Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[Bible Highlighter]

Is punishment everlasting not just as everlasting as eternal life?

The "result of the punishment" has everlasting consequences.

Everlasting punishment is everlasting destruction.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 says it is everlasting destruction.

​

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).​

Something that meets destruction is no more.

The Wicked Shall Be No More:

Psalms 37:9-11 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.​

​

Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.​

What does “eternal judgment” mean in Hebrews 6:2? It’s pretty simple; God judges and the result is everlasting. Few traditionalists (i.e., Eternal Torment proponents), if any, argue that this verse teaches that God is continually judging for eternity, banging his gavel and repeatedly declaring saved or unsaved the same finite number of existent people. But wait a minute; it doesn’t say “the eternal results of judgment.” It says “eternal judgment.”

If a wicked person is destroyed or annihilated, the result of their punishment has eternal consequences.
It does not mean they will face eternal ongoing punishment.

I used to believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) and used to defend it once. But in time, as I studied Scripture more, I discovered that it was unbiblical and immoral. Nobody can make a real-life example to defend ECT to show how it is good and fair. I say this because Jesus accepted a real-life example from the Canaanite woman when she said that even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is punishment everlasting not just as everlasting as eternal life?

Please consider checking out my defense for Dualistic Conditional Immortality.

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

Introduction: I believe in “Dualistic Conditional Immortality,” and not “Traditional Conditional Immortality.” I used to believe in “Eternal Torment” (i.e. Eternal Conscious Torment) and even defended it at one time, but I have come to find this belief to be both unbiblical and immoral. I...

www.christianforums.com

May God bless you.

 

[Der Alte]

The "result of the punishment" has everlasting consequences.
Everlasting punishment is everlasting destruction.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 says it is everlasting destruction.

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).​

Something that meets destruction is no more.
***

Something that is "destroyed" no longer exists and is NOT "from the presence of the Lord" or anything else.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Explaining Revelation 14:11:​

​

10 “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:​

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”​

First, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Are we to assume that the city of Edom will burn for all eternity? Mystery Babylon will also have her smoke go up for ever and ever (Revelation 19:3). Are we to assume that the city of Mystery Babylon will be on fire and give smoke for all eternity? Jesus says Heaven and earth will pass away (Matthew 24:35), and Revelation 21:1 says, “for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; “. So it’s not possible for these cities that are on our current Earth to keep putting off smoke for all eternity (if the Earth will pass away).​

​

Second, I believe the words “and they have no rest day nor night” is switching back to the point in time within the Tribulation. In other words, verse 11 says that those who worship the beast will be destroyed like Edom was destroyed (using the Metaphor in Isaiah 34:10), and they will have no rest day or night while they are worshiping the beast within the time of the Great Tribulation. So Revelation 14:11 is not teaching Eternal Torment (Although somebody can easily conclude such an idea with a surface reading).​

​

What am I talking about?​

​

Well, here is my commentary on Revelation 14:9-11:​

​

Revelation 14:9-11​

9 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, [Present tense time during the Tribulation period]​

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:​

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever [Verse 10, and the beginning part here of verse 11 is a warning by the angel describing the future punishment of those who worship the beast. This temporary one-time punishment takes place after the judgment that is a singular event whereby they will eventually be destroyed] [Important Side Note: The “smoke of their torment going up forever” is the same as the cities of Edom, and Mystery Babylon; They will not last forever because the Earth will pass away as Jesus said]:​

​

Revelation 14:11 (continued):​

​

“…and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [Present time during the Tribulation period which describes the earthly living state of those who worship the beast]”​

​

Important Note:

The words in blue and red above in brackets is my commentary to the text.


Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do; I am merely posting the source links to show that I quoted them at certain times for the point of my article):
Where the Worm That Never Dies — Mark 9:48 - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Something that is "destroyed" no longer exists and is NOT "from the presence of the Lord" or anything else.

Yes, I do realize it can be read that way. I was not presenting an ironclad case for Conditional Immortality by mentioning that alone, my friend. Conditional Immortality is more systematic biblically speaking and it does not rest upon just one or two places in Scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

The "result of the punishment" has everlasting consequences.
Everlasting punishment is everlasting destruction.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 says it is everlasting destruction.

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).​

Something that meets destruction is no more.
The Wicked Shall Be No More:

Psalms 37:9-11 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.​

Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.​

What does “eternal judgment” mean in Hebrews 6:2? It’s pretty simple; God judges and the result is everlasting. Few traditionalists (i.e., Eternal Torment proponents), if any, argue that this verse teaches that God is continually judging for eternity, banging his gavel and repeatedly declaring saved or unsaved the same finite number of existent people. But wait a minute; it doesn’t say “the eternal results of judgment.” It says “eternal judgment.”
If a wicked person is destroyed or annihilated, the result of their punishment has eternal consequences.
It does not mean they will face eternal ongoing punishment.
I used to believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) and used to defend it once. But in time, as I studied Scripture more, I discovered that it was unbiblical and immoral. Nobody can make a real-life example to defend ECT to show how it is good and fair. I say this because Jesus accepted a real-life example from the Canaanite woman when she said that even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table.

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything by quoting selective vss. out-of-context. Since when are we fallible mortals told to find real-life examples to explain scripture?
Here is how I understand scripture.
The last book, last chapter.

Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the unclean still be unclean, and the righteous still do right, and the holy be holy still.”...​

No more death, no more salvation only "Let the evildoer still do evil, and the unclean still be unclean," Where are the evildoers and unclean?

Rev22:15 But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.​

The righteous are inside new Jerusalem outside the new Jerusalem are evildoers, unclean, dogs, sorcerers, sexually immoral, murderers, idolaters, and liars.

 

[Der Alte]

I was raised to believe in ECT as well and it serves no purpose. God has no delight in even the death of the wicked. So of course he wouldn't torture someone forever. When the bible is taken as a whole, it points to death, not life eternal in hell. Matthew 10:28 tells us that we are to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell. And Christ calls the Lake of Fire the 2nd death. Christ states those facts and I believe them.
And then after Judgement Day we will have a new heaven and earth and the former will be passed away.
I agree too that many people have left the faith or want no part of it because of this very doctrine and many hold on to the belief because they are scared at the possiblity of ECT.

My Bible has 31,102 vss. 2 vss, in support of your conclusion is not nearly enough.

 

[Der Alte]

***
The Wicked Shall Be No More:
Psalms 37:9-11 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

***​

Psalms 37:2
(2) For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.​

Happens in this life. "Cut down like grass" does not mean destruction.

Psalms 37:9
(9) For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.​

"evildoer shall all be cut off" "like grass" vs. 2,

Psalms 37:10
(10) For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.​

What happens in this life. The righteous will not be looking for the place of the wicked in paradise.

Psalms 37:14-15
(14) The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
(15) Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.​

The wicked being pierced by their own sword is not destruction.

Psalms 37:17
(17) For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.​

"The For the arms of the wicked shall be broken" is not destruction.

 

[DavidPT]

Explaining Revelation 14:11:​

​

10 “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:​

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”​

First, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Are we to assume that the city of Edom will burn for all eternity? Mystery Babylon will also have her smoke go up for ever and ever (Revelation 19:3). Are we to assume that the city of Mystery Babylon will be on fire and give smoke for all eternity? Jesus says Heaven and earth will pass away (Matthew 24:35), and Revelation 21:1 says, “for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; “. So it’s not possible for these cities that are on our current Earth to keep putting off smoke for all eternity (if the Earth will pass away).​

​

Second, I believe the words “and they have no rest day nor night” is switching back to the point in time within the Tribulation. In other words, verse 11 says that those who worship the beast will be destroyed like Edom was destroyed (using the Metaphor in Isaiah 34:10), and they will have no rest day or night while they are worshiping the beast within the time of the Great Tribulation. So Revelation 14:11 is not teaching Eternal Torment (Although somebody can easily conclude such an idea with a surface reading).​

​

What am I talking about?​

​

Well, here is my commentary on Revelation 14:9-11:​

​

Revelation 14:9-11​

9 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, [Present tense time during the Tribulation period]​

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:​

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever [Verse 10, and the beginning part here of verse 11 is a warning by the angel describing the future punishment of those who worship the beast. This temporary one-time punishment takes place after the judgment that is a singular event whereby they will eventually be destroyed] [Important Side Note: The “smoke of their torment going up forever” is the same as the cities of Edom, and Mystery Babylon; They will not last forever because the Earth will pass away as Jesus said]:​

​

Revelation 14:11 (continued):​

​

“…and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [Present time during the Tribulation period which describes the earthly living state of those who worship the beast]”​

​

Important Note:

The words in blue and red above in brackets is my commentary to the text.


Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do; I am merely posting the source links to show that I quoted them at certain times for the point of my article):
Where the Worm That Never Dies — Mark 9:48 - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality

To add to what you submitted, maybe you will agree, maybe you won't.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Most, if not all, ECT proponents, insist the fire and brimstone recorded here, that this is meaning the LOF. Let's do some comparing with something recorded in Ezekiel 38 first, before we have to admit they are correct that the LOF is meant.

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

I'm not going to get into the details, but by comparing with Revelation 16 and the events pertaining to the 7th vial, it is apparent that these two verses I submitted from Ezekiel 38, that they are involving the 7th vial of wrath. Why this might matter, note what Revelation 14:10 is involving---the presence of the Lamb. Then note what Ezekiel 38:20 is involving---my presence

Then note what else Revelation 14:10 is involving---shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. Then note what Ezekiel 38:22 is involving---I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain---fire, and brimstone.

IOW, what they are being tormented with at the time, is not the LOF, it is fire and brimstone being rained down on them during the 7th vial of wrath. If one applies the LOF to Revelation 14:10 and then applies ECT to that, the text indicates that when they are being tormented with fire and brimstone, it's during the presence of the Lamb. Should we then assume something preposterous, that instead of Jesus dwelling in the new Jerusalem forever at some point, He is instead going to be present at the LOF forever in order for those being tormented with fire and brimstone(allegedly the LOF), to be tormented in His presence? After all, the text never says they are tormented with fire and brimstone while not in His presence.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything by quoting selective vss. out-of-context.

Which I believe is what ECT does. But we can agree to disagree.

Since when are we fallible mortals told to find real-life examples to explain scripture?

2 Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness.

We find in Scripture how the Canaanite woman expanded upon Jesus’ parable with an extended parable of her own. She told Jesus that even the dogs can eat from the crumbs of the table. Jesus did not rebuke the woman and say that only He can make parables or real world examples. No, no. Most certainly not. Jesus commended the woman for her great faith. The woman illustrated a truth that is found in the real world that relates to a spiritual truth. This means that we can also do the same thing because…. ALL Scripture if profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16). Seeing that ECT cannot be demonstrated as being fair justice by the way of real world example like the Canaanite woman had made, we can conclude it is a false doctrine.

Here is how I understand scripture.
The last book, last chapter.

Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the unclean still be unclean, and the righteous still do right, and the holy be holy still.”...​

No more death, no more salvation only "Let the evildoer still do evil, and the unclean still be unclean," Where are the evildoers and unclean?

Rev22:15 But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.​

The righteous are inside new Jerusalem outside the new Jerusalem are evildoers, unclean, dogs, sorcerers, sexually immoral, murderers, idolaters, and liars.

Evil people will be outside the city of New Jerusalem while others will be cast into the Lake of Fire to be annihiated or destroyed. This is what we have to conclude because Isaiah 66:24 paints the picture of the AFTERMATH of what happens to the wicked. It shows how they are corpses or carcases. Corpses or carcases are NOT alive.

You are reading Revelation 22:15 with eternity in the verse when it does not say that they will be outside New Jerusalem being tortured alive for all eternity. It merely says they will be outside New Jerusalem. it does not describe their ultimate fate in this verse.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To add to what you submitted, maybe you will agree, maybe you won't.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Most, if not all, ECT proponents, insist the fire and brimstone recorded here, that this is meaning the LOF. Let's do some comparing with something recorded in Ezekiel 38 first, before we have to admit they are correct that the LOF is meant.

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

I'm not going to get into the details, but by comparing with Revelation 16 and the events pertaining to the 7th vial, it is apparent that these two verses I submitted from Ezekiel 38, that they are involving the 7th vial of wrath. Why this might matter, note what Revelation 14:10 is involving---the presence of the Lamb. Then note what Ezekiel 38:20 is involving---my presence

Then note what else Revelation 14:10 is involving---shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. Then note what Ezekiel 38:22 is involving---I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain---fire, and brimstone.

IOW, what they are being tormented with at the time, is not the LOF, it is fire and brimstone being rained down on them during the 7th vial of wrath. If one applies the LOF to Revelation 14:10 and then applies ECT to that, the text indicates that when they are being tormented with fire and brimstone, it's during the presence of the Lamb. Should we then assume something preposterous, that instead of Jesus dwelling in the new Jerusalem forever at some point, He is instead going to be present at the LOF forever in order for those being tormented with fire and brimstone(allegedly the LOF), to be tormented in His presence? After all, the text never says they are tormented with fire and brimstone while not in His presence.

The ending vial judgments involve Christ’s return.
After Christ’s return in destroying the nations, and the Earth being purified by fire, the 1,000 year of Christ will happen.
Satan is loosed out of the bottomless pit after the 1,000 reign of Christ. So it seems unlikely that Satan will be judged before the 1,000 reign of Christ (seeing he is going to cause more problems later).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Psalms 37:2​

(2) For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.​

Happens in this life. "Cut down like grass" does not mean destruction.

Psalms 37:9​

(9) For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.​

"evildoer shall all be cut off" "like grass" vs. 2,

Psalms 37:10​

(10) For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.​

What happens in this life. The righteous will not be looking for the place of the wicked in paradise.

Psalms 37:14-15​

(14) The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.​

(15) Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.​

The wicked being pierced by their own sword is not destruction.

Psalms 37:17​

(17) For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.​

"The For the arms of the wicked shall be broken" is not destruction.

Your approach is like a little toy tank trying to shoot plastic missiles at only one link in a metal chain. As I said, Conditional Immortality is a systematic approach involving the Bible.

Although I know you are aware of this thread, for our other readers, my systematic defense on Conditional Immortality can be found here:

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

Introduction: I believe in “Dualistic Conditional Immortality,” and not “Traditional Conditional Immortality.” I used to believe in “Eternal Torment” (i.e. Eternal Conscious Torment) and even defended it at one time, but I have come to find this belief to be both unbiblical and immoral. I...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Der Alte]

We find in Scripture how the Canaanite woman expanded upon Jesus’ parable with an extended parable of her own. She told Jesus that even the dogs can eat from the crumbs of the table. Jesus did not rebuke the woman and say that only He can make parables or real world examples. No, no. Most certainly not. Jesus commended the woman for her great faith. The woman illustrated a truth that is found in the real world that relates to a spiritual truth. This means that we can also do the same thing because…. ALL Scripture if profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16). Seeing that ECT cannot be demonstrated as being fair justice by the way of real world example like the Canaanite woman had made, we can conclude it is a false doctrine.

While many vss. can be validated by real world examples, I am not aware of any vs(s) which command us to validate everything by real world examples.

You are reading Revelation 22:15 with eternity in the verse when it does not say that they will be outside New Jerusalem being tortured alive for all eternity. It merely says they will be outside New Jerusalem. it does not describe their ultimate fate in this verse.

You didn't read Rev 21:4 and 21:8

The parallel passage for Luke 13:28 is Matthew 7:13-19. They will be cut down and thrown into the fire according to Matthew 7:19. We know that fires consume and burn things up.

God is not bound by our puny understanding of physics. Fire will do what God wants it to do as long as he wants it to. The burning bush that Moses saw was not consumed by the fire. Shadrach, Meshach and Abnego were not harmed by the fiery furnace although it was heated 7 times hotter than usual and killed the Babylonian soldier outside the furnace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While many vss. can be validated by real world examples, I am not aware of any vs(s) which command us to validate everything by real world examples.

Do you believe the discussion between Jesus and the Canaanite woman is Scripture?
If so, then it is profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness, according to 2 Timothy 3:16.
It does not matter if It is a command or not. 2 Timothy 3:16 is saying that ALL Scripture is profitable. So if the Canaanite woman can make a parable and Jesus accepted that real-world example, then we can make real-world examples to illustrate truth too. But of course, you are in shutdown mode, so anything that attacks ECT must be ignored or shut down to protect your belief in ECT at all costs. I mean, why would you want to defend God by having Him torture people unjustly? Is it because it is written? Well, axe murderers can probably misquote the Bible as they kill their victims, but that does not mean they are correct. We know that what they are doing is wrong and immoral. But I believe it is worse when we say that God will do wrong when He will not. I can imagine many today being rebuked by God because they thought God was unspokenly into justice that is not fair (Which is what ECT is, and you know it).

You didn't read Rev 21:4 and 21:8

I am already aware of these verses. Not sure how they defend ECT.
Actually, Revelation 21:8 defends Conditional Immortality because it says the Lake of Fire is called the Second Death. For it to be called a Second Death, it needs to be related to the First Death (Which is when we die physically on this Earth). Revelation 21:4 defends Conditional Immortality because it says there will be no more sorrow or pain. This means that ECT is disqualified based on this verse because, according to ECT, the wicked will be in sorrow and pain for all eternity (Which contradicts Revelation 21:4).

God is not bound by our puny understanding of physics. Fire will do what God wants it to do as long as he wants it to. The burning bush that Moses saw was not consumed by the fire. Shadrach, Meshach and Abnego were not harmed by the fiery furnace although it was heated 7 times hotter than usual and killed the Babylonian soldier outside the furnace.

But this is in context to God and believers. The fire does no harm to them because they are good or faithful. You need to show an example where wicked people on Earth are in the fire, and yet they are not consumed to prove ECT. Try as you may; you will not find such an example. Now, the rich man in Luke 16 is probably the only example of a man being tormented by fire in hell, but it can be read in such a way that the HEAT of the flame nearby him was tormenting him. If the rich man was in an actual flame, it was not like an earthly flame because if it were... he would have been screaming too loudly in pain to be able even to carry on a normal discussion with Abraham.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *
But this is in context to God and believers. The fire protects them because they are good. You need to show an example where wicked people on Earth are in the fire, and yet they are not consumed to prove ECT. Try as you may; you will not find such an example.

You're still making assumptions based on one example. Moses, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were believers. One isolated example, or 2 or 3, does not a rule make. I don't respond well to replies in the category of "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" The rich man was dead but in Hades he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham and Lazarus and he was tormented in flames. Abraham told him he could not leave the place he was in. I'm waiting for you to dismiss this although you have only cited one example in support of your theory.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're still making assumptions based on one example. Moses, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were believers. One isolated example, or 2 or 3, does not a rule make. I don't respond well to replies in the category of "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" The rich man was dead but in Hades he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham and Lazarus and he was tormented in flames. Abraham told him he could not leave the place he was in. I'm waiting for you to dismiss this although you have only cited one example in support of your theory.

Again, you cannot use God and or believers not being harmed by flames as a case for ECT because ECT is about the punishment of the wicked and not God or the saints. They are totally unrelated. The life and fate of the saint is different than the life and fate of the wicked.

As for the rich man:

In Luke 16:19-31, what folks fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any Earth-like flames. How so? Well, if the Rich-man was engulfed entirely by Earth-like flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would have been screaming too loudly in pain to even hear Abraham (if such were the case). If he was able to hold down his pain of screaming (for a moment), he would be shouting to Abraham for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out. But does the text say the rich man was screaming? Surely not. Yet, this is how people today depict the wicked in hell. In fact, if a person was being engulfed by flames today in the real world, how likely are they to carry on a normal conversation with you? They wouldn't because they would be screaming too loudly from the pain.​

​

So we are faced with one of two possibilities here:​

​

Possibility #1. In Luke 16:24, when the Rich-man said, "...I am tormented in this flame," the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was either nearby him or in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman," - Genesis 2:23). Adam was not referring to his own flesh, with the word "this", but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, it was the heat of the flame in front of the rich-man that made him uncomfortable or tormented.​

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Possibility #2. The rich-man was in actual flames but it was not an Earthly flame to cause him any kind of extreme pain whereby he could carry on a normal conversation instead of screaming. The flame would have to be very mild in discomfort or it did not cause the same level of pain as a real flame would (as we know it).​

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Now, do not misunderstand me. I am not trying to minimize the true horrible nature of hell as we read about it in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Hell is bad. I believe hell is an extremely horrible place. We should warn others not to go there, and point them to the saving grace, and love of our Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Surely the rich-man was not putting on an actor’s performance when he desired to warn his brothers about such a place. Hell is bad. Really bad. Nobody should want to go there. It is a place of torments. But we should not also paint a picture of hell that the Bible does not paint or teach, either. Some make hell out to be something that it is not specifically stated (Portraying it as an extreme torture chamber of men and women screaming uncontrollably). We simply do not know that this is so. If the Lord wanted to let us know that hell is a place of extreme torture and pain, and screaming, He would have given us this description in Scripture as such, but He didn’t. I believe it is well, when we do not go beyond what is written (Especially when that addition leans towards the negative side). Sure, we may guess as to what may be or not, but to officially say that hell is like this or that when the Bible has not said so, is to add to Scripture something that is not there. So please understand that even my explanations on what is happening to the rich man is not a hardcore facts in Scripture but mere possibilities to give comfort about what we know involving our Lord’s goodness and fair justice.​

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Side Note:

BTW ~ You appeared to ignore my points that defend Conditional Immortality involving Revelation 21:4, and Revelation 21:8.
What say thou?

 

[JulieB67]

So we are faced with one of two possibilities here:Possibility #1. In Luke 16:24, when the Rich-man said, "...I am tormented in this flame," the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was either nearby him or in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman," - Genesis 2:23). Adam was not referring to his own flesh, with the word "this", but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, it was the heat of the flame in front of the rich-man that made him uncomfortable or tormented.Possibility #2. The rich-man was in actual flames but it was not an Earthly flame to cause him any kind of extreme pain whereby he could carry on a normal conversation instead of screaming. The flame would have to be very mild in discomfort or it did not cause the same level of pain as a real flame would (as we know it).

I think the main thing is that we know that the people on that side of the gulf are in a kind of torment because they know and can see the other side.

But I agree they are not on fire at this point. That comes into play at Judgement Day with the actual Lake of Fire and as they bible states, they will pretty much be stubble -no more. We both agree on that point.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think the main thing is that we know that the people on that side of the gulf are in a kind of torment because they know and can see the other side.

But I agree they are not on fire at this point. That comes into play at Judgement Day with the actual Lake of Fire and as they bible states, they will pretty much be stubble -no more. We both agree on that point.

Wow. You are the first believer I ran into that believes in “Dualistic Conditional Immortality” like myself. Very cool. Praise the Lord.
Most who believe in “Conditional Immortality” (i.e., the Lake of Fire destroys the wicked) tend to believe that hell is not literal and it is just a metaphor for the grave (of which I disagree with). Hell is described as a real place in Luke 16:19-31 and sounds very literal and real. Yet, we do know there are many verses that teach that God will destroy or annihilate the wicked in the Lake of Fire after the final Judgment. God is into fair justice. God is good.

 

[Der Alte]

As for the rich man:

In Luke 16:19-31, what folks fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any Earth-like flames. How so? Well, if the Rich-man was engulfed entirely by Earth-like flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would have been screaming too loudly in pain to even hear Abraham (if such were the case). If he was able to hold down his pain of screaming (for a moment), he would be shouting to Abraham for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out. But does the text say the rich man was screaming? Surely not. Yet, this is how people today depict the wicked in hell. In fact, if a person was being engulfed by flames today in the real world, how likely are they to carry on a normal conversation with you? They wouldn't because they would be screaming too loudly from the pain.​

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Your reasoning is faulty. I believe Jesus vs, an anonymous person online. Jesus said the man was in hades, which was a name for a place we call hell, and he said he was being tormented in flames and begged Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue. Do you think a person in that circumstance would be thinking rationally or logically? As I said the only 5 ECF who quoted the story considered it to be factual. Take it or leave it. Jesus would not have told the story if it did not have some application to his immediate audience and thus to us. And that doesn't mean simply ignore it.

 

[Der Alte]

***
Side Note:
BTW ~ You appeared to ignore my points that defend Conditional Immortality involving Revelation 21:4, and Revelation 21:8.
What say thou?

I addressed your 2 "points" before more than once. Please show me from scripture that John got the chronology wrong and Rev 21:4 and 21:8 should be before Rev 20:11-15. John's immediate audience the 7 churches of Asia [modern Turkey] could only understand it exactly as written. They didn't have any denomination assumptions/presuppositions.