Eternal punishment

[d taylor]

Rom 6:23 "the wages of sin is death" - not "eternal life'
Rom 2:4-16 makes it very clear that some get life and others get wrath and destruction.
Rev 20 makes it clear that the lost are judged according to their deeds - then tossed into the lake of fire.

Show me a verse stating the wages of sin is eternal spiritual death. The wages of sin is physical death.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Sin is primarily, and that by an infinite degree, against God. And the least significant sin is 'cosmic treason'.

"Against you only have I sinned." —King David (said to God)

While what you wrote is true it is not an answer to the question posed in the original post.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

nothing that man can do -- merits infinite torture.

I knew such would be the view of many Seventh Day Adventist posts. And I wasn't trying to attract comment from a Church's teaching but your views are welcome, I was looking more for comments from those who attend churches that do teach the existence and reality of hell as eternal.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Hating God. Rejecting God. Rebelling against the free gift.
People who just do not want to be with Him and receive the goodness. Should He force them against their will? They would complain about that too. Another way to look at it is this. Would God send His only begotten son and require Him to die a terrible torturous death for no reason?
Why people refuse His free gift and entrance to His Kingdom is a true mystery to me. All you need do is repent and receive His gift.
They go where they want.

 

[BobRyan]

I knew such would be the view of many Seventh Day Adventist posts. And I wasn't trying to attract comment from a Church's teaching but your views are welcome

Well I do believe in a real literal hell with real literal torment of real body and soul after a real literal 1000 years in Rev 20 and the real literal 2nd resurrection mentioned there.

(I find it interesting that at the mere quote of those texts - your response is of the form 'That is Seventh-day Adventist' as if only they would quote those texts -- on such a thread as this)

The question of "infinite torture" for "finite crime" is the one where we differ.. as I noted here -

nothing that man can do -- merits infinite torture.

Man can be punished "according to his deeds" -- according to the Bible.

Some people suppose that there will be "infinite torture for all" the lost in the future -- others believe the Luke 12 text that there are degrees of punishment where some suffer a lot and others little.

Luke 12: 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

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Some believe that body and soul will be tortured in fiery hell but never "Destroyed" so that infinite torture can be had by all the lost

Others believe that after some time of torment "God will destroy both body and soul in fiery hell"

Matt 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

==============================================

Some believe that Lucifer fell from heaven and became known by the name "Satan" - and that as Lucifer he was "a covering cherub" standing at the throne of God as you see the cherubs depicted on the cover of the Ark of the Covenant in the OT.

Ezek 28
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

=================

Some believe that the lake of fire judgment "devours/consumes" the wicked lost

Rev 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

There we find this

Some people suppose that there will be "infinite torture for all" the lost in the future -- others believe the Luke 12 text that there are degrees of punishment where some suffer a lot and others little.​

​

Luke 12: 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.​

​

another one that some say "only an SDA would quote"​

​

​

Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die"​

​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Hating God. Rejecting God. Rebelling against the free gift.
People who just do not want to be with Him and receive the goodness. Should He force them against their will? They would complain about that too. Another way to look at it is this. Would God send His only begotten son and require Him to die a terrible torturous death for no reason?
Why people refuse His free gift and entrance to His Kingdom is a true mystery to me. All you need do is repent and receive His gift.
They go where they want.

Okay, that's your theology but it isn't an answer to the original post.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Ask yourself, what crime - humanly speaking - could a human being commit that would warrant eternal punishment involving the discomfort of fire and torments of some kind?

It is an illogical and out of context question. There is no crime, humanly speaking, that warrants anything beyond death. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life. There is a just recompense of reward. The hypothetical question has to be based in reality if order for it to make sense. There is no answer because the scenario does not and cannot exist in reality. To my knowledge nobody has the power to execute eternal fire and torments. So the question cannot be answered because there is no question.
"In what scenario would a sphere be a cube?"

 

[Dan Perez]

Looks like you do not understand what causes a person to end up going to the lake of fire. It sure is not sin.

In Hebrews 10:29 it reads , Of how much worse punishment , do you suppose , will be thought worthy who TRAMPLED the Son of God underfoot , counted the BLOOD of the COVENANT by which He was SANCTIFIED a common thing , and INSULATED the SPIRIT of GRACE .

It is obvious to me , that Hebrews is speaking to Israel , who rejected their MESSIAH and CRUCIFIED Him .

#1 WORSE Punishment

#2 Trampled thw Son of God Underfoot

#3 Counted the BLOOD A COMMON THING

#4 And INSULLTED the SPIRIT OF GRACE and counted the NEW COVENANT as nothing .

dan p

 

[Servus]

Ask yourself, what crime - humanly speaking - could a human being commit that would warrant eternal punishment involving the discomfort of fire and torments of some kind?

Humans can't inflict eternal punishment. In human terms punishment involving discomfort of fire and torments of some kind, is going to end when that person dies. The harsher the conditions of that kind of punishment are, the more quickly the person being punished is going to die. For example, someone being burned at the stake.

 

[d taylor]

In Hebrews 10:29 it reads , Of how much worse punishment , do you suppose , will be thought worthy who TRAMPLED the Son of God underfoot , counted the BLOOD of the COVENANT by which He was SANCTIFIED a common thing , and INSULATED the SPIRIT of GRACE .

It is obvious to me , that Hebrews is speaking to Israel , who rejected their MESSIAH and CRUCIFIED Him .

#1 WORSE Punishment

#2 Trampled thw Son of God Underfoot

#3 Counted the BLOOD A COMMON THING

#4 And INSULLTED the SPIRIT OF GRACE and counted the NEW COVENANT as nothing .

dan p

It is a really simple answer, sadly many people (christian identifiers) can not state the simple answer.
The person sent to the lake of fire never received God's free gift of Eternal Life by faith in Jesus.

Simply put they never believed in Jesus for the life of God

 

[Blade]

What crime? Christ the lamb already died rose AMEN! Praise God most are blind as Christ said if you were blind you would have no sin you say you see your sin remains. Most are blind. Far easier to be saved then lost..

 

[Dan Perez]

Show me a verse stating the wages of sin is eternal spiritual death. The wages of sin is physical death.

I like 2 books .

#1 Is Rom 6:23 that the wages of SIN is death .

#2 The other is ECC 12:7 ,

#1 Then SHALL / SUB stem is QAL , IN THE IMPERFECT TENSE , SINGULAR .

#2 THE DUST / APAR is a definite article and is pointing to the next Hebrew word , Return .

#3 RETURN / SUB , stem is QAL , IMPERFECT TENSE , also SINGULAR .

#4 And that spirit SHALL RETURN / SUB , stem is also , stem is QAL , and in the Hebrew IMPERFECT TENSE , and also SINGULAR .

#5 Return to God that GAVE IT , also in the QAL , PERFECT TENSE , and SINGULAR .


This means at death that the BODY goes to a GRAVE .

The SPIRIT goes back to CHRIST that gave it .

And the SOUL either goes to PARADISE to saved Jews OR others go to HADES .

Gentiles go to HADES , and go to an INTERMDIATE STATE , 2 Cor 1-4 .

dan p

 

[BobRyan]

Gentiles go to HADES , and go to an INTERMDIATE STATE , 2 Cor 1-4 .

dan p

2 Cor 1-4 would be four chapters.

Did you mean 2 Cor 1:4?
If so , I don't find an "intermediate state" in that verse nor in the first four chapters.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

2 Cor 1-4 would be four chapters.

Did you mean 2 Cor 1:4?
If so , I don't find an "intermediate state" in that verse nor in the first four chapters.

I think he didn't type the chapter number. It is likely this passage

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly dwelling, a tent, should be destroyed, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal in heaven. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to be further clothed with our heavenly habitation 3 if indeed, when we have taken it off, we shall not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent we groan and are weighed down, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.​

 

[BobRyan]

I think he didn't type the chapter number. It is likely this passage

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly dwelling, a tent, should be destroyed, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal in heaven. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to be further clothed with our heavenly habitation 3 if indeed, when we have taken it off, we shall not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent we groan and are weighed down, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.​

Good point. That is the intermediate state of being "unclothed" -- not having this earthly body and not having the resurrected body

 

[BobRyan]

In Hebrews 10:29 it reads , Of how much worse punishment , do you suppose , will be thought worthy who TRAMPLED the Son of God underfoot , counted the BLOOD of the COVENANT by which He was SANCTIFIED a common thing , and INSULATED the SPIRIT of GRACE .

It is obvious to me , that Hebrews is speaking to Israel , who rejected their MESSIAH and CRUCIFIED Him .

No doubt that will be a problem for "Them" --

But let's take a closer look at Heb 10

23 Let’s hold firmly to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let’s consider how to encourage one another in love and good deeds, 25 not abandoning our own meeting together, as is the habit of some people, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

The US, and the WE in those vs - is specific to those i n the Christian faith and includes Paul.

 

[BobRyan]

Hating God. Rejecting God. Rebelling against the free gift.
People who just do not want to be with Him and receive the goodness. Should He force them against their will? They would complain about that too. Another way to look at it is this. Would God send His only begotten son and require Him to die a terrible torturous death for no reason?
Why people refuse His free gift and entrance to His Kingdom is a true mystery to me. All you need do is repent and receive His gift.
They go where they want.

amen

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No doubt that will be a problem for "Them" --

But let's take a closer look at Heb 10

23 Let’s hold firmly to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let’s consider how to encourage one another in love and good deeds, 25 not abandoning our own meeting together, as is the habit of some people, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

The US, and the WE in those vs - is specific to those i n the Christian faith and includes Paul.

You might get a better context with Hebrews 10:19-39, it is a paragraph I believe.

Hebrews 10:19-39

19 Why then, brethren, we can enter the sanctuary with confidence through the blood of Christ.​

20 He has opened up for us a new, a living approach, by way of the veil, I mean, his mortality.✻​

21 A great priest is ours, who has dominion over God’s house.​

22 Let us come forward with sincere hearts in the full assurance of the faith, our guilty consciences purified by sprinkling, our bodies washed clean in hallowed water.✻​

23 Do not let us waver in acknowledging the hope we cherish; we have a promise from one who is true to his word.​

24 Let us keep one another in mind, always ready with incitements to charity and to acts of piety,​

25 not abandoning, as some do, our common assembly, but encouraging one another; all the more, as you see the great day drawing nearer.​

26 If we go on sinning wilfully, when once the full knowledge of the truth has been granted to us, we have no further sacrifice for sin to look forward to;✻​

27 nothing but a terrible expectation of judgement, a fire that will eagerly consume the rebellious.​

28 Let a man be convicted by two or three witnesses of defying the law of Moses, and he dies, without hope of mercy.✻​

29 What of the man who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has reckoned the blood of the covenant, that blood which sanctified him, as a thing unclean, mocked at the Spirit that brought him grace? Will not he incur a punishment much more severe?​

30 It is one we know well, who has told us, Vengeance is for me, I will repay; and again, The Lord will judge his people.✻​

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

32 Remember those early days, when the light first came to you, and the hard probation of suffering you went through.​

33 There were times when you yourselves were publicly exposed to calumny and persecution; there was a time when you took part with those who had the same path to tread.​

34 You shewed your sympathy with those who were in bonds; and when you were robbed of your goods you took it cheerfully, as men who knew that a higher, a more lasting good was yours.​

35 Do not throw away that confidence of yours, with its rich hope of reward;​

36 you still need endurance, if you are to attain the prize God has promised to those who do his will.​

37 Only a brief moment, now, before he who is coming will be here; he will not linger on the way.​

38 It is faith that brings life to the man whom I accept as justified; if he shrinks back, he shall win no favour with me.✻​

39 Not for us to shrink away, and be lost; it is for us to have faith, and save our souls.​

 

[BobRyan]

You might get a better context with Hebrews 10:19-31, it is a paragraph I believe.

or the entire chapter?

I am not arguing against reading the entire chapter.

Here is a key part of that chapter 10

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,​

​

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering,
But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book)
To do Your will, O God.’”​

​

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second.​

​

So that is the end of the sacrificial system and so also the role of earthly priests in administering those sacrifices as Heb 7 also pointed out previously

​

10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.​

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The once for all time - sacrifice of Christ completed at the cross is the point in that verse above. Not an ongoing one, not one we can recreate

​

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies are made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.​

​

Not repeated "offering" but rather "once for all" -- by "ONE offering" not many times repeated - but once offered. And then Jesus "sits down" which means no more participation at all in that sacrifice in making it , in repeating it in offering it up to God as He did on the cross (on the altar of burnt offering symbolically as is the case with all sin offerings according to Heb 7)

​

15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,​

BTW - I appreciate these details in your verses that you selected out of the chapter -

Hebrews 10:19-39

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let’s hold firmly to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let’s consider how to encourage one another in love and good deeds, 25 not abandoning our own meeting together, as is the habit of some people, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.​

IN that example (as noted in my previous post with other verses in the same chapter) - the "we", the "us" and "our" are fellow Christians , believers. And the point is to persevere in the right path - so it argues against leaving it.

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?​

​

This section above is that same example above where those who are forgiven and saved and on the right path - fall into rebellion, turning against God and choosing rebellion against the Word of God instead

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30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through insults and distress, and partly by becoming companions with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better and lasting possession.​

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So here we have examples of fellow Christians doing the right thing, saved and being on the right path in vs 26-27

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35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.​

37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one will live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.​

39 But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith for the safekeeping of the soul​

Paul's warning is specifically to the group he is writing to - those on the right path being warned against falling away.
"shrinks back" is very specifically identifying someone doing the right thing who then "shrinks back" from that right course from that approved condition. Instead of speaking to the "never saved" or "never on the right path" person who "Falls away from doing the wrong thing" it is speaking to the person on the right path who are in the right condition failing to continue in that right path, right condition before God and instead "Shrinking back" --

 

[Oseas]

It is an illogical and out of context question. There is no crime, humanly speaking, that warrants anything beyond death. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life. There is a just recompense of reward. The hypothetical question has to be based in reality if order for it to make sense. There is no answer because the scenario does not and cannot exist in reality. To my knowledge nobody has the power to execute eternal fire and torments. So the question cannot be answered because there is no question.
"In what scenario would a sphere be a cube?"

JESUS said: Matthew 10:28 - Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, understand? self-executting, understand?? Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblock, not from GOD's perspective.

We know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the wonderful and glorious Kingdom of GOD that is established in this current millennium, the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day, the LORD's Day.

Matthew 25:41 and 46 -
41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting FIRE, prepared for the Devil and his messengers: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life Eternal. (Don't you know that the beginning of sorrows-Matthew 24:3-8- , precedes the final and everlasting chastisement? Be aware that the everlasting punishment is the continuation of the period of sorrows-Mat.24:3-8- , by the way it is already running, understand? yes, it is already running, and the eternal punishment is the continuation of it, be aware that there will not be a gap / interval, and it will never stop, it's for ever. Get ready.)

Revelation 11:15-18 -

15 - And the seventh angel sounded (seventh voice/ seventh message/seventh wind is sounded, seventh GOD's trumpet) ; and there were(there will be) great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

17 ... We give thee thanks, O Lord GOD Almighty, which are, and was, and are to come; because thou has taken to thee thy great Power, and has reigned. (Remember: JESUS said: All Power is given unto me in heaven and in earth - Matthew 28:18.)

18 And the nations were (will be) angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The Word is GOD, understand? Self-executting, understand? Think about it.

Be careful or then get ready