Eternal punishment

[BobRyan]

JESUS said: Matthew 10:28 - Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Good point - it is God not man that "Destroys BOTH" body and soul in fiery hell. And this is compared to the first death where the body is killed but not the soul. Universalism does not survive this.

We know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the wonderful and glorious Kingdom of GOD

Amen! That 1 Cor 6 text written to the Christian church , reproves them or their errors and warns them that engaging in such does not get one "heaven" as the result. Universalism does not survive that text.

Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die"

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 25:41 and 46 -
41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting FIRE, prepared for the Devil and his messengers: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life Eternal.

Indeed the destruction of both body and soul in that second death lake of fire in Rev 20 is an everlasting state of destruction not of life but of "second death" as John calls it. The literal fire and brimstone of the literal lake of fire that fully and completely destroys "both body and soul" without any return to life. That sentence is never revoked , repaired, recovered from.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Good point - it is God not man that "Destroys BOTH" body and soul in fiery hell.

Is it your view that "destroy" means obliterate? I believe it means to degrade to complete ruin, or just "ruin" not obliterate.

Matthew 10:28 And there is no need to fear those who kill the body, but have no means of killing the soul; fear him more, who has the power to ruin body and soul in hell.

 

[BobRyan]

Is it your view that "destroy" means obliterate?

1. The text says "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul" Matt 10:28 speaking of first death.
2. then the text says God does more than that - he "destroys both bod and soul" in fiery hell. I don't know of anyone who says that our physical bodies can survive being destroyed in fire and brimstone. But that is not the only reason for this view
3. Destroy - is what we find in Luke 17 regarding Sodom and so also in 2 Peter 2:6 'by reducing them to ashes'

Luke 17:29 apollumi
“ but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:6
6 “and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,

I believe it means to degrade to complete ruin, or just "ruin"

reduce to ashes - qualifies apparently as we see in the texts above.

I don't know of any parsing of terms in scripture such that "reduce to ashes but not obliterate" is even "a thing" - I am guessing you will probably agree with this point.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

2 Peter 2:6
6 “and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,

What are these ashes from? The people and the buildings. No mention is made of souls being reduced to ashes.

What is a destroyed soul? I believe it is a soul in ruins, cut off from God, from the source of eternal life, and left with just the ruins of life.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

JESUS said: Matthew 10:28 - Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, understand? self-executting, understand?? Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblock, not from GOD's perspective.

We know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the wonderful and glorious Kingdom of GOD that is established in this current millennium, the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day, the LORD's Day.

Matthew 25:41 and 46 -
41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting FIRE, prepared for the Devil and his messengers: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life Eternal. (Don't you know that the beginning of sorrows-Matthew 24:3-8- , precedes the final and everlasting chastisement? Be aware that the everlasting punishment is the continuation of the period of sorrows-Mat.24:3-8- , by the way it is already running, understand? yes, it is already running, and the eternal punishment is the continuation of it, be aware that there will not be a gap / interval, and it will never stop, it's for ever. Get ready.)

Revelation 11:15-18 -

15 - And the seventh angel sounded (seventh voice/ seventh message/seventh wind is sounded, seventh GOD's trumpet) ; and there were(there will be) great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

17 ... We give thee thanks, O Lord GOD Almighty, which are, and was, and are to come; because thou has taken to thee thy great Power, and has reigned. (Remember: JESUS said: All Power is given unto me in heaven and in earth - Matthew 28:18.)

18 And the nations were (will be) angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The Word is GOD, understand? Self-executting, understand? Think about it.

Be careful or then get ready

You misunderstood the OP and my post. I was clearly saying no HUMAN has the power to send people to hell and eternal fire and torment. That was the question in the post. That was what I was responding too,
Good scriptures by the way.
Love the word.

 

[BobRyan]

What are these ashes from? The people and the buildings. No mention is made of souls being reduced to ashes.

The problem is your assumption that 'destroy" cannot possibly refer to something so utterly complete as "reducing to ashes" - annihilate etc rather you insist that "still functioning" is what is the result of destroying something. That is a huge inference not supported by the context where we clearly see the end result of 'destroy' being the very sort of non-functioning reduced to ashes ending that you seem to argue cannot possibly be the case.

 

[BobRyan]

What is a destroyed soul?

Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die"

Is one Bible example of Matt 10:28 "destroy both body AND soul"

So we have a direct contrast between first death (of both the wicked and the righteous) where they "cannot kill the soul" in Matt 10:28 with the second death result of "destroy BOTH body AND soul" where "the soul that sins will die" Ezek 18:4

IF whatever view one holds requires them to insert a lot of linguistic gymnastics in there so as to rescue their preference - well so be it. But it is not as if we cannot see it.

 

[Freth]

Where does it say the ashes are people; the wicked? Malachi 4.

Malachi 4​

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1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.​

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2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.​

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3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.​

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4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.​

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5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:​

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6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.​

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

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Amazing how many probably 85% to 90% of people in the christian religion. Focus on sin as the reason a person ends up in the lake of fire. Even in light of crystal clear verses that state Jesus has taken away the sin of the whole world for unbelievers and believers.

Sin is not the reason a person ends up in the lake of fire!

A person ends up in the lake of fire because they reject the salvation that God offers through the finished work of Jesus on the Cross. By rejecting Jesus, the person aligns him or herself with the devil and because the devil and his angels are going to be thrown into the lake of fire, all those who have joined him in his rebellion against Christ will go there with him.

 

[d taylor]

A person ends up in the lake of fire because they reject the salvation that God offers through the finished work of Jesus on the Cross. By rejecting Jesus, the person aligns him or herself with the devil and because the devil and his angels are going to be thrown into the lake of fire, all those who have joined him in his rebellion against Christ will go there with him.

They go because they never believed in Jesus so they never received The Life of God. Which God offers anyone, who will believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

They go because they never believed in Jesus so they never received The Life of God. Which God offers anyone, who will believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

Basically the same thing. Unbelief is disobedience to God's instruction to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" and disobedience is basically rebellion., which is what Satan did.

 

[d taylor]

Basically the same thing. Unbelief is disobedience to God's instruction to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" and disobedience is basically rebellion., which is what Satan did.

But some of these (who do not have The Life of God) are committed church people. Who by faulty teaching have trusted in their acts of obedience (repentance, baptism, saying a prayer, etc...) to God. The object of their faith has been misplaced.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The problem is your assumption that 'destroy" cannot possibly refer to something so utterly complete as "reducing to ashes" ...

I asked if you think destroy means obliterate with regard to a soul. Do you? My question is not about physical ashes left from bodies and structures.

 

[BobRyan]

I asked if you think destroy means obliterate with regard to a soul. Do you? My question is not about physical ashes left from bodies and structures.

My response is that scripture shows that the extent for the term " apollumi" -- destroy, gets to the END of something as in "ashes". You seem to be asking if "reducing to ashes is the same as obliterate" --

Suffice it to point out that in the Bible "Destroy" does allow for ending, a complete end, as in "reduce to ashes". This is irrefutable.

Luke 17:29 apollumi
“ but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:6
6 “and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,

============================

And apparently we both agree that God "Destroys BOTH body AND soul" in fiery hell

I simply point out that John calls that "the lake of fire" in Rev 20.

==========================

so there are one or two details I have posted that are not addressed --

Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die"

Is one Bible example of Matt 10:28 "destroy both body AND soul"

So we have a direct contrast between first death (of both the wicked and the righteous) where they "cannot kill the soul" in Matt 10:28 with the second death result of "destroy BOTH body AND soul" where "the soul that sins will die" Ezek 18:4

IF whatever view one holds requires them to insert a lot of linguistic gymnastics in there so as to rescue their preference - well so be it. But it is not as if we cannot see it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

They go because they never believed in Jesus so they never received The Life of God. Which God offers anyone, who will believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

Actually, the vast majority of mankind, who have never ever heard the name of Jesus Christ in their time on this earth are condemned simply because they never believed in Jesus, nor did they have the remotest possibility of believing in Jesus. They also never willfully chose to disbelieve in Jesus. Jesus simply did not exist in their experience.

 

[Oseas]

Good point - it is God not man that "Destroys BOTH" body and soul in fiery hell. And this is compared to the first death where the body is killed but not the soul. Universalism does not survive this.

The destruction of body and soul into the hell's fire is now, even in this beginning of this current millennium, the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day, the LORD's Day, according the Word-i.e. GOD, -self-executing-, as it was predicted. By allegory, the Word works as a watch, GOD's watch never stop, but never, since everlasting time.

Yes, the Word is GOD, Self-executing, Isaiah 43:13 - "Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?" Yeah, who will stop or prevent? The Word is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD, the invisible GOD. Great mystery.

Amen! That 1 Cor 6 text written to the Christian church , reproves them or their errors and warns them that engaging in such does not get one "heaven" as the result. Universalism does not survive that text.

Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die"

Yes, it will fulfill literally.

Matthew 25:41 and 46
41 Then shall JESUS say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE, prepared for the Devil and his messengers:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

GOD, the Word is GOD, is a devouring / consuming fire-Hebrews 12:29. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?- Isaiah 33:14

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

My response is that scripture shows that the extent for the term " apollumi" -- destroy, gets to the END of something as in "ashes". You seem to be asking if "reducing to ashes is the same as obliterate" --

Suffice it to point out that in the Bible "Destroy" does allow for ending, a complete end, as in "reduce to ashes". This is irrefutable.

Luke 17:29 apollumi
“ but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:6
6 “and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,

============================

And apparently we both agree that God "Destroys BOTH body AND soul" in fiery hell

I simply point out that John calls that "the lake of fire" in Rev 20.

==========================

so there are one or two details I have posted that are not addressed --

The ashes are physical earthly remains after burning, souls are not touched by earthly flames and do not burn in physical flames as far as I know. What do you think a soul is? Is a soul burnable? Would it leave ashes?

 

[bbbbbbb]

The ashes are physical earthly remains after burning, souls are not touched by earthly flames and do not burn in physical flames as far as I know. What do you think a soul is? Is a soul burnable? Would it leave ashes?

That is a very apt reply. It does leave one wondering in what sense can a soul experience pain. Obviously, without a physical component, there cannot be physical pain. Psychic pain is a different beast, however.

 

[Oseas]

Actually, the vast majority of mankind, who have never ever heard the name of Jesus Christ in their time on this earth are condemned simply because they never believed in Jesus, nor did they have the remotest possibility of believing in Jesus. They also never willfully chose to disbelieve in Jesus. Jesus simply did not exist in their experience.

Acts 16:5-7
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Spirit to preach the Word in Asia,

7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

So, ...

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.