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Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

timothyu

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Genesis 3 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Rev 22: And he showed me a river of the water of life, [a]clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of [b]the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve [c]kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


It seems that both times the tree of life is mentioned it is conditional in that to live is to continually feed and not just once. So what is the food represented by the tree of life required for continual life? Also it seems time is also in existence in the Kingdom so then it follows that must not be Heaven..
 
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Chaleb

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Right so the death that is being referred to is a physical death not a spiritual death because we are born spiritually dead. We are not spiritually alive until we come to Christ. So sin cannot bring about our spiritual death if we were never spiritually alive to begin with. “Death came to all men because all sinned”. So the death referred to in Romans 5 cannot be referring to a spiritual death because we were all spiritually dead to begin with. The death that’s being referred to in Romans 5 is a physical death because we were spiritually dead but physically alive. Would you say that an unbeliever who hadn’t sinned yet is spiritually alive? A newborn perhaps?

1.) The verse is showing us why we are needing to born again.

By being born again, we will later receive a new body to replace the one that is dying because of the "fall of us all" = Adam

We get our sin nature from our Male parent. Its in the blood, and in the nature. ('Life is in the blood") and that is Why God had to die as Christ on the Cross offering a "Blood Atonement" that is free from Sin which for us became...."""The one time eternal sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross".

2.) Now here is a mystery..
....its this....>"God made Jesus to become our sin/to become sin for us".. and that does not mean that Jesus was made a sinner, or ever sinned., as there was no Sin IN Him. He died SINLESS... with all our sin ON Him.
So, Christ Jesus being 2000 yrs ago made our sin, means He became it, died for it, and paid for it with all that SUFFERING. All 3. And by this Sacrifice, the WORLD now has this eternal offer of : Eternal Redemption from God.

Why is Christ's Blood so powerful, that even 2000 yrs later and forever, it keeps paying for sin?
Its because Jesus is GOD, and that means it was GOD's blood that was shed for the sin of the world., and that is why it can forgive it all, always.

2Corinthians 5:19

However, God does not apply this Eternal Blood Atonement to you unless you meet the requirement to receive God's Salvation.

= You have to "believe on Jesus whom God sent". "Faith is counted as Righteousness"........."Justification by Faith" without the law and without works. = to receive "The Gift of Righteousness"... And that is LITERALLY = "The Divine Exchange". whereby God as Christ on the Cross becomes your sin, all of it.... and this ends the Law's dominion over you.. "(Christ is the end of the Law for Righteousness)(""you are not under the Law, but under GRACE)"""
And what do you become?


A.) "made" righteous"... "The righteousness of God in Christ"......"a New Creation in Christ"... "Son/Daughter of God"..... = BORN AGAIN Spiritually.

ALSO.....

3.) "Christ has redeemed the born again from the CURSE OF THE LAW". so beware of deceivers who tell you...."ok, now that you are saved, you can go and keep that law", as that is why God saved you. He saved you with the new covenant so that you can go back under the old Moses LAW of the OT old covenant.""""

A.) No He didnt...>God didnt offer Himself on the Cross to save you from "the curse of the Law""" so that you can go and get back under the dominion of the law.... as "you are NOT under the Law, but UNDER GRACE" if you are born again and not just water baptized and religious.
Liars, deceivers, the devil's ministers teach you to go back UNDER the LAW and leave GRACE

= LEGALISM.
= Galatians 1:8

Learn to HEAR those people when they write or teach or preach, as they will put the LAW back on you and tell you that is CHRISTianity.
Or..
They will tell you that you are "supposed to be sinning and confessing, so expect it"...is "Christianity".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


4.) Why do newborns or little children who are of the Adamic nature... die and go to heaven.?
Why? Its because this has to do with understanding sin and being under the dominion of the Law., and babies dont understand anything, and a very young child has no idea of "sin".
Scholars have tried to pinpoint that exact moment where Paul said....>"sin revived and i died"......as perhaps being the "age of accountability", as the instant when each person understands intuitively "right from wrong", vs a parent telling them....>"no that is wrong".
Id say that by 12 yrs of age, all of us know "that is a sin"...
 
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sawdust

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The OT Prophets were not in the New Testament.
Jesus was not in the Old Testament in a Human body.

So, in the NT, Christ is risen and believers are born again.

This is not the case in the OT.
Christ is not. '" Christ in you the Hope of Glory"..... in any of the OT Saints. None of them are the "temple of the Holy Spirit".
None of them are "In Christ"., as you have to be born again for those to happen, and being born again started AFTER Jesus was slain, and rose again.

Look at this verse.

"As JESUS IS.......so are the born again, in this World"...

see that?
That does not apply to any Old Testament saint.

So, in the OT, .. God's anointing as "The Word of the Lord came to me"...... is specific to God's OT ministers.
However, Kings had an anointing also.... as David said that Saul was "God's anointed".
I understand that no OT believer was "in Christ". This is why I keep saying being born again is not about being in Christ.

You don't seem to give any thought to what I say. You keep insisting it's an NT thing only yet it was to a Jew under Law Jesus expected to know what He was talking about when there is no teaching in the OT about the Church, (ie. in Christ) it was a mystery.

You say "look at the verse". What verse? There's no verse that says: "As JESUS IS.......so are the born again, in this World"...

And you still fail to explain how an OT believer could understand spiritual matters. Not every believer had an anointing from God. You've only covered Prophets and Kings and even there you said earlier it was not the anointing that gave them understanding but failed to say what then?

I don't think you know what you're talking about. All you do is rinse and repeat but fail to explain a single query I raise as to the inconsistencies I see.

It's been interesting discussing with you but I don't see anything more to be said.

Have a nice day.
 
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sawdust

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Yes he did have eternal life before the fall.
Then why did he die when he sinned but we don't? Do you think the death God spoke of in the Garden was only physical or do you understand he died spiritually in that day to die physically over time?

A literal translation of Gen.2:17 is Adam would "die to die".
 
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Chaleb

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I understand that no OT believer was "in Christ". This is why I keep saying being born again is not about being in Christ.

You don't seem to give any thought to what I say. You keep insisting it's an NT thing only yet it was to a Jew under Law Jesus expected to know what He was talking about when there is no teaching in the OT about the Church, (ie. in Christ) it was a mystery.

You say "look at the verse". What verse? There's no verse that says: "As JESUS IS.......so are the born again, in this World"...

And you still fail to explain how an OT believer could understand spiritual matters. Not every believer had an anointing from God. You've only covered Prophets and Kings and even there you said earlier it was not the anointing that gave them understanding but failed to say what then?

I don't think you know what you're talking about. All you do is rinse and repeat but fail to explain a single query I raise as to the inconsistencies I see.

It's been interesting discussing with you but I don't see anything more to be said.

Have a nice day.

Im going to post your main point and then talk about it, as its incredible.

You wrote this, sawdust.

'""""".I keep saying being born again is not about being in Christ.""""""

Honestly, if you dont understand that being "in Christ" is to be born again..... and there is no other way to become born again then to be be born again Spiritually "in Christ" ......then how could you possibly understand what im been teaching.
You can't.
Being "in Christ"is the proof you are born again, as becoming the "temple of the Holy Spirit" is to be "in Christ"...is to be born again.

To be "SAVED" is to have become "in Christ"....born again.

Jesus said...'"you must be born again", and when you are you have become "one with God"... "In Christ".

All the born again are "in Christ". "seated in heavenly places"... = This is the born again spirit in a person.
The BELIEVER is spiritually birthed by the Spirit of God, (The Holy Spirit) Into the Spirit of God.and that is to become "In Christ".
Water does not cause that. Water can not perform a BIRTH< as water is just water, no matter if its in a Baptismal or in a Tub or Lake or ditch.
The Holy Spirit causes the new birth in a person, and the believer is thereby BORN AGAIN, spiritually, as a 'new creation" "in Christ".
 
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sawdust

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Im going to post your main point and then talk about it, as its incredible.

You wrote this, sawdust.

'""""".I keep saying being born again is not about being in Christ.""""""

Honestly, if you dont understand that being "in Christ" is to be born again..... and there is no other way to become born again then to be be born again Spiritually "in Christ" ......then how could you possibly understand what im been teaching.
You can't.
Being "in Christ"is the proof you are born again, as becoming the "temple of the Holy Spirit" is to be "in Christ"...is to be born again.

To be "SAVED" is to have become "in Christ"....born again.

Jesus said...'"you must be born again", and when you are you have become "one with God"... "In Christ".

All the born again are "in Christ". "seated in heavenly places"... = This is the born again spirit in a person.
The BELIEVER is spiritually birthed by the Spirit of God, (The Holy Spirit) Into the Spirit of God.and that is to become "In Christ".
Water does not cause that. Water can not perform a BIRTH< as water is just water, no matter if its in a Baptismal or in a Tub or Lake or ditch.
The Holy Spirit causes the new birth in a person, and the believer is thereby BORN AGAIN, spiritually, as a 'new creation" "in Christ".
It's not a matter of me not understanding what you are saying. I keep pointing out what you are teaching doesn't gel with the scripture. Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand the new birth. There is no teaching in the OT regarding being "in Christ" ergo, they cannot be the same thing.
 
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Chaleb

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It's not a matter of me not understanding what you are saying. I keep pointing out what you are teaching doesn't gel with the scripture. Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand the new birth. There is no teaching in the OT regarding being "in Christ" ergo, they cannot be the same thing.

Actually, Jesus expected YOU to understand the New Birth as being "In Christ".
You still don't but i bet you could teach a class on Water Baptism and Law keeping and penance,

So, sawdust,.....Open your bible if you have one, and just do a study on this, that ive been showing you for 2 or 3 days, now.

2 Corinthians 5:17

"""Therefore, if anyone is.. IN CHRIST,.. he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
This means "born again", sawdust.

Also....
Nicodemus was not going to understand it in John 3, as Jesus had not died on the Cross yet, so there was no "New Birth" until he did.
You also dont understand this, yet.

Next.
 
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sawdust

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Actually, Jesus expected YOU to understand the New Birth as being "In Christ".
You still don't but i bet you could teach a class on Water Baptism and Law keeping and penance,

So, sawdust,.....Open your bible if you have one, and just do a study on this, that ive been showing you for 2 or 3 days, now.

2 Corinthians 5:17

"""Therefore, if anyone is.. IN CHRIST,.. he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
This means "born again", sawdust.

Also....
Nicodemus was not going to understand it in John 3, as Jesus had not died on the Cross yet, so there was no "New Birth" until he did.
You also dont understand this, yet.

Next.
Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand that one had to made spiritually alive which, is what the new birth is. Unfortunately you seem to think that OT believers could serve God while they remained spiritually dead.

Seeing as you are simply going to resort to rudeness, I see no reason to continue the discussion.

Have a nice day. :)
 
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Chaleb

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Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand that one had to made spiritually alive

That verse has to be considered in light of this verse.

Jesus speaking to His Apostles......>"i have much to say to you, but you are not able to receive them now".

So, you can believe that Nicodemus who was not one the Apostles, was not able at that time, to understand what it meant to be born again. 'in Christ" as there was no born again In Christ, when Jesus was talking to Him.
Later, after Jesus rose from the Dead......with Salvation being finished, .. is a different story.

Also, many verses in the NT are written as this....

2 Timothy 3:16-17

They are written for the Body of Christ that will come later.
 
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sawdust

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That verse has to be considered in light of this verse.

Jesus speaking to His Apostles......>"i have much to say to you, but you are not able to receive them now".

So, you can believe that Nicodemus who was not one the Apostles, was not able at that time, to understand what it meant to be born again. 'in Christ" as there was no born again In Christ, when Jesus was talking to Him.
Later, after Jesus rose from the Dead......with Salvation being finished, .. is a different story.

Also, many verses in the NT are written as this....

2 Timothy 3:16-17

They are written for the Body of Christ that will come later.
Jesus expected him to understand. To infer otherwise is to say Jesus was mistaken about what was taught in the OT.
 
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Chaleb

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Jesus expected him to understand. To infer otherwise is to say Jesus was mistaken about what was taught in the OT.

Listen,

2 Billion religious people on this earth, who are alive 2000 years after the Cross, believe that water washes away there sin..

So, Nicodemus also didn't understand it, before the Cross was raised, sawdust.
 
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sawdust

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Listen,

2 Billion religious people on this earth, who are alive 2000 years after the Cross, believe that water washes away there sin..

So, Nicodemus also didn't understand it, before the Cross was raised, sawdust.
I never said he understood. I said Jesus expected him to understand. Are you saying Jesus was mistaken?
 
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Chaleb

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I never said he understood. I said Jesus expected him to understand. Are you saying Jesus was mistaken?

Jesus knew that he couldn't.
That verse is : for you.

Jesus also told many parables and often he had to explain them later.

Nicodemus said what He understood... "how can i go back inside my mother".

Jesus then told him about Spiritual Birth and Nicodemus was clueless, just as 2Billion are clueless today who will tell you that being water baptized is how you get saved.
 
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Chaleb

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Nicodemus didn't understand that he had to get past thinking with the flesh and expecting outcomes to affect the flesh. No better than the rest of the people expecting a worldly saviour and a worldly kingdom, including today.

Nicodemus had a carnal mind trying to understand the Spiritual words of Jesus.

Not a chance.
 
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sawdust

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Jesus knew that he couldn't.
That verse is : for you.

Jesus also told many parables and often he had to explain them later.

Nicodemus said what He understood... "how can i go back inside my mother".

Jesus then told him about Spiritual Birth and Nicodemus was clueless, just as 2Billion are clueless today who will tell you that being water baptized is how you get saved.
Where do you come up with this? It is quite obvious Jesus expected him to understand.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

To say Jesus knew he couldn't when the scripture states quite plainly the very opposite is just plain wrong. And please note: Jesus said a teacher of Israel not a teacher of the future Church.

And why do you even mention water baptism? The issue hasn't even been raised. :scratch:

You really need to stop making stuff up to fit your theory. Context is important.

As a teacher of the Law, Nicodemus should have understood the first requirement in salvation was to be made spiritually alive, born from above. No-one in Israel would have been able to comprehend the Law (which is spiritual) while remaining spiritually dead. The Spirit begets spirit just as flesh begets flesh. The analogy is dead simple a child could comprehend it.

The fact that you don't understand this is disturbing.

ps. I'm done discussing. :)
 
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Chaleb

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John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Currently, in Israel, there are thousands of "teachers of Israel", who dont understand the new Birth, or "in Christ".
Nicodemus was not the last.
He's just one of millions.
There are people on this forum who dont understand it, as you know, sawdust.
 
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sawdust

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Currently, in Israel, there are thousands of "teachers of Israel", who dont understand the new Birth, or "in Christ".
Nicodemus was not the last.
He's just one of millions.
There are people on this forum who dont understand it, as you know, sawdust.
Unfortunately what you have failed to understand is that all along the argument I presented why "born again" and "in Christ" are not the same thing has never been based on the ignorance of Nicodemus but on the expectation of Jesus.

This latest response is yet another failure of the same type which is why I no longer wish to continue the discussion. For whatever reason, you cannot/will not comprehend the argument I present and therefore constantly respond with this distraction of Nicodemus and his lack of understanding.

If you happen to wake up to the real argument I am presenting and are able to have a "counter", then I am more than happy to continue. :)
 
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BNR32FAN

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Then why did he die when he sinned but we don't? Do you think the death God spoke of in the Garden was only physical or do you understand he died spiritually in that day to die physically over time?

A literal translation of Gen.2:17 is Adam would "die to die".
Either way Adam wouldn’t have died spiritually or physically if he had never sinned so he did have eternal life before the fall.
 
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