I tested a rich Christian

[FameBright]

Your case is probably different because I think giving value to some material things may not always mean you are materialistic nor giving value to money does not always mean you love money. Although I'm not 100% sure about this.

The Christian guy in my example did say he doesn't value material things nor money. His case is different than yours. Claiming you're not materialist may be different from claiming you don't value material things and the latter seems a lot harder to accomplish and would require stronger proof you truly believe it.

I appreciate your comment and I hope you are correct. Jesus also tested a rich person. He told the rich person to give up everything he owned and sell it to the poor. I'm sure everyone knows the story. Is it really enough to just not value money or material things?

 

[timewerx]

It is when man states, repentance is a requirement (a condition) for a person to do, to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.​

You'll have to ignore a lot of Bible verses to arrive to such conclusion. Many of it taught by Jesus Himself.

Even Isaiah prophesied the coming doctrine of Jesus - redemption to those who repent of their sins.

 

[d taylor]

You'll have to ignore a lot of Bible verses to arrive to such conclusion. Many of it taught by Jesus Himself.

Even Isaiah prophesied the coming doctrine of Jesus - redemption to those who repent of their sins.

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Really, well here are just a few that specifically address receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life and not a single one mentions repentance as a condition.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

John 3:14,15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is
condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believe in Me has everlasting life.

John 11:25,26,27
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

John 20:31
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[timewerx]

John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believe in Me has everlasting life.​

John 14:12

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

[timewerx]

I appreciate your comment and I hope you are correct. Jesus also tested a rich person. He told the rich person to give up everything he owned and sell it to the poor. I'm sure everyone knows the story. Is it really enough to just not value money or material things?

Things can get so complicated when dealing with money in the Bible. So I'll give a broader answer to my understanding of Biblical teachings on this matter, to all topics, not just money:

John 12:47-48
47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Real life example:

If Jesus says we should be exceptionally generous to the poor, especially to strangers but we are unable to do it because it's very difficult, because of human nature, etc. It's probably OK. What's NOT OK is we tell everyone we should not give to strangers because that is false teaching. Jesus did not teach such thing and deceiving other people and quite frankly, it's the same thing as rejecting Christ because you do not accept His words by choosing to believe a false teaching instead.

 

[d taylor]

John 14:12

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Not sure of the connection you are trying to make with this verse.

The discussion was about a person receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life and the condition.
But you post a verse where Jesus is addressing believers (specifically the apostles) and that they can do even greater works than these.

This verse is not saying that works are required to become a believer. But that ones who do believe in Jesus will do greater works than Jesus did, concerning telling people how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. That believers in the up and coming church age will have the power of The Holy Spirit to be with them as they go out and tell people how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[timewerx]

Not sure of the connection you are trying to make with this verse.

The discussion was about a person receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life and the condition.
But you post a verse where Jesus is addressing believers (specifically the apostles) and that they can do even greater works than these.

This verse is not saying that works are required to become a believer. But that ones who do believe in Jesus will do greater works than Jesus did, concerning telling people how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. That believers in the up and coming church age will have the power of The Holy Spirit to be with them as they go out and tell people how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

You quoted lots of verses about belief and all of them from the Book of John. I simply gave you one more verse about belief, also in the Book of John!

I'm not sure about your understanding of "Free Gift of Eternal Life". Most Christians seem to believe it but when it comes to money and material things, their actions are in contradiction of what the Bible is saying about these things.

 

[d taylor]

You quoted lots of verses about belief and all of them from the Book of John. I simply gave you one more verse about belief, also in the Book of John!

I'm not sure about your understanding of "Free Gift of Eternal Life". Most Christians seem to believe it but when it comes to money and material things, their actions are in contradiction of what the Bible is saying about these things.

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​

But just because a verse is in the gospel of John, does not mean that verse or even the context is addressing receiving Eternal Life. All the verses i post are directly addressing Eternal Life and how to have it.

And not a single one of them state anything about riches and having or not having riches, as a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Just as this rich person you tested, he is either a believer or not. And that he is a believer or not is not dependent on the status of his bank account.

Now being rich may be a hindrance to a person in that their faith, may be resting in their wealth and their ability they had to acquire their wealth.
But in a way that is not different than a poor or middle class person and them placing their faith in their christian obedience (baptism, repentance, church attendance, etc..) for Eternal Life.

Both examples exhibit misplaced objects of faith and are not a born again child of God.

 

[timewerx]

But just because a verse is in the gospel of John, does not mean that verse or even the context is addressing receiving Eternal Life. All the verses i post are directly addressing Eternal Life and how to have it.​

Because John 14:12 is talking about things you'll see in a person who truly believes in Jesus?

And believing in Jesus has something to do with Eternal Life?

And not a single one of them state anything about riches and having or not having riches, as a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Just as this rich person you tested, he is either a believer or not. And that he is a believer or not is not dependent on the status of his bank account.

Now being rich may be a hindrance to a person in that their faith, may be resting in their wealth and their ability they had to acquire their wealth.
But in a way that is not different than a poor or middle class person and them placing their faith in their christian obedience (baptism, repentance, church attendance, etc..) for Eternal Life.

Both examples exhibit misplaced objects of faith and are not a born again child of God.

If God freely gave us the ability to generate wealth but doesn't freely help others with it, would it be fair to expect God to give us the 'Free Gift of Eternal Life'?

Forgive others in order to be forgiven. Can we expect God to grant us Free Mercy if we deny Free Mercy to others?

 

[Paul Shunamon]

Brothers and Sisters, we all have to pray fervently for Timewerx and any one who knows him/her (especially any one in their Church) should offer some help, even if it is a bit of time. Why has his/her church community not seen to this problem (at least to some degree). This is shameful! But I cannot comprehend that he/she is working for LESS THAN MINIMUM wage (at least $7.25 per hr). What greed stricken employer (if this is true) would allow this?

 

[Paul Shunamon]

I only make $5 per hour and drowning in my parent's debt. My income is not enough to pay for their debts. The failing car is a problem but I got way bigger problems.

So even if the guy actually said YES, I'd actually refuse the car donation. The car won't help much, we can get by with public transportation and bicycle. I simply wanted to know what's in his heart.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to test anyone here. I'm simply sharing a story. I'm not asking for help. If anyone offers any help, I'll refuse it.

To be honest, you sound like a conman. A job for $5 per hour? What is the company? It is violating US law.

 

[Swan7]

1. This is gossip and you need to talk to this other person, not blast possible slander all over social media.

2. This is not at all testing the Spirit. This was just a means for your own gain, so plainly put.

3. Neither of you know one another, there is nothing connecting you two to build a respectable relationship over such a topic.

If you are a Christian (and even if not), I encourage you to read the Bible with God and talk to Him often. Sometimes we do have to go back to the basics and get reacquainted with Jesus our Lord and Saviour. He wants our heart and so we should also reflect that back to Him as well as our brother and neighbor.

 

[timewerx]

To be honest, you sound like a conman. A job for $5 per hour? What is the company? It is violating US law.

I don't live in the USA. But I work for clients in the USA who outsource their clerical jobs to me. Actually, $5/hr rate would have been OK for me if only my clients have enough work for me to do.

 

[timewerx]

1. This is gossip and you need to talk to this other person, not blast possible slander all over social media.

2. This is not at all testing the Spirit. This was just a means for your own gain, so plainly put.

3. Neither of you know one another, there is nothing connecting you two to build a respectable relationship over such a topic.

If you are a Christian (and even if not), I encourage you to read the Bible with God and talk to Him often. Sometimes we do have to go back to the basics and get reacquainted with Jesus our Lord and Saviour. He wants our heart and so we should also reflect that back to Him as well as our brother and neighbor.

When a Pastor also tells of another Christian in front of a congregation who turned their life around and got better, that's not gossip. Yes? If a pastor does that in a forums, still not gossip? If a non-pastor member does the same act in a forums, not gossip?

I didn't even tell the person's name, not even his screen name. I also kept telling he got better. The test I did to him made him a better Christian, no longer boastful of his 'religious discipline' and we got closer.

This thread wasn't for my own gain either. Another member actually offered to give me a car for free to replace my badly beat up car but I refused. I am very thankful for his kindness, mercy, and generosity but I refused. I really am in need of financial rescue quite badly BUT I won't ask for anyone's help and if anyone would try to help, I'll just refuse help. I have accepted help in the past from Christian relatives and friends. It wasn't much. Not exactly what could solve the problem long term or even permanently via good job opportunities. Wasn't their fault. They're the help God sent me so it must be the best option for me. And I don't feel right anymore getting help it just makes feel even more awful than the problem itself.

 

[Paul Shunamon]

I don't live in the USA. But I work for clients in the USA who outsource their clerical jobs to me. Actually, $5/hr rate would have been OK for me if only my clients have enough work for me to do.

Yes I knew it could not be here in this country. So what is the real point, he calls himself a Christian (a follower of Jesus) but in actions he is not like you would perceive? Jesus even warns us there will be plenty of those (see Matthew 25:1-13)

 

[d taylor]

Because John 14:12 is talking about things you'll see in a person who truly believes in Jesus?

And believing in Jesus has something to do with Eternal Life?



If God freely gave us the ability to generate wealth but doesn't freely help others with it, would it be fair to expect God to give us the 'Free Gift of Eternal Life'?

Forgive others in order to be forgiven. Can we expect God to grant us Free Mercy if we deny Free Mercy to others?

Again The verse in John 14 is does not mention truly at all. When The Bible speaks of a believer, The Bible just uses believer, there is no need to use an extra qualifier word with believe. Either a person has believed in The Messiah or they have not. Of course there are false prophets, etc.. in The Bible. But these people are never stated as being a believer.

The audience Jesus is addressing is His apostles. The apostles were given the ability to preform miracles, believers now can not preform miracles. They simply can teach how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Doing Greater Works Than Jesus Did (John 14:12) – Grace Evangelical Society

You wrote
If God freely gave us the ability to generate wealth but doesn't freely help others with it, would it be fair to expect God to give us the 'Free Gift of Eternal Life'?

This above statement from you, is just simply you own human philosophy. That is not supported by one single verse in The Bible.

From reading you thinking on Eternal Life and how a person receives God's free gift. I have come to the belief that you believe receiving Eternal Life is a life long pursuit a person must do, by compiling a life of good works and to hope that they will have enough works to earn eternal life.

Which is opposite of how The Bible teaches Eternal Life is received from God. The Bible teaches a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life at the moment of belief in Jesus The Messiah. Which this happens in a moment of time, only as long as it takes a person to understand that eternal life is received by faith in Jesus.

John 5:24 states believe and then a person crosses over from death to life at that very moment. It does not say believer and life a life of good works and eventually the believer will cross over from death to life.

 

[timewerx]

believers now can not preform miracles.

Many Christians will disagree with you there.

You wrote
If God freely gave us the ability to generate wealth but doesn't freely help others with it, would it be fair to expect God to give us the 'Free Gift of Eternal Life'?

This above statement from you, is just simply you own human philosophy. That is not supported by one single verse in The Bible.

It is supported by several verses in "The Parable of the Faithful Servant" in the Bible.

 

[timewerx]

Yes I knew it could not be here in this country. So what is the real point, he calls himself a Christian (a follower of Jesus) but in actions he is not like you would perceive? Jesus even warns us there will be plenty of those (see Matthew 25:1-13)

I didn't mind him at first telling everyone he is a Christian. I simply hoped the best for him that he would remain true and he would not say anything that would make us Christians look stupid to unbelievers.

Then he started saying he doesn't value money and material things. The non-Christian members thinks its some kind of Eastern mantra. The Bible did teach that material things and money have no value so it's indeed a correct attitude for a Christian to not value material things and money.

However, there's is only way to test that you don't value material things and money and he couldn't do it. I'm not sharing this example to lift myself up over others because I fail this test on many occasions and I feel terrible each time.

 

[d taylor]

Many Christians will disagree with you there.



It is supported by several verses in "The Parable of the Faithful Servant" in the Bible.

I am realy fine with that, show me a believer raising people from death back to life. Or doing any of the miricles recorded in The Bible that the apostles did at the onset of The Church.


You will have to explain your theology on this parable ("The Parable of the Faithful Servant") Matthew 24:45-5.

Because this parable is addressing the second coming of Jesus and prepared and unprepared believers. I see noting in this parable about unbelievers and what is required of an unbeliever to do to receive Eternal Life.

A Sad Day of Reckoning (Matthew 24:45-51) – Grace Evangelical Society

In the Parable of the Just and the Unjust Servant in Matt 24:45-51, we see a servant who was doing very well. He was ruling over other servants of the Lord. He was doing a good job. But then we’re told in the text that he says in his heart, “My Lord delays His coming.” This was when he starts beating his fellow servants. He starts drinking with the drunkards. He loses his focus. When Jesus returns, this person gets a verbal tongue lashing. He’s rebuked by Christ, and instead of being made a ruler in the life to come, he’s relegated to a position of non-rulership. The lesson to be learned in that parable was that we need to remain watchful in this age for the imminent return of Christ. He could return today, tomorrow, at any moment.

 

[timewerx]

I am realy fine with that, show me a believer raising people from death back to life. Or doing any of the miricles recorded in The Bible that the apostles did at the onset of The Church.

Not every Christian is given all the gifts. The gift of deliverance from evil spirits is very real though.

"...He will do even greater things..." via other supernatural gifts and also with modern technology.

You will have to explain your theology on this parable ("The Parable of the Faithful Servant") Matthew 24:45-5.

Because this parable is addressing the second coming of Jesus and prepared and unprepared believers. I see noting in this parable about unbelievers and what is required of an unbeliever to do to receive Eternal Life.

You said it yourself "prepared" -- believer. "Prepared" means they did something the unprepared one didn't do.

In the Parable of the Just and the Unjust Servant in Matt 24:45-51, we see a servant who was doing very well. He was ruling over other servants of the Lord. He was doing a good job. But then we’re told in the text that he says in his heart, “My Lord delays His coming.” This was when he starts beating his fellow servants. He starts drinking with the drunkards. He loses his focus. When Jesus returns, this person gets a verbal tongue lashing. He’s rebuked by Christ, and instead of being made a ruler in the life to come, he’s relegated to a position of non-rulership. The lesson to be learned in that parable was that we need to remain watchful in this age for the imminent return of Christ. He could return today, tomorrow, at any moment.

I think something is blinding you to the truth. Those verses say the bad servant got condemned to death, not just a position of non-rulership. He will die with the hypocrites.

Are you a Universalist Christian by any chance? Everyone gets save, nobody is condemned?