I tested a rich Christian

[timewerx]

Again, the above seems to be more a commentary in how others do not measure up to where you perceive yourself spiritually and morally, not what others are doing or demonstrating their faith or attachment to material goods.

I mean, if somebody read your circumstances and said “wait, he has more than I do! I’m going to ask him for something and if he says ‘no’ it means he values items more than faith,” would you feel thats fair and accurate? If somebody said you have public transportation and don’t need a bike whereas where they live there is no public transportation so they need the bike more, would they be correct in assuming you are less-than in your faith for your lack of charity and equity by not handing over the bike?

I never claimed to be more righteous than the guy in the OP and I've done very selfish acts in my life. I have nothing to be proud of.

The important thing is the guy in my OP did changed his ways and we even got closer in the forums. It looks like he appreciated what I did for him.

Ofc, I don't expect every Christian to have positive response. I mean look at Jesus, pointing out the mistakes of the Pharisees, while He won over some of the Pharisees, most them got offended and so plotted to kill Him.

 

[ozso]

In another forum. A non-religious hobby forum, we have a highly successful member who openly admits being Christian and I guess proud to be one.

He often tells about his career. A very good one. As an engineer (or a scientist, can't remember the exact detail on that one) working for one of the top aerospace companies in USA, having high level security clearance and also worked on smaller but high profile projects. No doubt he is highly intelligent and smart, a man with 'golden hands' everything he worked on succeeded. And his career made him quite well off financially and retired successfully, no debt with large savings and large income from investments and pension. He travels all over the world with his wife many times a year.

He often talks about his successful career and attributes everything to God all of his blessings and success. Everyone in the forum knows him. He knows me just enough to trust me. Then lately, I often see him write in his posts he no longer values money and material things.

So I tested him on the things he wrote. One thing about this rich Christian pensioner, he had lots of cars for his own use only. He doesn't collect cars but he has different vehicles for different occasions. Some of them expensive, some are just regular sedans like most people drive to work.

Everyone in the forum knows me for having plenty of car problems with my old beat up car. So I asked this rich member if he can give me one of his car that's working perfectly fine to replace my old beat up car. He says he can't. I gave him a 2nd option, if he can't give up any of his cars due to sentimental value, he can send me money instead so I can find a good used car to replace my old beat up car. Again, he said no and he told me not because he doesn't trust me nor doesn't like me, he just wouldn't do it.

So I reasoned with him. He had plenty of 'disposable money', cars he can give away without problem. If he doesn't value money nor material things anymore, he shouldn't have any problems giving them to those who may need it so badly.

He gave a final reply he just can't with a smiley. He did not give any reason nor tried to debate the topic. From that point on, I never saw him write about his his beliefs about money and material things anymore. He also stopped telling about his Christianity. I wonder sometimes if I overdid it or did just right. After all, it would seem his intentions are in the wrong place and I made him out to be a hypocrite when it comes to worldly things.

I've observed this behavior often enough among other Christians with privileged life. They say they don't value money but ask them for a bit of help with money, they won't.

Should he give a car and or money to everyone online who asks, or just you?

 

[timewerx]

Should he give a car and or money to everyone online who asks, or just you?

I did not try to 'preach' him any Christian things. I didn't want anyone in that forum to know that I'm a Christian.

And because he tells everyone he doesn't value money and material things anymore, I told him to give me one of his cars to replace my failing car.

He stopped posting how he doesn't value money and material things after that. Can you honestly say you don't value money and material things anymore? I know I can't because I still see value in money and material things. Although I value spiritual things infinitely more, it's still wrong to put value in material things and I'm not proud of it.

 

[ozso]

I did not try to 'preach' him any Christian things. I didn't want anyone in that forum to know that I'm a Christian.

And because he tells everyone he doesn't value money and material things anymore, I told him to give me one of his cars to replace my failing car.

He stopped posting how he doesn't value money and material things after that. Can you honestly say you don't value money and material things anymore? I know I can't because I still see value in money and material things. Although I value spiritual things infinitely more, it's still wrong to put value in material things and I'm not proud of it.

I don't nearly as much as I used to, which is probably a result of age (I'm 60). As far as online people go, there are a lot of artificial personas out there. A long time ago on a forum I pretended to be wealthy and have an extravagant lifestyle. Although I did so in a way that made it pretty clear it was just an act. Although some people didn't get it and actually thought I was bragging for real. You really have no idea who this person is.

 

[timewerx]

I don't nearly as much as I used to, which is probably a result of age (I'm 60). As far as online people go, there are a lot of artificial personas out there. A long time ago on a forum I pretended to be wealthy and have an extravagant lifestyle. Although I did so in a way that made it pretty clear it was just an act. Although some people didn't get it and actually thought I was bragging for real. You really have no idea who this person is.

It's actually easy to track a person down if posts his face or other pictures on the internet. You can get his/her name and even facebook account / address. Any computer-savvy 8 year old can do it.

So it's not a good idea to pretend you are wealthy. You risk getting unwanted attention from bad people who may want to steal from you and have all the time and resources to track you down.

 

[jacks]

Many people like to pretend they are wealthier than they actually are. We see it not only on-line but in life where people live above their means. It is not something to ridicule as much as feel sympathy for them.

 

[ozso]

It's actually easy to track a person down if posts his face or other pictures on the internet. You can get his/her name and even facebook account / address. Any computer-savvy 8 year old can do it.

So it's not a good idea to pretend you are wealthy. You risk getting unwanted attention from bad people who may want to steal from you and have all the time and resources to track you down.

I didn't say it was a good idea you know. I just said it happens.

 

[timewerx]

Many people like to pretend they are wealthier than they actually are. We see it not only on-line but in life where people live above their means. It is not something to ridicule as much as feel sympathy for them.

That is a surprise to me because I thought people only did it in facebook, you know, show off to all their friends in facebook.

I don't do it myself, it's a worldly, non-Christian behavior even though many Christians do it. Pretending to be well off and problem-free all the time in facebook.

But in forums, we don't know each other. It's not as shameful to be truthful in our situation no matter how bad, like we're drowning in debt and my salary could not sustain payment of my debts. Although I don't say these things in facebook, I haven't been active on facebook for 10 years now. But I do tell our situation to relatives and friends. They know our huge problems. Honesty is a good thing although I noticed, they've become distant since they knew of our problems, they stopped talking to us, inviting us to coffee.

I can see now why it would be a 'good' thing to pretend to be well-off so your friends and relatives will keep having close relationships with you, otherwise, if they knew you're struggling or have become poor, they'll cut off relationships.

 

[d taylor]

-​

People can say they are christians, but many miss or do not understand how to become a born again child of God. So this person may or may not be a born again child of God.

That can not be judged by how he lives his life. But if he is a believer, he can actually do what he likes with his money and worldly possessions.

 

[timewerx]

But if he is a believer, he can actually do what he likes with his money and worldly possessions.​

True, but a born-again believer would not do with his money and worldly possessions as unbelievers do because his new nature in Christ is no longer the same.

People can say they are christians, but many miss or do not understand how to become a born again child of God. So this person may or may not be a born again child of God.

This topic angers many Christians but not as bad as about money and material possessions.

Let's just say the odds are totally stacked against everyone, including the elect. You are far more likely to be deceived than not and the Bible said way more than once. You are far more likely to believe a corrupted version of the Gospel than otherwise. It's usually Churches that preaches a form of Christianity that makes it work with worldliness that gets people.

 

[d taylor]

True, but a born-again believer would not do with his money and worldly possessions as unbelievers do because his new nature in Christ is no longer the same.


This topic angers many Christians but not as bad as about money and material possessions.

Let's just say the odds are totally stacked against everyone, including the elect. You are far more likely to be deceived than not and the Bible said way more than once. You are far more likely to believe a corrupted version of the Gospel than otherwise. It's usually Churches that preaches a form of Christianity that makes it work with worldliness that gets people.

The simple fact is, there is no life change requirement for a person to become a born again child of God. That they must change how they live to receive Eternal Life is not a condition. The believer receives the spirit of The Christ, but they still have in them a sin nature. So unless one becomes a mature believer, the sin nature will always be bringing them back into the worldly lust of the world.

As for incorrect gospels, those are the ones that teach a faith in a person's obedience. The gospel that points to only faith in Jesus The Messiah, as the only way to receive God's free gift of Eternla Life salvation is the true eternal life giving gospel.

 

[FameBright]

Right, so remove your own planks before judging other people on theirs. It isn't saying to remove other people's specs for them or point them out to them. The point I am making with the scripture works with the full verse quote

I can see Timewerx's dillemma. I can't say whether or not his intent was to judge, but Timewerx does bring up an interesting idea for discussion. I have material things but yet I don't don't think of myself as materialistic. Sometimes I feel as If I may be delusional and get confused of whether I'm materialistic or not. Yet it would be not be easy for me to just give up some things but I'm not sure why. I'd have to dig really deep to find out if it's truly materialism or something else.

 

[timewerx]

I can see Timewerx's dillemma. I can't say whether or not his intent was to judge, but Timewerx does bring up an interesting idea for discussion. I have material things but yet I don't don't think of myself as materialistic. Sometimes I feel as If I may be delusional and get confused of whether I'm materialistic or not. Yet it would be not be easy for me to just give up some things but I'm not sure why. I'd have to dig really deep to find out if it's truly materialism or something else.

Your case is probably different because I think giving value to some material things may not always mean you are materialistic nor giving value to money does not always mean you love money. Although I'm not 100% sure about this.

The Christian guy in my example did say he doesn't value material things nor money. His case is different than yours. Claiming you're not materialist may be different from claiming you don't value material things and the latter seems a lot harder to accomplish and would require stronger proof you truly believe it.

 

[timewerx]

The simple fact is, there is no life change requirement for a person to become a born again child of God. That they must change how they live to receive Eternal Life is not a condition. The believer receives the spirit of The Christ, but they still have in them a sin nature. So unless one becomes a mature believer, the sin nature will always be bringing them back into the worldly lust of the world.

As for incorrect gospels, those are the ones that teach a faith in a person's obedience. The gospel that points to only faith in Jesus The Messiah, as the only way to receive God's free gift of Eternla Life salvation is the true eternal life giving gospel.

While it's true there is no requirement, there will be signs that someone believes:

1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

New Testament "Repentance" mean change of mind.
Old Testament prophesy of Christ in Isaiah, "Repentance" means turning back from sins.

Usually, if you have a change of mind because the truth is revealed to you and you believe it, a change in one's actions, and they way they live follows soon.

That's what true Repentance is and repentance is required for forgiveness.

Sorry, I had to articulate the concept of 'change' or 'repentance' very carefully because the way you said is at risk of misinterpretation. It might give someone the idea they can be a saved Christian and a 'hedonist' at the same time or be a saved Christians but conduct themselves in every conceivable manner like an unbeliever.

Our actions may be excusable because of sinful nature BUT if we believe and accept the same things that shows hatred of God, then we are deceived. Many Christians are actually unaware of these things and are deceived.

 

[linux.poet]

I believe the parable about the widow's mite was placed in the Bible as a polemic against the Pharisee's financial abuse.

38 Then He said to them in His teaching, “Beware of the scribes, who desire to go around in long robes, love greetings in the marketplaces, 39 the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts, 40 who devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation.”

The story of the widow's mite follows this statement in Mark, in verse 41.

The Bible is clear - the rich are not to demand generosity from the poor. So "wealthy beggars" who are Christians should be subject to church discipline.

However, poor people probably shouldn't be demanding money from rich people either, especially since the appearance of wealth may be a facade. In America, one can borrow for fancy houses and expensive cars without truly having the money for those things - they look rich, but they are not, and they spend all of their lives paying off those loans. They gamble using the financial markets and bet that their investments pay off more than their debts take out. So, @timewerx, your friend may not actually have the money for all of those cars. He may have bought them entirely on credit to show off to the forum, and then just sold them off after he took the pictures.

I have a thing about giving people money who I do not know and who seem to think that somehow I owe it to them.
Even people I do know I would rarely give them money for several reasons. I gave someone a hundred bucks a short while ago because they said they could not afford to buy their daughter a prom dress. Two weeks later they went on vacation to FL and a cruise. So as far as I am concerned what I really did was finance their vacation and cruise. I see this happen all the time. People poor-mouth and when you give them something they take it and blow it on some extravagant thing. Another issue is drugs and alcohol. This too I have seen. You hand someone some money to try and help them and they go directly and by drugs or booze. I have grandchildren I would never give money to because I know exactly what they would do.
Many people cannot handle a large influx of money. They will literally destroy themselves with it. I have seen it happen They have a good sized bank account, and a few months later they are in debt worse than what they were before they started.
I would never give money to someone who walked up and demanded some because they knew I was a Christian and therefore I somehow owed it to them. I would not be rude, but I think I would suggest they either get a job, a better job, get a degree and be qualified for a better job, or if they are unable to work, get on assistance or get help from their family.

I believe the best policy is to either give money to people that you know, or give money to the local church. The solution I've heard about is to give things - food, clothing, laundry detergent, etc - to the homeless or to those in bad living situations. They are less likely to abuse that. The early church served food to those in need, so it may be best to follow that model.

Another way to help is to give access to equipment, if the person can be trusted. Having access to a kitchen, laundry machines, and a shower can save a homeless person (or a person in a bad living situation where they don't have access to those things) hundreds of dollars a week.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The solution I've heard about is to give things - food, clothing, laundry detergent, etc - to the homeless or to those in bad living situations. They are less likely to abuse that. The early church served food to those in need, so it may be best to follow that model....
.

You and my wife are signing a chorus here.

 

[timewerx]

However, poor people probably shouldn't be demanding money from rich people either, especially since the appearance of wealth may be a facade. In America, one can borrow for fancy houses and expensive cars without truly having the money for those things - they look rich, but they are not, and they spend all of their lives paying off those loans. They gamble using the financial markets and bet that their investments pay off more than their debts take out. So, @timewerx, your friend may not actually have the money for all of those cars. He may have bought them entirely on credit to show off to the forum, and then just sold them off after he took the pictures.

The guy in my OP did told everyone in the forum, he is retired, no debt, no more kids at home, have lots of savings and plenty of disposable income from pension + investments. And travel frequently around the world with his wife each year.

And he said often enough he doesn't value material things nor money. If you keep saying those things one of your listeners is bound to test you at some point and if you can't hold on to it, you're simply bragging, being arrogant. I think he realized this mistake because he no longer said such things. He even got way nicer to me after that. He very rarely participated in my threads nor replied to my posts before although he knows me well, I'm fairly popular in that forum and he posts daily in the forum and many times in the same topics I frequent.

Also it's not good for a Christian to have loans, mortgages, etc. They're plain simple debt..... The Bible tells us not to owe any man anything, live within our means and not heap upon ourselves financial burdens that are avoidable.

Putting yourself in debt to get something bigger and nicer isn't practiced by everyone in the world. Icelanders for example, save money until they have enough money to buy a house in cash, this is their culture. If they want something sooner, they can settle for cheap.

A culture of credit, loans, mortgages, part of American culture goes against Biblical teachings. Just because it's popular, part of the culture makes it right. It just makes life a lot more stressful. It reflects a strongly materialistic society. It's probably one strong reason why USA have far higher crime rates than Iceland. Because everyone is struggling to "keep up with Joneses" and burying themselves in debt and idolizing careers is part of the culture.

 

[d taylor]

While it's true there is no requirement, there will be signs that someone believes:

1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

New Testament "Repentance" mean change of mind.
Old Testament prophesy of Christ in Isaiah, "Repentance" means turning back from sins.

Usually, if you have a change of mind because the truth is revealed to you and you believe it, a change in one's actions, and they way they live follows soon.

That's what true Repentance is and repentance is required for forgiveness.

Sorry, I had to articulate the concept of 'change' or 'repentance' very carefully because the way you said is at risk of misinterpretation. It might give someone the idea they can be a saved Christian and a 'hedonist' at the same time or be a saved Christians but conduct themselves in every conceivable manner like an unbeliever.

Our actions may be excusable because of sinful nature BUT if we believe and accept the same things that shows hatred of God, then we are deceived. Many Christians are actually unaware of these things and are deceived.

Repentance has nothing to do with or required of, a person placing their faith in Jesus to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Neither is there a requirement for a believer to show outward signs that they are a believer.
Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

This "a person must change their life" to be able to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life. Is a flat out twisting of God's requirement to receive His free gift of Eternal Life. And is partners with a false worked based salvation belief.

Nowhere in the entire Bible is one’s eternal destiny contingent upon his repenting of his sins, that is a man-made doctrine. That teaching actually contradicts the faith-alone message of the Lord Jesus and His apostles. Stated another way, that teaching actually hinders people from being born again. As long as anyone believes that his works, whether good or bad, are essential to his eternal destiny, he is not believing the faith-alone message of John 3:16.

https://faithalone.org/?s=repentance

https://faithalone.org/blog/do-we-need-to-preach-repentance-when-we-share-christ-with-someone/

https://faithalone.org/blog/how-is-forgiveness-linked-to-confession-and-repentance-part-1/

 

[FameBright]

Nowhere in the entire Bible is one’s eternal destiny contingent upon his repenting of his sins, that is a man-made doctrine. That teaching actually contradicts the faith-alone message of the Lord Jesus and His apostles. Stated another way, that teaching actually hinders people from being born again.

You really confused me on this one. Are you saying repenting of our sins is a man-made doctrine?

 

[d taylor]

You really confused me on this one. Are you saying repenting of our sins is a man-made doctrine?

​

It is when man states, repentance is a requirement (a condition) for a person to do, to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.