Propitiation

[Hammster]

When someone says its receipt is conditional - it is only applies to those who meet conditions.

That doesn’t really address the question, though. “Receipt” isn’t in view. What is in view is what propitiation means. So I ask again. When you say “cancelled for all”, does that mean God’s wrath is no longer on any person ever?

 

[John Mullally]

That doesn’t really address the question, though. “Receipt” isn’t in view. What is in view is what propitiation means. So I ask again. When you say “cancelled for all”, does that mean God’s wrath is no longer on any person ever?

Are you a proponent of one-verse Theology? If not, you are not the gate-keeper that keeps out argumentation from other scripture no matter how you construct the OP.

Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.​

 

[Hammster]

Are you a proponent of one-verse Theology? If not, you are not the gate-keeper that keeps out argumentation from other scripture no matter how you construct the OP.

Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.​

I’m looking for some sort of actual answer. That’s all. Is it safe to say that one is not forthcoming?

 

[John Mullally]

I’m looking for some sort of actual answer. That’s all. Is it safe to say that one is not forthcoming?

We have interchanged frequently. We all stand before God and pretending to misunderstand is a lie., I gave you a lengthy answer in Post 60 and I referenced it again to you in another post. You never argued in detail against my points in Post 60. Did you study my Post 60?

Have a good day and remember that God desires all people to be saved, just like you (if you have a heart) desire your friends and relatives to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

 

[Hammster]

We have interchanged frequently. We all stand before God and pretending to misunderstand is a lie., I gave you a lengthy answer in Post 60 and I referenced it again to you in another post. You never argued in detail against my points in Post 60. Did you study my Post 60?

Have a good day and remember that God desires all people to be saved, just like you (if you have a heart) desire your friends and relatives to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

My post had to do with a comment you made. Since you don’t want to explain further, I suppose we are finished here.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I agree that only some are saved, as seen by reading the Bible. The discretion is up to men, as God did not make any into sock-puppeted yes-men and does not have favorites (Romans 2:11).

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up. 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.​

And who is it that believes? The sheep.

 

[John Mullally]

My post had to do with a comment you made. Since you don’t want to explain further, I suppose we Scripture, Tradition, Reason finished here.

Do not say I will not explain. I have responded in far more detail in Post 60 then you are custom to supplying, but you are unwilling to put in the effort to understand and respond. I have always strived to understand the other.

The text above that I underlined is unintelligible.

That doesn’t really address the question, though. “Receipt” isn’t in view. What is in view is what propitiation means. So I ask again. When you say “cancelled for all”, does that mean God’s wrath is no longer on any person ever?

You have a tendency of constructing OP's with constraints to get answers that yield desired results - look up "loaded question" in Wikipedia.

I gave you a very thoughtful response in Post 60 that you discarded because of a technical reason not stated in your OP (i.e. receipt is not in view).

It is time to think outside of your box. Receipt on man's part via faith, which you refuse to consider, is crucial in Continuationism Theology (Pentecostals/ Charismatics/ WOF/NAR, etc.). I acknowledge those associated denominations are less than 200 years old, but don't look now, but there are at least 500 million adherents (much in Latin America, China, and Africa). Jesus provided everything 2000 years ago in his crucifixion and resurrection (1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6) and receiving that benefit requires faith as John 3:14-15 and numerous other scriptures attest. Again, review Post 60 for more information. In your pilgrimage remember that God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4) and God is the Savior of all men (1 Timothy 4:10).

 

[John Mullally]

And who is it that believes? The sheep.

Sheep is a metaphor for follower. Although believers are followers, they are not born followers and never get four legs and you cannot pull wool over their eyes. Sheep is not a term used frequently in Acts and the Epistles as parables and metaphors were not needed. Although men do not seek God, He seeks us, and we can choose to believe as faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17) and we can choose what we listen to.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. ​

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Sheep is a metaphor for follower.

You will have to flesh that one out more thoroughly because, as I read it, Jesus describes people as sheep before they believe and follow. They were already sheep belonging to the Father when he gave them to Jesus, the good shepherd who knows the sheep and calls them, and they know his voice and follow.

Many people seem to think that by believing and following Jesus they become one of his sheep, that people exist as some tertium quid and become either a sheep or goat by an act of will. But that picture is not consistent with how Scripture paints these metaphors. It is those who are his sheep that know his voice and follow him (John 10:26-29). If you are not his sheep, you do not believe or follow—notice that John 10:26 does NOT say, "You are not my sheep because you do not believe." It says the opposite. Who is it that believes and follows? The sheep (vv. 27-29). It is the sheep that belong to the Father, it is the sheep that are given to the Son, it is the sheep for which he laid down his life, it is the sheep he knows and calls, it is the sheep that know his voice and follow. The Lord knows those who are his, and the Father granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to... who? "All those you have given him" (John 17:2; cf. 6:37-40; 10:28-29).

The goats? "I never knew you," he will say. Never.

Although believers are followers, they are not born followers ...

They're also not born believers. But they ARE born sheep, I would suggest—and as his sheep they will believe and follow him when they hear the voice of their shepherd.

Sheep is not a term used frequently in Acts and the epistles, as parables and metaphors were not needed.

Okay.

Although men do not seek God, he seeks us, and we can choose to believe as faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17) and we can choose what we listen to.

The sheep can believe when they hear, yes. I have provided the scriptures for that.

If you contend that the goats can believe when they hear, please provide the scriptures for that. Or if you contend that there is a tertium quid between sheep and goats conveyed in those metaphorical pictures, please provide the scriptures for that.

John 5:24, “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Again, who is it that hears and believes? Those who belong to God, that is, the sheep. "Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God" (John 8:47).

 

[John Mullally]

You will have to flesh that one out more thoroughly because, as I read it, Jesus describes people as sheep before they believe and follow. They were already sheep belonging to the Father when he gave them to Jesus, the good shepherd who knows the sheep and calls them, and they know his voice and follow.I pre Didactic Skeptic,

No one is a follower (or Sheep) until conversion (John 5:24) when they transition from death to life. For doctrine, I prefer straight talk from Acts and the Epistles. Before the crucifixion Jesus was not as explicit as possible as Satan still had to unwittingly have Him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:8) That is why you see a great increase in revelation after the resurrection. The disciples were not filled with the Holy Spirit and did not know about the Church age and the Great Commission until shortly after the resurrection.

Christ used metaphors to introduce the New Covenant before it took place (i.e. which occurred at the resurrection). Jesus's speeches on His Sheep are mainly in front of His adversaries and it shows them the deep love between Him and His followers, in contrast to their "religious" experience.

Many people seem to think that by believing and following Jesus they become one of his sheep, that people exist as some tertium quid and become either a sheep or goat by an act of will. But that picture is not consistent with how Scripture paints these metaphors. It is those who are his sheep that know his voice and follow him (John 10:26-29). If you are not his sheep, you do not believe or follow—notice that John 10:26 does NOT say, "You are not my sheep because you do not believe." It says the opposite. Who is it that believes and follows? The sheep (vv. 27-29). It is the sheep that belong to the Father, it is the sheep that are given to the Son, it is the sheep for which he laid down his life, it is the sheep he knows and calls, it is the sheep that know his voice and follow. The Lord knows those who are his, and the Father granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to... who? "All those you have given him" (John 17:2; cf. 6:37-40; 10:28-29).

The only time that Jesus speaks of goats is at the final judgment - that is significant.

God desires all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9) and is the Savior of all men (1 Timothy 4:10). Christ paid the ransom for all (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6). God does not show favoritism (Acts 10:34-35). Thus God is not in the business of selecting who will and who will not be His Sheep and who will and will not be saved. Peter promises salvation (forgiveness and receipt of the gift of the Holy Spirit) to those who respond to the Gospel in repentance and baptism. That promise persists. God calls all to repentance (Acts 17:30).

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.​

They're also not born believers. But they ARE born sheep, I would suggest—and as his sheep they will believe and follow him when they hear the voice of their shepherd.

Christ does not say people are born Sheep. That just fits nicely in Calvinist theology.

Paul heard the Gospel from St. Stephan while Stephan was being stoned by his cohorts and yet Paul was converted later on the road to Damascus. Effectively you are saying that Paul who was a sheep was ignored by the Shephard for roughly 30 years even while Paul was having Christians killed - OK. Whatever explanation makes your theology work - right?

Again, who is it that hears and believes? Those who belong to God, that is, the sheep. "Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God" (John 8:47).

In John 10 26 Jesus tells the religious leaders they are not His Sheep. In John 10:31, the same religious leaders pick up stones to stone Jesus. But yet in John 10:38 Jesus is trying to get those same leaders to believe on Him based upon His miraculous works. Thus, Jesus did not give up on those who hated Him and to whom He said they were not His Sheep. Jesus does not waste His time. Thus, this shows that people can become His Sheep anywhere in their lifespan.

 

[Hammster]

Do not say I will not explain. I have responded in far more detail in Post 60 then you are custom to supplying, but you are unwilling to put in the effort to understand and respond. I have always strived to understand the other.

You mistake your responding to my questions with actually answering the question. Sometimes you do answer. In this case, you have not.

The text above that I underlined is unintelligible.

Yep. Autofill. I’ll edit it.

You have a tendency of constructing OP's with constraints to get answers that yield desired results - look up "loaded question" in Wikipedia.

I didn’t do that here. I didn’t even ask a question.

I gave you a very thoughtful response in Post 60 that you discarded because of a technical reason not stated in your OP (i.e. receipt is not in view).

I didn’t discard it. I asked a follow up question. You’ve avoided answering. In the time you’ve taken to avoid answering, you could have give a very thorough response.

It is time to think outside of your box. Receipt on man's part via faith, which you refuse to consider, is crucial in Continuationism Theology (Pentecostals/ Charismatics/ WOF/NAR, etc.). I acknowledge those associated denominations are less than 200 years old, but don't look now, but there are at least 500 million adherents (much in Latin America, China, and Africa). Jesus provided everything 2000 years ago in his crucifixion and resurrection (1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6) and receiving that benefit requires faith as John 3:14-15 and numerous other scriptures attest. Again, review Post 60 for more information. In your pilgrimage remember that God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4) and God is the Savior of all men (1 Timothy 4:10).

And to repeat,

When you say “cancelled for all”, does that mean God’s wrath is no longer on any person ever?

 

[BNR32FAN]

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:13-14

That’s what happened. At the cross.

That entire passage is pertaining to those who are “in Him”. Look at the preceding verses brother.

“Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭6‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The term “in Him” is repeated over and over. And you still refuse to answer the simple question I’ve asked twice now, we’re the people that Peter was speaking to in Acts 2 & 3 forgiven of their sins before they repented and believed?

 

[Hammster]

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...would-have-sent-some-disciples-there.8270548/

That entire passage is pertaining to those who are “in Him”. Look at the preceding verses brother.

“Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭6‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The term “in Him” is repeated over and over. And you still refuse to answer the simple question I’ve asked twice now, we’re the people that Peter was speaking to in Acts 2 & 3 forgiven of their sins before they repented and believed?

Their sins were atoned for. This means that God’s wrath was not on them, even though their natures were those of the children of wrath. They were unregenerate and unrepentant until they heard the gospel, the Holy Spirit gave them new life, they repented and placed their trust in Christ, and were made righteous.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sheep is a metaphor for follower. Although believers are followers, they are not born followers and never get four legs and you cannot pull wool over their eyes. Sheep is not a term used frequently in Acts and the Epistles as parables and metaphors were not needed. Although men do not seek God, He seeks us, and we can choose to believe as faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17) and we can choose what we listen to.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. ​

I agree, there are several examples of Jesus trying to save people who will not be saved.

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Jesus said this to people who were seeking to kill Him and at the end of the chapter He says that Moses will be their accuser.

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice despite Jesus’ efforts to save the tree the outcome is still uncertain and is dependent upon what the tree decides to do.

“I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Same situation here

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And here. These verses, along with many others, destroy Calvin’s theology.

 

[Hammster]

There’s a good sheep discussion going on here. This thread really isn’t the place for it.

 

[John Mullally]

When you say “cancelled for all”, does that mean God’s wrath is no longer on any person ever?

Where did you see that I used the term "cancelled for all"?

You can get my answer from the last paragraph of Post 60.

 

[Hammster]

Where did you see that I used the term "cancelled for all"?

Right here.

The debt is cancelled for all,

You can get my answer from the last paragraph of Post 60.

It’s not clear, but I’ll assume that you think that the atonement satisfied God’s wrath for every person who ever lived and who will ever live. You can correct me if I’ve misunderstood your position.

If that’s the case, what sins are people in hell punished for?

 

[BNR32FAN]

How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

Their sins were atoned for. This means that God’s wrath was not on them, even though their natures were those of the children of wrath. They were unregenerate and unrepentant until they heard the gospel, the Holy Spirit gave them new life, they repented and placed their trust in Christ, and were made righteous.

No it doesn’t mean that God’s wrath was not on them. God’s wrath continued to be upon them until they came to Christ. Jesus paid the price and He is the One who decides who will receive atonement. When we came to Him we were still dead in our transgressions. That means that our sins were not atoned at the time of His crucifixion. If they were atoned at the time of His crucifixion then they wouldn’t have still been dead in their trespasses.

“When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Hammster]

No it doesn’t mean that God’s wrath was not on them. God’s wrath continued to be upon them until they came to Christ. Jesus paid the price and He is the One who decides who will receive atonement. When we came to Him we were still dead in our transgressions. That means that our sins were not atoned at the time of His crucifixion. If they were atoned at the time of His crucifixion then they wouldn’t have still been dead in their trespasses.

“When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

See how it says “having nailed”? It doesn’t say “and will keep getting nailed when sinners repent”.

 

[fhansen]

Again, how can there be anger for past sins when they were future sins at the moment of atonement?

The atonement is universal-affecting people in every part of history. It knows no time boundaries. Anyone who is saved are saved by the merits of Christ. It takes effect in a person's life the moment they come to believe. Our past sins are forgiven and we're empowered to overcome sin.