Propitiation

[fhansen]

This is a concept I never understood. How is it possible for one to appease oneself? Can you do that? Basically like, you break my window. and I pay for it? All is good as long as you ask forgiveness?

Well, that's what God did. It's more like now knowing the forgiveness is there, despite our sinfulness. It's to come to know love, and that God is love. That changes man's perspective on Him-and on our purpose.

 

[Hammster]

We see instances of human self-sacrifice, such as a solider diving on a grenade to save his partners. People sacrifice in other "lesser" ways as well.

How is that propitious?

 

[fhansen]

How is that propitious?

It's the sacrifice of oneself so that another doesn't have to pay the price. God paid the price in human flesh that His justice demands -of human sin.

 

[Hammster]

It's the sacrifice of oneself so that another doesn't have to pay the price. God paid the price in human flesh that His justice demands -of human sin.

So then no human has to pay for his or her sins?

 

[fhansen]

So then no human has to pay for his or her sins?

No human other than the human-God has to pay for their past sins if they care enough to accept. I've forgiven people who went on to commit the same offense against me-they could care less about my forgiveness.

 

[Hammster]

No human other than the human-God has to pay for their past sins if they care enough to accept.

First it’s “God paid the price in human flesh that His justice demands -of human sin.” Now it’s “past sins”, but only if they accept. It’s like nailing jello to a wall with each post.

 

[fhansen]

First it’s “God paid the price in human flesh that His justice demands -of human sin.” Now it’s “past sins”, but only if they accept. It’s like nailing jello to a wall with each post.

Nonsense. I've never hinted that its for all sin carte blanc: past, present, future. And I've consistently maintianed that its contingent on our acceptance, and continued acceptance. As I already said: God paid the price, now we must do our part.

 

[Hammster]

Nonsense. I've never hinted that its for all sin carte blanc: past, present, future. And I've consistently maintianed that its contingent on our acceptance, and continued acceptance. As I already said: God paid the price, now we must do our part.

But you said that propitiation was “To appease, reconcile.” Care to modify that based on the above?

 

[fhansen]

We turn to God in faith as we turn away from the sin that we now acknowledge, accepting His forgviness for that sin that condemns us. From there we continue refraining from sin as His children should and must, but the right way now, by grace, by the power of the Spirit who enables us to overcome the sin that we were never created to participate in to begin with. If we turn back away from Him and to the flesh we can, with a true change of heart and repentance we can turn back to Him again, restoring the relationship that is the basis of our salvation. As I said before, forgiveness is always available, but we're not then expected to 'go, and continue to sin'.

 

[fhansen]

But you said that propitiation was “To appease, reconcile.” Care to modify that based on the above?

God is appeased. As I said, He did His part.... But, salvation is not universal, so the question: do we care if He's appeased? Do we even acknowledge our sin? Do we even acknowledege Him?

 

[Hammster]

We turn to God in faith as we turn away from the sin that we now acknowledge, accepting His forgviness for that sin that condemns us. From there we continue refraining from sin as His children should and must, but the right way now, by grace, by the power of the Spirit who enables us to overcome the sin that we were never created to participate in to begin with. If we turn back away from Him and to the flesh we can, with a true change of heart and repentance we can turn back to Him again, restoring the relationship that is the basis of our salvation. As I said before, forgiveness is always available, but we're not then expected to 'go, and continue to sin'.

The thread is about propitiation.

 

[Hammster]

God is appeased. As I said, He did His part.... But, salvation is not universal, so the question: do we care if He's appeased? Do we even acknowledge our sin? Do we even acknowledege Him?

If He’s appeased, that means He no longer holds men’s sins against them. Our response doesn’t matter.

 

[fhansen]

If He’s appeased, that means He no longer holds men’s sins against them. Our response doesn’t matter.

Only if salvation is universal since sin is the problem between ourselves and Him to begin with. It's a two-way street; Jesus takes away that sin-and doesn't expect it to return as He also gives us the righteousness by which to overcome it. Reconciliation is effective for any one of us only as we respond by faith. And that reconciliation between man and God means the gift of righteousness for man as God is the source of the real thing and alienation from Him guarantees unrighteousness/sin.

Man must respond to God's graciousness and live that way-and the bible lists many ways of our doing that. Matt 6:14-15 tells us that God won't forgive our sins unless we forgive the sins of others, reciprocating in showing the love that He's shown us. The parable of the unforgiving servant demonstrates the same truth.

 

[Hammster]

Only if salvation is universal since sin is the problem between ourselves and Him to begin with. It's a two-way street; Jesus takes away that sin-and doesn't expect it to return as He also gives us the righteousness by which to overcome it. Reconciliation is effective for any one of us only as we respond by faith. And that reconciliation between man and God means the gift of righteousness for man as God is the source of the real thing and alienation from Him guarantees unrighteousness/sin.

Man must respond to God's graciousness and live that way-and the bible lists many ways of our doing that. Matt 6:14-15 tells us that God won't forgive our sins unless we forgive the sins of others, reciprocating in showing the love that He's shown us. The parable of the unforgiving servant demonstrates the same truth.

Then God’s wrath isn’t really appeased. You’re trying to have it both ways. The way you have it is that Christ’s death took away sin, and the Father might just give it back.

 

[fhansen]

Then God’s wrath isn’t really appeased. You’re trying to have it both ways. The way you have it is that Christ’s death took away sin, and the Father might just give it back.

Man might just give it back: the sin, that is, that caused God's wrath to begin with. I don't make the rules but God's word says that man must live justly in order to inherit eternal life. And that can only be done with a life of grace, which can only be done as we remain in Him. If we return to the flesh, to sin, then we aren't remaining in Him, regardless of any profession to the contrary.

 

[Hammster]

Man might just give it back: the sin, that is, that caused God's wrath to begin with. I don't make the rules but God's word says that man must live justly in order to inherit eternal life. And that can only be done with a life of grace, which can only be done as we remain in Him. If we return to the flesh, to sin, then we aren't remaining in Him, regardless of any profession to the contrary.

We aren’t talking about eternal life. The subject is propitiation.

 

[fhansen]

We aren’t talking about eternal life. The subject is propitiation.

It's important to know the function of propitiation. It makes eternal life possible-but doesn't guarnatee it if we don't care-or stop caring. God is appeased for the sins of all men, willing to take up residence within them. If they open the door when He knocks.

 

[Hammster]

It's important to know the function of propitiation. It makes eternal life possible-but doesn't guarnatee it if we don't care-or stop caring. God is appeased for the sins of all men, willing to take up residence within them. If they open the door when He knocks.

So can we agree that propitiation means that God’s wrath is satisfied irrespective of man’s actions?

 

[Clare73]

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:1-2
It’s is commonly understood that propitiation is the atoning sacrifice that appeases God’s wrath. That’s the definition I’m going with here. Looking at this passage, we can conclude one of two things. God's wrath was satisfied for some or for all. Those who think it’s for all take “whole world” prima facia and say God loved the whole world and bore the sins of every man. Those who say it’s only for some look at the context and see the “our sins” as John’s immediate audience, and “whole world” as indicating that it’s just not his audience, but others throughout the world.
My argument against the former is that if God’s wrath is satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, then He would be unjust for sending anyone to hell. It would be akin to someone paying off my house in full, yet the bank foreclosing on my house. That would not be just.

So it’s best to see “whole world” as referencing people throughout the world, as opposed to every single person in the world.

In the context of Jewish reference points being a distinction between Jew and Gentile, whole world simply means both are now included.

 

[d taylor]

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No because the issue that causes a person to end up in the lake of fire is not sin, as all sin has been forgiven.

Why then does a person end up in the lake of fire, because that person remained an unbeliever their whole earthly life. A person who remains an unbeliever, that never was a believer. They never received God's free gift of Eternal Life (salvation) and became a born again child of God.

So the only place for a person who lacks the life of God is the lake of fire. At the great white throne one is not sent to the lake of fire, till their name is not found in The book of Life. Sin is never mention as a reason, why because sin has been forgiven.