Gog and Magog in Revelation and Ezekiel

[TribulationSigns]

Make sense of some of the following for us then.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel ; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more : and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

God's people Israel is a congregation Israel, made up of all chosen Jews and Gentiles from the Old and New Testament periods who are also Daniel's people, Ezekiel's people, Peter's people, Paul's people! There is only one congregation in Israel. Not the nation Israel. Like I said you got it wrong Israel.

How is any of this applicable to Revelation 20:7-9?

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years

Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

If Revelation 20:7-9 is involving Ezekiel 38-39, this would indicate that verse 9 and 12 above would be involving the aftermath. Which then means you now have to explain this 7 years and this 7 months, post that of Revelation 20:7-9.

Look, the problem is that you reading into Scripture thinking God is talking about a literal 7 months or 7 years, just like the JEws who thought Christ was talking about the physical temple that they are gong to destroy.

You need to learn to find spiritual signification behind the number. The number 7 in Scirpture is often numerical symbology illustrating the 'totality or completeness' of whatever is in view. For example, the seven Churches of Asia (Revelation 1-3) represent the 'totality' of God's congregations (nothing to do with dispensationalism). This can be clearly seen as God says Christ stands in the midst of the seven candlesticks. This signifies that Christ stands in the midst of all Churches 'which are represented by these seven Churches' of Asia. Likewise, they are called seven golden candlesticks signifying that they are to be what the Old Testament called the [tamiyd], the 'Continual' or the 'Daily.' They are to be the light of the world shining continually. This can also be seen in the seven stars of the seven candlesticks (Churches) which are the seven messengers of the Churches, and they are in God's right hand. These are all the messengers of the Churches whom God holds securely and who do His will (the right hand). The truth is when God talks to these seven Churches, He is not talking to just those, He is talking to all believers and to all Churches. The totality of them spans throughout time. We today are part of the seven (totality) Churches to whom God gives these warnings and encouragements.
Revelation 2:7

• "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches: To Him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

God is talking to US! That is why these things found themselves recorded on pages to become scripture. To think that these messages were only to the seven literal Churches of that literal place in Asia that only will eat the tree of life is foolish. This is why they are directed to 'he who hath an ear to hear.' It is something that will NOT be understood by all, but only by the true believers who actual compares Scripture with Scripture. The totality or complete Church throughout time!. And the number seven signifies this totality. It is a Blessing to the faithful Church, and a warning to the unfaithful church. Overcome, and live, forsake God, and He will remove your Candlestick out of it's place. The seven Churches of Asia stand to represent ALL the Churches. The complete Church from then until our day. Not seven physical churches!

Here is another example. This symbolism is in the episode of the seven baskets full of fragments that was taken up when Jesus did His miracles.

Matthew 15:37

• "And they did eat, and were filled, and they took up of the broken that was left, seven baskets full."

It is the totality of baskets taken up. Number seven illustrates that these baskets were 'completely' full. Upon careful consideration of the example, it illustrates there was still enough left over for the totality of all who are to eat of the leftover crumbs of bread. The baskets left were still totally full. This of course is the spiritual 'signification' that there are enough crumbs left over for the Gentiles also!! Didn't you remember the parable of the dogs eating the crumbs from their master's table, and the dogs were type of the Gentiles?

Mark 7:28

• "And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs".

..it is enough! This woman was a Gentiles and Christ was using her as an example! The crumbs from the children's (Jews) table is enough to feed the 'totality' of the dogs (gentiles) who come after. Get it?! This is what the seven baskets of crumbs signify that totality. Spiritual discerned! For example, the miracle of Christ feeding Israel was not only enough for the Jews, but also enough crumbs left over for the totality of those Gentiles who would eat the leftovers! It would feed both the First (Jews), and the Last (Gentiles). This is just part of the magnificent spiritual pictures that God incorporates into His Holy Word. So, you need to consider carefully that the number seven signified the completeness of what is being spoken about. Get it?

Now it is up to you, if you have spiritual ears, to figure it out what the seven months and seven years in Ezekiel are really about. That would be your homework!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years

Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

If Revelation 20:7-9 is involving Ezekiel 38-39, this would indicate that verse 9 and 12 above would be involving the aftermath. Which then means you now have to explain this 7 years and this 7 months, post that of Revelation 20:7-9.

Like I pointed out to @TribulationSigns, If Ezekiel 39-39 and Revelation 20:7-9 are involving the same events, this would obviously mean that
Ezekiel 39:9 and Ezekiel 39:12 would be involving it's aftermath. Which then means one now has to explain this 7 years, this 7 months, post that of the end of satan's little season. At the end of satan's little season it is the great white throne judgment that fits after that, not 7 years, not 7 months, involving an aftermath. That alone is a very good reason to not conflate Ezekiel 38-39 with that of Revelation 20:7-9.

The problem is that you believe that Ezekiel 39:9 and 12 will be the "aftermath" of the LITERAL battle of Gog and Magog that you believe God will have people physically clean up the guns, missiles, tanks, ammos, chemicals, etc. off the land and burn them literally that will last exactly 7 calendar years and 7 months to bury them in the land before or after Christ's return however you see fit with your doctrine. This is not what God talks about. But I will wait until you figure out what 7 months and 7 years refer to after I have explained it in my last post.

 

[TribulationSigns]

David, I don't know how many times I've told you that the New Testament sheds light on the Old Testament prophecies. I don't believe we need to get bogged down with trying to figure Ezekiel 39 out.

Right. The problem is that the Dispenstationists are trying to apply same national Israel, same Jews, same Jersaulem, and same literal temple to Ezekiel 38/39 as if God will deal with them again after the church raptures out. Not the case.

We have all the info we need in the New Testament where the NT authors shed light on the Old Testament prophecies. I don't see any way to reconcile a literal, futuristic interpretation of Ezekiel 38-39 with what is taught in the New Testament. In my view, the New Testament very clearly teaches that Christ will destroy all unbelievers and even the heavens and the earth when He returns and He will put an end to all wickedness at that point.

Agrees.

So, to me, interpreting Ezekiel 39 in a literal, futuristic way contradicts what is taught in the New Testament. Unlike you, I don't feel the need to have Ezekiel 39 explained before I can draw conclusions about what is going to happen. The New Testament gives us the answers we need without having to rack our brains trying to figure passages like Ezekiel 39 out.

Amen.

 

[Zao is life]

Obviously, no believer, martyred or not, will be cast into the lake of fire.

Fire coming down from heaven and destroying the ones who gather against the camp of the saints and the beloved city (New Jerusalem) is not the same as being cast into the lake of fire, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. And the beloved city (new Jerusalem) will need to have already come down from God out of heaven (Revelation 21:2) in order for it to be surrounded by the armies of Gog-Magog.

 

[Zao is life]

So, you don't think him having the power of death taken away from him (Heb 2:14-15) resulted in him being restrained at all? Do you think the huge increase in the number of people being saved in New Testament times compared to Old Testament times had nothing to do with the impact the gospel of Christ has had on Satan in the world?

The power of the spread of the gospel and of Christ's Kingdom in the world is the Holy Spirit, not "the binding of Satan", as though he ever had more power than God and could ever prohibit what God wants to accomplish.

In my opinion what you are saying above is tantamount to saying that Satan will be given the power over death again that the death and resurrection of the Son of God and Son of man took away from him forever.

Satan will be no more or less restrained during the days of the apostasy of saints and lawlessness of both Christians and the son of perdition mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 than he was was when God removed His constraint, and Satan entered into the son of perdition, Judas Iscariot.

Satan was no more or less restrained when God called Moses and the kingdom of God came near in the kingdom of Satan (Pharaoh's kingdom) in the last days of God's elect's bondage in Egypt when Pharaoh was increasing the temperature of their tribulation and continually hardening his heart, and God was soon to deliver His elect from their bondage in the kingdom of Satan (Pharaoh's kingdom).

Satan was no more or less restrained when God was giving His two witnesses in Egypt - Moses and Aaron - power to bring plagues upon Egypt, and Satan was doing his lying wonders and miracles through Pharaoh's magicians.

Satan has always been restrained by God to lesser and greater degrees over time. In my opinion the restraining of Satan does not equate with Satan being bound so that he is rendered incapable of deceiving the nations.

In my opinion only by conflating the two things can you claim that this is the case, in the same way that you conflate the destruction of Satan's power over death forever through the death and resurrection of Christ with the binding of Satan so that he is incapable of deceiving the nations.

And though Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the god of this Age" and "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13), and though the saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ),

you say that Satan is bound in terms of his ability to deceive the nations, because he somehow has been more restrained by God than he had ever been in the past because Christ destroyed his power over death (his works) forever.

And though Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, i.e this Age; and though Revelation Chapters 12-13 show Satan going to war first against the woman who gave birth to the Messiah then against the rest of her seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, and portrays this status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7),

yet you say that Satan is bound in terms of his ability to deceive the nations because you claim that he has been more restrained by God than he ever was in the past, or than he was before God removed the restraint and allowed him to first tempt and then enter into the son of perdition, Judas Iscariot.

And though every single verse in the New Testament mentioning the resurrection and the concept of the resurrection (anastasis, égersis, anístēmi, egeírō) is associating said resurrection with the bodily resurrection from the dead to take place at the last day through Christ's bodily resurrection of the dead, and though the words anastasis, égersis, anístēmi, and egeírō are never associated with a 'spiritual' resurrection in the New Testament, yet you say that when it's mentioned in Revelation 20:5-6, it's referring not to the bodily resurrection from the dead of those who had been martyred for their testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast, but to a 'spiritual' resurrection.

These are the reasons why in my opinion Amillenialism does nothing but conflate the binding of Satan mentioned in Revelation 20 with the restraining of Satan, and the bodily resurrection from the dead mentioned in Revelation 20:5-6 with the new birth (Amillennialism must conflate these things in order for it to hold ground).

But at the end of the day it matters little to God whether I'm wrong to believe what I believe, or you are wrong to believe what you believe, because God knows - and Christ's only commandment is His one and only commandment:

1 John 3
23 And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 And he who keeps His commandment dwells in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He gave to us.

I'm ashamed to say that debating this issue with you in the past has led me only to become angry and rude at times.

You know why I don't believe that the millennium precedes the return of Christ, and I know why you believe that it does, and we both know that we will never agree on this issue. But thankfully we still agree on many other issues.

God bless and have a great weekend.​

 

[Andrewn]

No. No resurrection at the end of the millennium. . . . I do not believe in two resurrections with one being at the beginning of the millennium and the other at the close of it.

Then, when are the unfaithful raised?

At the close of the millennium once Satan has been unbound, that is when the faithful sheep will once again and for the last time be separated from those who will turn/fall away at that point - in much the same way as before the return of Christ there will be a falling away (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3). And in the same way that Adam fell away when he was living forever in the garden of Eden.

What happens to those who stay faithful and those who fall away at that point? Why does this whole world drama have to be played again?

 

[Bobgf]

Hi Bob, I want to make sure that the tone of my post comes across to be nothing but friendly, although we may disagree.

Messianic's identify themselves as Jews who are Christians - but want to hang onto their Jewish identity of being part of Israel - so they refer to themselves as Messianic's (Jews, being implied) who hold to their belief that Jesus is the messiah.

There will be a new heaven and new earth, but not until after the messianic age and the Great White Throne Judgement. During the messianic age is when lifespans will be lengthened and the preying nature of the predator animals will no longer exist - at least in the Jerusalem area.

In this present age - the age when man lives without God's direct visible presence here on earth as the Lord - Satan's kingdom is spiritual (called Mystery Babylon the Great) and he and his angels occupy the second heaven (the cosmos) and earth (including the first heaven, earth's atmosphere). They are not allowed in the third heaven - unless summoned to appear before God.

The Revelation 12:7-9 event will be in the middle part of the 7 years, when the 7th trumpet sounds. Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth - from the second heaven - as God begins dismantling Satan's spiritual kingdom. In Revelation 18, Babylon is fallen, is fallen is talking about Satan and his angels cast down to earth. And the rest of the chapter continues the sudden demise with an analogy of a great trading city, rich, and powerful, but having gotten so immorally, coming to its end.

Jesus has already come into his kingdom, when he ascended to heaven, and was given the kingdom of heaven in Daniel 7:13-14. When Jesus returns to this earth, he will bring with him the kingdom of heaven - to become the Kingdom of God here on this earth. Part of the prayer that we say as taught by Jesus, i.e. the Lord's prayer - Your Kingdom come, Your Will be done on earth as it is in heaven - looking forward to that day. Matthew 6:9-13.

Hi Doug, I've read many of your posts, mostly your exchanges with keras, so I sense you to be a friendly person.

I pretty much agree with most of what you've posted above with this exception -
"when the 7th trumpet sounds. Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth"
I agree that this happens circa mid 70th week but I don't see 7th trumpet happen then.

Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding of your position is you believe that the seven seals all happen during the seven years of Daniel's 70th week. I think this is where we mainly disagree. We disagree on when the seals occur.


I believe the span of the seven seals occur over the span of many years.

I may be wrong but IMO the first five seals all occur in this present evil age.
This includes Daniel's 70th week, the Millennium and the Gog/Magog event. I believe these three events all occur in this present evil age, during the first five seals.

Then the sixth seal brings in the messianic age with the new heavens and the renewed earth of Isaiah 65:17 where the righteous will live for hundreds of years.
And I believe this messianic age will last thousands of years fulfilling God's covenant promise to give Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the land of Canaan for a thousand generations Psalm 105:8-11 and 1 Chron 16:15-18

Finally, the seventh seal with the seven trumpets and bowls. I believe these horrific events are reserved strictly for the heathens at the end of the messianic age. The seventh seal events are for the all the ungodly sinners. It's God's punishment on all the unrepentant sinners who ever lived 2 Peter 3:7 the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Bob..

 

[Trivalee]

I would say that what is wrong with the picture I presented in #71 above is that it's a false picture.

The three sequential passages from Rev 19:11 through Rev 20:10 do not chronologically belong at the end of the age just before the GWT Judgment.
IMO these three sequential passages fit chronologically just before the sixth seal.

In the sixth seal, Rev 6:12-14, the sky vanishes like a rolled up scroll, and every mountain and island are removed from its place. This catastrophic episode is a worldly transition from the this present evil age to the Olam Haba (world to come)

The Rider on a White Horse passage, The Thousand Years passage, and the Gog/Magog passage in Rev 19:11 through Rev 20:10 are three sequential passages which all belonging chronologically to this present evil age. They do not belong in the age of the World to come.


Bob..

Rev 6:13-14 are figurative and cannot be rendered as literal. It makes zero sense to believe that the stars of heaven literally fell to earth, that heaven departed as a scroll or that the mountains literally moved out of their places either. If you believe that, you must explain which heaven fled from the face of the Lord in Rev 20:11.

But whatever you do, please don't tell your readers that heaven fled and came back (or perhaps replaced) only to flee again in the age to come at the GWTJ. That will be junk doctrine, sir!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Fire coming down from heaven and destroying the ones who gather against the camp of the saints and the beloved city (New Jerusalem) is not the same as being cast into the lake of fire, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. And the beloved city (new Jerusalem) will need to have already come down from God out of heaven (Revelation 21:2) in order for it to be surrounded by the armies of Gog-Magog.

Rev 20:7-10
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The camp of the Saints and the Beloved city are one and the same - the CHURCH! She is where Satan wants to gather His army of false prophets and christs against her all over the world. The church is everywhere, wherever the Saints are found worshipping. Not a physical city in the Middle East. Not a Holy City from heaven. God is talking about His New Testament congregation prior to Second Coming. This is the judgment of the unfaithful church. Not a literal fire from heaven upon a literal city or whatever. The fire signifies God's judgment. upon His unfaithful church. Remember in Revelation 18, that God is sending the plagues upon the unfaithful city where He wants His people to come out of to avoid it. So it's not literal fire.
After the hour of the judgment of the unfaithful city is finished - - ONLY THE LORD KNOWS WHEN - - the last trump will sound and Christ shall appear in the sky where all people will see. The devil will be captured and thrown into the Lake of Fire where all people he has deceived since Cain (beast and the false prophet) will be thrown into the lake of fire.

That's it. There won't be 1,000 literal kingdom after this.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The power of the spread of the gospel and of Christ's Kingdom in the world is the Holy Spirit, not "the binding of Satan", as though he ever had more power than God and could ever prohibit what God wants to accomplish.​

That is incorrect.
The Spirit of God restrains Satan so that He could build the church through His people (Christians) with the power of the Holy Spirit. It is for the purpose of saving people from the world into the Spiritual kingdom of God that Satan can't stop despite that he was still ruler of the (unsaved) world.
If you remember in Revelation 20, Christ has bound Satan at the Cross. Not in the future. He already explained how and WHY:

Mat 12:28-29
(28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Mar 3:26-27
(26) And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
(27) No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Satan is the strong Man. Christ needs to bind him first in order to spoil people from Satan's house (world) through the testimony of Two Witnesses (Gospel). And note that Satan was not strong enough to stop Christ and His church. So you were wrong to think that Satan was more powerful because you believe there are so much evil going on in the world. You misunderstood the purpose of Satan's binding since the Cross. It is not about bringing world peace to the world for one thousand years where there will be no crimes or animals sitting together, or eating fruits while sitting next to a waterfall. No! It is about bringing salvation to the nations of the Earth until the fullness (signifies 1,000 years) of Church building is finished, THEN Satan will be loosened by God to be used against unfaithful congregations which are happening right now...

 

[TribulationSigns]

Rev 6:13-14 are figurative and cannot be rendered as literal. It makes zero sense to believe that the stars of heaven literally fell to earth, that heaven departed as a scroll or that the mountains literally moved out of their places either. If you believe that, you must explain which heaven fled from the face of the Lord in Rev 20:11.

But whatever you do, please don't tell your readers that heaven fled and came back (or perhaps replaced) only to flee again in the age to come at the GWTJ. That will be junk doctrine, sir!

Bingo!

 

[Trivalee]

They are not mortals. They are not born in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Being a mortal is being in a body of death, ie mortal.

An interesting theory indeed. Please clarify, are they flesh and blood or not?

 

[Trivalee]

It was mostly Jews who slaughtered other Jews in 70 AD. Josephus described the Romans as agents of God just as the prophets called Nebuchadnezzar.

Are you saying the Romans were only spectators to the massacre?

 

[Trivalee]

Why is that a problem for you? We can all see in Revelation 20:7-9 (I believe 2 Thess 2:3-12 talks about that time as well) that he will be unrestrained for a short time at the end. Doesn't that imply that he would have all the power that he once had for that short time?

What is your understanding of 2 Thess 2:3-12 as it relates to what Satan is able to do during the time Paul describes? What is it that you think he's able to do during that time that he's not able to do before that time? Do you think that the mass falling away Paul described has anything to do with Satan having a greater influence during that time than before?

Again, this makes me wonder how you interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 which talks about wickedness going from being restrained to unrestrained for some time in the future with verse 9 indicating that Satan will have something to do with that. Yes, Satan's fate was sealed forever long ago already, but he will still be allowed an unrestrained "little season" in the future before he is finally cast into the lake of fire forever.

We are currently living in that period of falling away (apostasy) spoken of in 2 Thess 2:3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Note that the falling away will lead to the appearance of the Antichrist. So, there's no basis to claim the falling away will occur at the end of the millennium when satan is released from prison. IOW, we are now living in the age of unrestrained wickedness and it will increase proportionately until the bad guy shows up. Look around the world and you'll see a lot of evil going on that makes little or no sense.

 

[Trivalee]

Then, when are the unfaithful raised?

The unfaithful will rise at the end of the millennium when the GWTJ is set up to face judgment. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead [the unfaithful] lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[DavidPT]

God's people Israel is a congregation Israel, made up of all chosen Jews and Gentiles from the Old and New Testament periods who are also Daniel's people, Ezekiel's people, Peter's people, Paul's people! There is only one congregation in Israel. Not the nation Israel. Like I said you got it wrong Israel.

IOW, we are to understand some of the following like such, correct?

(Israel, made up of all chosen Jews and Gentiles from the Old and New Testament periods who are also Daniel's people, Ezekiel's people, Peter's people, Paul's people)---we will call what I have in parenthesis (A), so that way I don't have to keep pasting those entire sentences every time. So, when I say (A) that is meaning what you said that I have in parenthesis.


Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel(A) ; and I will not let them(A) pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel(A) shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 ¶And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel(A) went into captivity for their(A) iniquity: because they(A) trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them(A), and gave them(A) into the hand of their(A) enemies: so fell they(A) all by the sword.
24 According to their(A) uncleanness and according to their(A) transgressions have I done unto them(A), and hid my face from them(A).
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel(A), and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they(A) have borne their(A) shame, and all their(A) trespasses whereby they(A) have trespassed against me, when they(A) dwelt safely in their(A) land, and none made them(A) afraid.
27 When I have brought them(A) again from the people, and gathered them(A) out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them(A) in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they(A) know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them(A) to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them(A) unto their(A) own land, and have left none of them(A) any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them(A) : for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel(A), saith the Lord GOD.

And you seriously find this making sense of the text?? Usually though, when it's something bad pertaining to Israel in the OT, interpreters, such as you, have it meaning unbelieving Israel in that case. But when it pertains to something pleasant about Israel in the OT, interpreters, such as you, have it meaning the NT church. You must be the exception then, since a lot of this is involving bad things pertaining to Israel, such as God having to hide His face from them, and here you are having Israel to be meaning the church here.

 

[Bobgf]

Rev 6:13-14 are figurative and cannot be rendered as literal. It makes zero sense to believe that the stars of heaven literally fell to earth, that heaven departed as a scroll or that the mountains literally moved out of their places either. If you believe that, you must explain which heaven fled from the face of the Lord in Rev 20:11.

But whatever you do, please don't tell your readers that heaven fled and came back (or perhaps replaced) only to flee again in the age to come at the GWTJ. That will be junk doctrine, sir!

I don't think you really want an answer, Trivalee, but here goes:

I think the stars falling from heaven that John saw in his vision may refer to the tens of thousands of low orbiting satellites that Elon Musk and the Chinese are planning to launch soon. When the new heavens come, these satellites will be seen falling to earth and will look like stars falling.

Or it could be other huge celestial objects like asteroids having a close encounter with the earth and breaking up and falling due to the gravitational forces. Isaiah 24:19-20 speaks of the earth staggering like a drunkard and violently broken. I think this staggering and breaking up of the earth must certainly be caused by extraterrestrial forces.

Or the stars falling and the mountains moving in Rev 6:13-14 may just be a reference to the new heavens and new/renewed earth of Isaiah 65:17

But when these heavens and earth flee from Him who sits on the throne, Rev 20:11, that's it! There gone!

Bob..

 

[DavidPT]

David, I don't know how many times I've told you that the New Testament sheds light on the Old Testament prophecies. I don't believe we need to get bogged down with trying to figure Ezekiel 39 out.

We have all the info we need in the New Testament where the NT authors shed light on the Old Testament prophecies. I don't see any way to reconcile a literal, futuristic interpretation of Ezekiel 38-39 with what is taught in the New Testament. In my view, the New Testament very clearly teaches that Christ will destroy all unbelievers and even the heavens and the earth when He returns and He will put an end to all wickedness at that point.

So, to me, interpreting Ezekiel 39 in a literal, futuristic way contradicts what is taught in the New Testament. Unlike you, I don't feel the need to have Ezekiel 39 explained before I can draw conclusions about what is going to happen. The New Testament gives us the answers we need without having to rack our brains trying to figure passages like Ezekiel 39 out.

If we are posting in a section of this board involving Eschatology, and that some of us perceive that Ezekiel 38-39 is Eschatological, and that one of our passions is Eschatology, why shouldn't we want to rack our brains trying to figure out how Ezekiel 38-39 fits in the scheme of things? The fact these things are written in the OT, and that God was the speaker in these verses, pertaining to Ezekiel 38-39 in this case, that obviously means God finds these things to be important, to be relevant, otherwise, why did God even bother bringing any of these things up to begin with?

We can't rely on one testament alone and be satisfied that that is all there is needed to know. Look how that's working out for unbelieving Jews. In their mind, they have the OT, therefore, everything needed to be known, they already have it. Therefore, they don't need the NT as well. When I would think that any Christian would agree that both testaments are needed in order to see the bigger picture.

And what about in Matthew 24, for instance? Where Jesus says to consider what Daniel said? Did Daniel say that in the NT or in the OT? If the NT only sheds light on the OT, and not vice-versa as well, wonder why Jesus didn't fully realize that, the fact He indicated one needs to consider what Daniel recorded in the OT in order to shed further light on what He is meaning in Matthew 24?

Let's face it. Daniel had way more things to say about some of these things than Jesus did at the time. Which should mean that the OT is shedding further light on what Jesus said in the Discourse pertaining to this. What Jesus said was compressed. What Daniel said was detailed, thus filling in some of the missing details. In order to fill in the missing details, one can't just go to Daniel ch 9 alone and think that explains everything. One also needs to consider Daniel 7, 8, 10, 11, and 12. And then we still need to factor in 2 Thessalonians 2, the book of Revelation, to name a few, and how some of that relates to what is recorded in the book of Daniel, and what Jesus said in the Discourse involving this subject.

Anyway, right or wrong, that's my mindset pertaining to these things.

 

[Andrewn]

Are you saying the Romans were only spectators to the massacre?

Yes, most of the time. The Romans did interfere in the last stages of the war.

The unfaithful will rise at the end of the millennium when the GWTJ is set up to face judgment. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead [the unfaithful] lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Yes, you're right.

 

[Douggg]

I agree that this happens circa mid 70th week but I don't see 7th trumpet happen then.

Hi Bob,

It is a matter of putting together information from Revelation 12, 11, 8, 9.

First key is the timeframes expressed...

1. In Revelation 12:6 is 1260 days, then in Revelation 12:7-9, the war in the second heaven and Satan and his angels cast down to earth.

2. In Revelation 11 are those same 1260 days, then the two witnesses killed, brought back to life ascend to heaven, then the 7th trumpet sounds, Revelation 11:14-15.

consolidated - 1260 days, then the 7th trumpet sounds, then Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels down to earth. Satan having great wrath, woe to the inhabitants to the earth and sea. Revelation 12:12.

the woes - In Revelation 8:13, the last three trumpets are called woe trumpets.

Revelation 9:2-12 the 5th trumpet, the first woe is identified
Revelation 9:13-21 the 6th trumpet, the second woe is identified.

Revelation 12:12 the 7th trumpet, the third woe is identified. Satan cast down, falling to earth, the star in Revelation 9:1

consolidated - Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath. He is given the key to opening the bottomless pit, to free his cohorts. The flesh tormenting locust led by Abaddon, their king. 5 months of pain they cause.

Then near the end of the 7 years, the 200,000,000 man army that destroys a third of mankind still alive at the time.