Gog and Magog in Revelation and Ezekiel

[Andrewn]

Being killed for not worshiping the beast or his image etc is only mentioned in Revelation 13 and Revelation 20:4-6, where (Revelation 20:4-6) it's connected with the anastasis (the bodily resurrection), and where those John saw were zao (alive in their bodies) though they had been beheaded for refusal to worship the beast.

I get that you're not an amillennialist. But you don't seem to believe in the dispensational view of premillennialism, either. So what exactly is your Millennial view? You attempted to prove your view in post #73 without stating what view you were trying to prove.

And there is also the fact that nowhere in scripture are we told that Satan was bound at Calvary. In fact, scripture teaches us the exact opposite: Not only does Revelation 12:9 call Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world", but Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ). Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

We don't have to discuss your objections to Amillennialism again. Both myself and @Spiritual Jew have already responded to these arguments. Let's discuss your premillennial view.

 

[Zao is life]

I get that you're not an amillennialist. But you don't seem to believe in the dispensational view of premillennialism, either. So what exactly is your Millennial view? You attempted to prove your view in post #73 without stating what view you were trying to prove.


We don't have to discuss your objections to Amillennialism again. Both myself and @Spiritual Jew have already responded to these arguments. Let's discuss your premillennial view.

Side-stepped the scriptural problems with Amillennialism rather nicely there, Andrewn

@Andrewn Anyway it doesn't matter what my millennial view is, or anyone else's. The apostles asked Jesus questions which showed they did not fully understand (such as in Acts 1:6-9). And although the scriptures do not say this, my guess is that they had Zechariah 14 in mind, which told of the Messiah setting His feet on the Mount of Olives and fighting against the nations gathered against Jerusalem.

Seated on the Mount of Olives, He told them that Jerusalem and its temple would not be exalted above the hills (Isaiah 2:2-4), but both would be destroyed. He also told them that the Messiah would not go out and fight against the nations. Instead His own people were going to kill Him and He would rise again on the third day.

Standing on the Mount of Olives immediately before His ascension and though He had told them 42 days earlier that the gospel of the Kingdom would first be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations before the end would come, they asked Him what we today with hindsight can (all to easily for us) say was a silly question (silly to us only because of our hindsight).

Jesus turned their understanding of prophecy on its head - and they were His apostles. I believe He will do the same with us when He returns. So it makes no difference who is right or wrong about the millennium.

Like all amills I believe New Jerusalem will descend from God out of heaven to the earth in a new heavens and new earth when Christ has returned (not after another one thousand years).

Like all Premils I believe that the thousand years follows the return of Christ.

Unlike anyone else, I believe that just as Adam was permitted to eat freely of the tree of life and knew exactly what God had said, and knew exactly what the words "you will not surely die" implied about God yet chose to sin anyway once God allowed Satan to deceive mankind in the garden, so it will be at the close of the (literal) millennium. OSAS and safety from the 2nd death is promised only to those who had been martyred in Revelation 20 - nothing is said about all the other saints who will be resurrected at the last day.

Adam represents mankind and death came to all men through Adam, and Christ is the second man and the last Adam who died for us and rose again. He IS the resurrection and the Life. Adam did not die and would not have died until He was prevented from eating of the tree of Life. If Adam was tested and failed and the martyred saints were tested and overcame then the sons of Adam who have never been tested as they were and as Adam was, will be tested too.

I do not believe in OSAS for anyone except those who remained faithful to the end:

"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death." Revelation 12:11

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Revelation 20:4-6.

So my belief about the millennium turns everything assumed or believed or understood by most on its head. @Andrewn Even before the return of Jesus, the faithful kings of the earth who are ruled by Christ (Revelation 1:5-6) will be separated from the unfaithful kings of the earth who are ruled by Babylon the Great (Revelation 17:18), those unfaithful kings of the earth who committed fornication with her, and will lament and wail over her demise (Revelation 18:9). They are hardly the same kings as the 10 kings who "will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire." Revelation 17:16

The unfaithful kings of the earth go so far as to join with the beast in his war against the Lamb, just like the Pharisees of old did (Revelation 19:19). That's why they called to the mountains and rocks to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:15).

And when a thousand years has once again passed in the garden of Eden new heavens and new earth, one more time the last of these unfaithful sons of Adam who had already been resurrected will join up as the Gog-Magog forces at the close of the millennium, after Satan is released one last time again into the garden of Eden new heavens new earth to deceive mankind lone last time, and the remainder of the sons of Adam who had been resurrected but had never been tested the way the martyred saints were and the way Adam was, is tested.

@Andrewn Maybe the final separation will come a thousand years later than we expected, and to a group of people we did not expect (resurrected saints).

Maybe not. Maybe the return of Christ will turn my understanding and your understanding and everyone else's understanding on its head.

It matters not what I believe, or what anyone believes regarding the millennium. It matters only what God knows.

OK now I'm done. I won't add more to this post after having come back 10 times to add more to it.

 

[Bobgf]

What is your source of the term "Olam Haba"? I think you are using a term created by the rabbi's of Judaism who do not respect the information found in the New Testament. The Jews (Judaism) hold to a general view of the messianic age followed by the world to come (their Olam Haba term).

Hi Doug. Im a Gentile who frequents a Messianic website where the Jews do respect both old and new Testaments.

The Olam Haba or world to come I speak of is the new heavens and new earth that Isaiah spoke of in Isaiah 65:17-20. This new world is also where our Lord and his twelve apostles will reign, Matthew 19:28, until the end of that age.

In this present evil age, Satan and his angels reign in the heavenly places Eph 6:12, Eph 2:2

The war in heaven, Rev 12:7-10, will usurp Satan's reign in these heavenly places, . Then the authority to reign there in the heavenly places will pass on to Christ and his saints who will reign there for the thousand year Millennium Rev 20:4

This will bring the Kingdom of God first into heaven, then later God's Kingdom will be extended down onto the earth.

Bob..

 

[TribulationSigns]

If there are last days and a last day, and that the last day is an era of time greater than 24 hours, I don't see the issue, because clearly Christ would have returned at this point. Which means that obviously puts an end to any scoffing.

Let's suppose that the last day is a literal 24 hour day or less. And let's suppose it begins at 11:05 am and concludes at 10 am the following morning.

Per this example, would not this be an era of time since it is involving around 23 hours? Until it is 10 am the following morning, would we not still be in the last days in the meantime? When 11:05 am arrives will there still be anyone scoffing about His coming? Probably not, right? And if we are still in the last days until 23 hours later, this alone proves that the scoffing doesn't continue throughout the entire era of time involving the last days, the fact the last day is also involving the last days, and that they would no longer be scoffing about His coming once He has returned. Let's simply apply this same logic to, if the last day were to consist of more than 24 hours. Why would they still be scoffing during that last day if the last day involves Christ having returned at 11:05 am?

The question is, can the last day consist of an era of time longer than 24 hours? When the real question should be instead, is it even logical that the last day can consist of 24 hours or less?

Rev 10:6-7
(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
(7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15
(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The 7th Trumpet "IS" the Last Trump. When Christ returns on the LAST DAY, at the LAST TRUMP, there will be NO MORE TIME AFTER THIS when the 7th Angel sound.

There will be no more time left for your so-called 7 years period and so-called 1,000 literal kingdom ruling from the Middle East. Once Christ returns, it's over. There will be judgment and eternity.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The chronological order is....

1. The Gog/Magog event, followed by the 7 years of Daniel 9:27, which begin as the rider on the white horse (the Antichrist) confirms the covenant in Daniel 9:27. Creating the perception of a false messianic age - that shortly ends when he claims to have achieved God-hood. Shortly followed by the great tribulation period.

2. Then, at the end of the 7 years is Armageddon - i.e. the world gathered to make war of Jesus, urged by the beast (i.e. the former Antichrist), the false prophet , and Satan.

3. The Revelation 19 events then take place - of Jesus's return to this earth - executing judgement on all who have gathered to make war on Him. The great tribulation period - over.

4. Then followed by Jesus's thousand year millennium reign on this present earth. Known as the messianic age.

5. Which ends with the final Satan lead rebellion of Revelation 20 to destroy Israel and Jerusalem. Which will include the former Gog/Magog nations of Satan's first attempt to destroy the end times nation of Israel, Jerusalem of Ezekiel 38-39.

6. Then, after God quickly puts down that final rebellion, is the destruction of this present earth and heaven above it.

7. Then the Great White Throne Judgement.

8. Then the New Heaven, the New Earth, and New Jerusalem. Eternity.

1.) Christ went to the Cross that marked the end of Old Testament Covenant, and confirmed a new covenant with the Church, Daniel 9:27 which started the covenant week - the whole New Testament period.

2.) Thus Christ went forth as a rider on the white horse to save people through the testimony of his Witnesses (Act 1:8, Rev 11:3)

3.) The 1,260 days are symbolic the whole church age as long as Two Witnesses' testimony for salvation.

4.) It is the SAME 1,260 days when the Woman (congregaiton of Israel, now representing the New Covenant church) went forth to the world (desert) to preach the gospel, safe from Satan's harm

5.) The 1,260 days are finished when Two Witnesses' testimony is finished, AFTER Christ has finished sealing his people through the testimony of His Witnesses.

6.) Satan (and his beast) then comes out of the Bottomless pit to deceive the nations. He will be able to take peace (salvation) from the world. This is when the red, black and pale horses comes. The rise of false prophets and christs in the church. This was also the start of the Gog and Magog war - a spiritual war that Satan marshaled the army of false prophets and christs to bring down the church. This is how the CHurch has become a harlot.

7.) The church has grown apostasy. Two Witnesses were killed after 1,260 days (symbolic period).
8.) Two Witnesses lying dead in the street. Not physical death. But it symbols the silence of Gospel Witnesses for salvation. The days of Salvation is over - for a short season. Anyone who seeks or has the desire to die in Christ will not find it, Revelation 9:4-6. Enemies rejoiced over the death of Two Witnesses because their gospel torments them. Now without Two Witnesses, they can exchange false doctrines in the church.

9.) 1,290 day (after 3-1/2 days of Two Witnesses lying in the city and resurrected by Spirit of Life) - the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (church) marks the beginning of God's judgment of the harlot.

10.) Thanks to Spirit of Life, the Two Witnesses now "see" the abomination of desolation, moved by God to flee from unfaithful congregation as He is judging her so they will not be part of the plagues. Two Witnesses will then stand afar off, mourning over the city (church) for who she once was.

11.) The one hour of judgment upon the unfaithful church began (between 1,290 and 1,335 day). This is what the signs in the sun, moon and stars refer to, so the Elect will know that Christ's coming is near!

12.) On 1,335 day and blessed day, Christ finally returns at the last trump on the last day. The "alive and remain" who still alive on Earth will be raptured to meet with Christ and the rest of the Saints in the air. The Judgment of the world begins.

13.) New Earth and New Heaven for Christ and His Saints forever.

See? No need to use the world reports for interpretation and don't worry about the nation Israel. The prophecy is all about the new testament congregation, God's salvation plan with Gentiles and Jews - theone that Christ confirmed a covenant with for the whole New TEstament period, which considers as the "last days" until Christ returns.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 - Satan's first attempt to destroy the end times Israel and Jerusalem, using those nations.

Gog/Magog of Revelation 20, a thousand years later - Satan's second attempt to destroy Israel and Jerusalem, using those same nations of his first attempt.

That is typical (and false) Premillennial doctrine. Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 and Revelation 20 are one and the same! It is a final Spiritual battle as Satan works through unsaved false prophets and Christs armed with all sorts and weapons that mimic the Christian's armour and weapons (Eph 6). God is bringing (put hook in their mouths) Satan and his armies into His congregation as a Judgment for her unfaithfulness. This is what Gog and Magog is all about. And the church is actually the New Testament representative of God's Kingdom on Earth - the very entity that Christ has confirmed a covenant with, Dan 9:27. Not your 1948 Israel! That is why your doctrine isn't correct because you got wrong person who confirmed a covenant, wrong Israel, wrong timing of millennial kingdom.

 

[DavidPT]

Rev 10:6-7
(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
(7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15
(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The 7th Trumpet "IS" the Last Trump. When Christ returns on the LAST DAY, at the LAST TRUMP, there will be NO MORE TIME AFTER THIS when the 7th Angel sound.

There will be no more time left for your so-called 7 years period and so-called 1,000 literal kingdom ruling from the Middle East. Once Christ returns, it's over. There will be judgment and eternity.

How do you propose we factor the following in assuming this is pertaining to the great white throne judgment, then assuming the last day is a literal 24 hour day or less?

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

This verse indicates that it is in the last day, not after the last day nor outside of the last day, but in the last day, the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him.

One is to believe that the great white throne judgment is going to start and be entirely finished within 24 literal hours or less? But if one insists that the great white throne judgment happens outside of time instead, while at the same time insisting the last day meant here, it is involving the great white throne judgment, that interpreter is then contradicting his or her interpretation of John 12:48, since that verse says---the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day---and not this instead---the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him outside of time. No way can the last day and outside of time mean the same thing. Because, clearly, in the realm of 'outside of time', there is no such thing as a last day.

 

[DavidPT]

That is typical (and false) Premillennial doctrine. Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 and Revelation 20 are one and the same! It is a final Spiritual battle as Satan works through unsaved false prophets and Christs armed with all sorts and weapons that mimic the Christian's armour and weapons (Eph 6). God is bringing (put hook in their mouths) Satan and his armies into His congregation as a Judgment for her unfaithfulness. This is what Gog and Magog is all about. And the church is actually the New Testament representative of God's Kingdom on Earth - the very entity that Christ has confirmed a covenant with, Dan 9:27. Not your 1948 Israel! That is why your doctrine isn't correct because you got wrong person who confirmed a covenant, wrong Israel, wrong timing of millennial kingdom.

Make sense of some of the following for us then.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel ; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more : and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

How is any of this applicable to Revelation 20:7-9?


Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years

Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

If Revelation 20:7-9 is involving Ezekiel 38-39, this would indicate that verse 9 and 12 above would be involving the aftermath. Which then means you now have to explain this 7 years and this 7 months, post that of Revelation 20:7-9.

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies : so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them .
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them : for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Except you obviously won't make any sense out of this for us, since you obviously can't to begin with, especially when you are already making Ezekiel 38-39 mean anything you want it to mean rather than what it actually means. You do realize that God is the speaker in all of those verses, right? Which should mean God should know what He is talking about, and that He wouldn't just be spewing a bunch of nonsense such as you have Him doing via how you are interpreting some or all of it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Because what you say above implies that Christ's destruction of the power of Satan will only last a thousand years (or x thousand years) but the devil will be able at the close of the thousand years (or x thousand years) to regain the power over death that Christ's death and resurrection caused him to lose.

Why is that a problem for you? We can all see in Revelation 20:7-9 (I believe 2 Thess 2:3-12 talks about that time as well) that he will be unrestrained for a short time at the end. Doesn't that imply that he would have all the power that he once had for that short time?

What is your understanding of 2 Thess 2:3-12 as it relates to what Satan is able to do during the time Paul describes? What is it that you think he's able to do during that time that he's not able to do before that time? Do you think that the mass falling away Paul described has anything to do with Satan having a greater influence during that time than before?

The devil's work was the death that came to all men through Adam's fall. Just because that in turn came about through the devil's deception does not mean that the devil was cast into the lake of fire when Christ died and rose again, nor does it mean that his permission to deceive the nations was taken away by God at that point.

Where did I say that the devil was already cast into the lake of fire? Did you mean the bottomless pit/abyss? It doesn't describe him as being cast into the lake of fire until after the thousand years and after his little season. We all (or mostly all, at least) believe that.

And, again, you see his binding as being a case of him having his permission to deceive in general taken away and, obviously, that is not how Amils see it.

Christ's destruction of the devil's power will last forever and ever, not only for a millennium and then be reversed for a brief period at the close of that same millennium.

What do you make of this passage then:

2 Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

What is your understanding of the timing of what Paul described here? Do you not relate it directly to the timing of the future mass falling away he references earlier in the chapter?

To deduce that the destruction of the devil's works i.e his power over death = God taking away his ability to deceive the nations or binding him in that way, is a logical fallacy, in my opinion.

And, of course, I completely disagree with that. One difference in our views is that I believe there is other scripture relating to the binding of Satan just like there is other scripture relating to other things in Revelation 20 such as Christ's reign, the resurrection of the dead and the judgment. But, you believe that Revelation 20 is the only place in all of scripture that references Satan's binding. I'm not saying this proves anything one way or another, but it's interesting.

There are a few things that should be taken note of as far as the differences between Revelation 19 and 20 are concerned.

The first being that it's not only Satan's binding being linked to the mention of a thousand years. It's also those who had been seen by John living and reigning with Christ a thousand years - the souls of those who had (already) been beheaded .. and the fact that IF the word zao (alive) used in Revelation 20:4 does not refer to people living in their bodies, then it's the only verse in the entire New Testament where that word is used:

I do not see this is a strong argument at all. We know that believers are alive spiritually even after physical death, so there is no reason whatsoever to assume that the word zao can only refer to those who are alive physically/bodily.

God created a body for Adam. He isn't just a soul.

Right now it's just his soul that is in heaven, so, again, I'm not finding your argument here to be compelling.

Then there is the fact that these souls who had been beheaded for not worshiping the beast and are seen living (zao) is also linked in Revelation 20:5-6 to the anastasis (resurrection). Another interesting word, because unless Revelation 20:5-6 is the only exception, not once in the New Testament is the word anastais not referring to the bodily resurrection:

Without fail, each and every time anástasis is used in the New Testament, it's referring to (the) bodily resurrection from the dead, which is an integral part of the gospel:-

|| Matthew 22:23, 28 & 30-31; Mark 12:18 & 23; Luke 2:34; Luke 14:14; Luke 20:27, 33, 35-36; John 5:29; John 11:24-25; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:31; Acts 4:2; Acts 4:33; Acts 17:18, 32; Acts 23:6, 8; Acts 24:15, 21; Acts 26:23; Romans 1:4; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:12-13, 21, 42; Philippians 3:10; II Timothy 2:18; Hebrews 6:2; Hebrews 11:35; I Peter 1:3; I Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

All of the following verses below use one or more of the following words, and all are speaking about the bodily resurrection from the dead:-

égersis; anístēmi; egeírō:

|| Matthew 9:25; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:32; Matthew 27:52-53 & 63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 6:14 & 16; Mark 12:26; Mark 14:28; Mark 16:6 & 14; Luke 7:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:7 & 22; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 5:28-29; John 6:39, 40 & 44; John 11:23-35; John 12:1, 9 & 17; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24, 31-32; Acts 3:15 & 26; Acts 4:1-2, 10 & 33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30 & 33-37; Acts 17:18 & 31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15 & 21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:4, 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8 & 18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18 & 21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

Unless Revelation 20:5-6 is the only exception, not one New Testament verse employing any of the above listed words associated with The Resurrection (ansastis) is not talking about the bodily resurrection. Not one.

I have addressed this with you SEVERAL TIMES in the past and here you are still saying this to me. I have said many times (including several times directly to you) that I believe the first resurrection itself is Christ's bodily resurrection. Believers have part in His resurrection (the first resurrection) spiritually when we are spiritually saved. Here is the only other verse in all of scripture where the Greek words protos and anastasis are used together:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

God created a body for Adam. He isn't just a soul.

He is right now. And his soul lives and reigns with Christ in heaven with all other believers right now.

So the combination of the words zao (alive in a body) and anastasis (bodily resurrection from the dead) in Revelation 20:4-6 - the passage referring to those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and their refusal to worship the beast or his image, and the fact that they are said to reign with Christ a thousand years, can (in my opinion) only be referring to a "spiritual" resurrection (at the time of the new birth of the Spirit) by forcing that interpretation into the text of Revelation 20:4-6, despite the actual biblical meanings of the words zao and anasatsis.

PS: I like you a lot, because you always force me to go do the above kind of research by the arguments you put forward. I don't get that kind of research from a book.

I appreciate your efforts to use scripture to interpret scripture because so many people don't do that. But, I think there are still some things that you haven't considered, which I am trying to point out in this post.

So because Satan was completely defeated and his power over death and his works were completely destroyed forever and ever and will not be reversed for Satan's "little season" before the return of Christ,

Again, this makes me wonder how you interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 which talks about wickedness going from being restrained to unrestrained for some time in the future with verse 9 indicating that Satan will have something to do with that. Yes, Satan's fate was sealed forever long ago already, but he will still be allowed an unrestrained "little season" in the future before he is finally cast into the lake of fire forever.

and because the New Testament talks about the activities of Satan throughout Revelation Chapters 12 and 13,

and because of all the verses telling of Satan being the god of this world and prince of the power of the air who has the ability to blind the minds of unbelievers is mentioned a number of times in the New Testament, without a peep about him being bound in terms of his ability to deceive the nations being mentioned until or before Revelation 20:1-3,

Again, our understanding of what it means for him to be bound is very different, so you naturally are going to draw certain conclusions based on your understanding of what his binding entails. In your view his binding completely incapacitates him, but not mine.

were it the case (as you imply) that Revelation 20 is a repeat of what is said about the end of the beast before Revelation 20, then the first part of Revelation 20 does not fit with the latter part

I don't understand what you were intending to say here. Can you explain? In my view, the binding of Satan coincides with the binding of the beast, so when it talks in Revelation 17:8 about the beast ascending from the bottomless pit/abyss at some point, I believe that coincides with Satan being loosed.

, and also, why the destruction of Satan in the lake of fire is not mentioned in Revelation 19 also beggars the question of why this would be so, were Revelation 20 merely repeating and giving more information about the things that are written before it.

Why would it need to be mentioned there? Do you believe that the battle of Armageddon described in Revelation 16 is the same battle described in Revelation 19? If so, then should we ask why Armageddon is not specifically mentioned in Revelation 19 if they are referring to the same battle? I would say no, we don't need to ask that because we shouldn't expect every passage that relates to an event to all contain the same details about that event.

But it also depends on when you believe the beast of Revelation 13 and the beast ascending from the abyss in Revelation 17 will appear - because this is the beast whose false prophet will cause all who will not worship said beast, to be killed.

I believe said beast will only ascend from the abyss at the close of the Age, i.e in the final 3.5 years or 42 months or 1,260 days, or whatever. If I'm not mistaken you have a very different view of the beast that will be destroyed along with the false prophet in the lake of fire.

As I already mentioned earlier, I believe the ascension of the beast from the abyss coincides with the ascension of Satan from the abyss. But, I do not see the beast as being completely incapacitated while in the abyss (just like Satan) as you do. I see it as being a restraint instead.

 

[Andrewn]

Jesus turned their understanding of prophecy on its head - and they were His apostles. I believe He will do the same with us when He returns. So it makes no difference who is right or wrong about the millennium.

I understand this. We cannot predict the future. In the following, I recapitulate my understanding of your position. Please correct me if my understanding is inaccurate.

Unlike anyone else, I believe that just as Adam was permitted to eat freely of the tree of life and knew exactly what God had said, and knew exactly what the words "you will not surely die" implied about God yet chose to sin anyway once God allowed Satan to deceive mankind in the garden, so it will be at the close of the (literal) millennium.

You believe that, with the exception of martyrs, the saints need to be tested again. Besides their testing in this mortal life, they will be resurrected on the Last Day, live in the presence of Christ for 1000 years, and then be tested with the unbinding of Satan.

If Adam was tested and failed and the martyred saints were tested and overcame then the sons of Adam who have never been tested as they were and as Adam was, will be tested too. I do not believe in OSAS for anyone except those who remained faithful to the end:

You believe that the martyrs will be resurrected and given thrones and the authority to judge. And that the rest of the saints will also share in this first resurrection but, contrary to Rev 20:6, they may fall and suffer the second death at the end of the Millennium.

And when a thousand years has once again passed in the garden of Eden new heavens and new earth, one more time the last of these unfaithful sons of Adam who had already been resurrected will join up as the Gog-Magog forces at the close of the millennium, after Satan is released one last time again into the garden of Eden new heavens new earth to deceive mankind lone last time, and the remainder of the sons of Adam who had been resurrected but had never been tested the way the martyred saints were and the way Adam was, is tested. @Andrewn Maybe the final separation will come a thousand years later than we expected, and to a group of people we did not expect (resurrected saints).

You believe the unfaithful will be resurrected at the end of the Millennium to join Satan and wage war on the saints who are being tested. Then they will end up in the LOF w/ Satan and the fallen saints.

Christ's destruction of the devil's power will last forever and ever, not only for a millennium and then be reversed for a brief period at the close of that same millennium.

Here you contradict yourself. In your scenario, Satan will be released at end of the Millennium to test the saints.

 

[DavidPT]

Why is that a problem for you? We can all see in Revelation 20:7-9 (I believe 2 Thess 2:3-12 talks about that time as well) that he will be unrestrained for a short time at the end. Doesn't that imply that he would have all the power that he once had for that short time?

Speaking for myself, the fact we also need to factor in Ezekiel 38-39 here since that too involves Gog and Magog, as does Revelation 20:7-9, the following below is what I pointed out to @TribulationSigns in an earlier post.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years

Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

If Revelation 20:7-9 is involving Ezekiel 38-39, this would indicate that verse 9 and 12 above would be involving the aftermath. Which then means you now have to explain this 7 years and this 7 months, post that of Revelation 20:7-9.

Like I pointed out to @TribulationSigns, If Ezekiel 39-39 and Revelation 20:7-9 are involving the same events, this would obviously mean that
Ezekiel 39:9 and Ezekiel 39:12 would be involving it's aftermath. Which then means one now has to explain this 7 years, this 7 months, post that of the end of satan's little season. At the end of satan's little season it is the great white throne judgment that fits after that, not 7 years, not 7 months, involving an aftermath. That alone is a very good reason to not conflate Ezekiel 38-39 with that of Revelation 20:7-9.

Which means we have a number of options to consider regarding Ezekiel 39:9 and Ezekiel 39:12.

Option 1. It is not involving a literal 7 years nor a literal 7 months. It is not involving anyone literally burying anyone, meaning in regards to this 7 months.

Option 2. It is involving a literal 7 years and a literal 7 months. And that in regards to this 7 months, it literally involves burying the remains of Gog and his multitude once the feasting birds have consumed all of their flesh.

Which then leads to a cpl of more options if option 2 is a correct option.

Option 3. In regards to option 2, this literal 7 years, this literal 7 months, this is meaning in this age before Christ has returned.

Option 4. In regards to option 2, this literal 7 years, this literal 7 months, this is meaning in the beginning of the next age after Christ has returned.

Obviously, if it is option 4 not option 3 that appears to be correct, this requires a time period after Christ has returned, which precedes the great white throne judgment. Which then means Revelation 20:7-9 can't fit the time of the 2nd coming. More on that below.

Something else we have to factor in here, Ezekiel 39:17-20 vs Revelation 19:17-21. Both accounts involve a leader of armies and his multitude. Both accounts involve men of war being gotten rid of, thus becoming bird food. Which, BTW, might explain Isaiah 2:4 and them learning war no more. To me it makes better sense that they are learning war no more when there is no longer men of war teaching them any of this.

But then we have to factor in Revelation 20:7-9 yet again since that is involving a battle. The question is, a battle that is fought with modern weaponry, though? Obviously not. Yet, how can in the 21st century, there be no wars that are involving modern weaponry? Therefore, something has to put an end to that but it can't be Revelation 20:7-9 if that is not even involving battling with modern weaponry. Therefore, prior to when Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning, wars being fought with modern weaponry have already been taken out of the equation altogether since modern weaponry no longer exists at this point, otherwise Revelation 20:7-9 would be involving a battle that is being fought using modern weaponry upon one's enemies if Revelation 20:7-9 is involving the end of this age in the 21st century.

 

[Zao is life]

What do you make of this passage then:

2 Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

What is your understanding of the timing of what Paul described here? Do you not relate it directly to the timing of the future mass falling away he references earlier in the chapter?

Again, this makes me wonder how you interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 which talks about wickedness going from being restrained to unrestrained for some time in the future with verse 9 indicating that Satan will have something to do with that. Yes, Satan's fate was sealed forever long ago already, but he will still be allowed an unrestrained "little season" in the future before he is finally cast into the lake of fire forever.

We are not told who is restraining the lawlessness among Christians, but God Himself would seem to be the only answer - but that is besides the point.

The point is I don't believe that the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 or the rest of the passage means that Satan goes from being bound to Satan being unbound - because he was never bound. Christians are not puppets on a string who need to wait for Satan to ostensibly "be unbound" so that the required strings can be pulled by Satan. Satan did not go from being bound to being unbound when he entered Judas Iscariot, the first of the two men called the son of perdition in the New Testament.

I also don't agree with you that Revelation 20:4-6 is is referring to people being raised with (syneigero) Christ's resurrection following their having been beheaded for the testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast, because if they were testifying to Christ and for the Word of God and had refused to worship the beast and were beheaded for it, then they would have already been raised with (syneigiro) Christ's resurrection before this occurred, since they were members of His body.

And yes - IMO Revelation 20 is the first and only passage that states that Satan had been bound so that he is unable to deceive the nations. All other references to Satan's activities in the New Testament are talking about him deceiving the unbelievers, blinding their minds so that they cannot receive the gospel etc, calling him the god of this Age and the prince of the power of the air etc, or about him going to war against the saints.

And I still see a huge difference between Satan's works i.e his power over death being crushed forever and ever by the once-for-all death and resurrection of Christ on one hand, and his ability to deceive the nations (with God allowing it to continue until Christ returns) on the other hand. I really don't understand how you can so easily conflate the two.

But these are the reasons why I will never be an Amillennialist, because I see ignoring these facts as forcing an Amil interpretation of scripture. You disagree. So we remain in disagreement about it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Speaking for myself, the fact we also need to factor in Ezekiel 38-39 here since that too involves Gog and Magog, as does Revelation 20:7-9, the following below is what I pointed out to @TribulationSigns in an earlier post.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years

Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

If Revelation 20:7-9 is involving Ezekiel 38-39, this would indicate that verse 9 and 12 above would be involving the aftermath. Which then means you now have to explain this 7 years and this 7 months, post that of Revelation 20:7-9.

Like I pointed out to @TribulationSigns, If Ezekiel 39-39 and Revelation 20:7-9 are involving the same events, this would obviously mean that
Ezekiel 39:9 and Ezekiel 39:12 would be involving it's aftermath. Which then means one now how to explain this 7 years, this 7 months, post that of the end of satan's little season. At the end of satan's little season it is the great white throne judgment that fits after that, not 7 years, not 7 months, involving an aftermath. That alone is a very good reason to not conflate Ezekiel 38-39 with that of Revelation 20:7-9.

Which means we have a number of options to consider regarding Ezekiel 39:9 and Ezekiel 39:12.

Option 1. It is not involving a literal 7 years nor a literal 7 months. It is not involving anyone literally burying anyone, meaning in regards to this 7 months.

Option 2. It is involving a literal 7 years and a literal 7 months. And that in regards to this 7 months, it literally involves burying the remains of Gog and his multitude once the feasting birds have consumed all of their flesh.

Which then leads to a cpl of more options if option 2 is a correct option.

Option 3. In regards to option 2, this literal 7 years, this literal 7 months, this is meaning in this age before Christ has returned.

Option 4. In regards to option 2, this literal 7 years, this literal 7 months, this is meaning in the beginning of the next age after Christ has returned.

Obviously, if it is option 4 not option 3 that appears to be correct, this requires a time period after Christ has returned, which precedes the great white throne judgment. Which then means Revelation 20:7-9 can't fit the time of the 2nd coming. More on that below.

Something else we have to factor in here, Ezekiel 39:17-20 vs Revelation 19:17-21. Both accounts involve a leader of armies and his multitude. Both accounts involve men of war being gotten rid of, thus becoming bird food. Which, BTW, might explain Isaiah 2:4 and them learning war no more. To me it makes better sense that they are learning war no more when there is no longer men of war teaching them any of this.

But then we have to factor in Revelation 20:7-9 yet again since that is involving a battle. The question is, a battle that is fought with modern weaponry, though? Obviously not. Yet, how can in the 21st century, there be no wars be involving modern weaponry? Therefore, something has to put an end to that but it can't be Revelation 20:7-9 if that is not even involving battling with modern weaponry. Therefore, prior to when Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning, wars being fought with modern weaponry have already been taken out of the equation altogether since modern weaponry no longer exists at this point, otherwise Revelation 20:7-9 would be involving a battle that is being fought using modern weaponry upon one's enemies if Revelation 20:7-9 is involving the end of this age in the 21st century.

David, I don't know how many times I've told you that the New Testament sheds light on the Old Testament prophecies. I don't believe we need to get bogged down with trying to figure Ezekiel 39 out.

We have all the info we need in the New Testament where the NT authors shed light on the Old Testament prophecies. I don't see any way to reconcile a literal, futuristic interpretation of Ezekiel 38-39 with what is taught in the New Testament. In my view, the New Testament very clearly teaches that Christ will destroy all unbelievers and even the heavens and the earth when He returns and He will put an end to all wickedness at that point.

So, to me, interpreting Ezekiel 39 in a literal, futuristic way contradicts what is taught in the New Testament. Unlike you, I don't feel the need to have Ezekiel 39 explained before I can draw conclusions about what is going to happen. The New Testament gives us the answers we need without having to rack our brains trying to figure passages like Ezekiel 39 out.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We are not told who is restraining the lawlessness among Christians, but God Himself would seem to be the only answer - but that is besides the point.

That has nothing to do with the point I'm making, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to say this.

The point is I don't believe that the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 or the rest of the passage means that Satan goes from being bound to Satan being unbound - because he was never bound.

Do you believe that Satan is restrained before the time of the mass falling away, etc. that Paul wrote about? Do you agree that this time of a mass falling away occurs just before the return of Christ? According to Paul in 2 Thess 2:9, what happens during that time is "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders", etc.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So, how do you interpret this? Does this not mean that before this time of the coming of "that wicked" (man of sin/lawlessness), Satan's activities are restrained to some extent and then they become unrestrained when the coming of "that wicked" (man of sin) occurs "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"?

Christians are not puppets on a string who need to wait for Satan to ostensibly "be unbound" so that the required strings can be pulled by Satan. Satan did not go from being bound to being unbound when he entered Judas Iscariot, the first of the two men called the son of perdition in the New Testament.

I don't think you're seeing the point I'm trying to make. So, let me just ask you this. Do you believe that Satan's power was restrained at all after the death of Christ? I mean, Hebrews 2:14-15 very clearly indicates that the power of death was taken away from him at that point, right? Why can his binding not have anything to do with that? I know you don't think it does, but I have not seen you give any convincing reason why not other than that you take the word "deceive" in Revelation 20 very literally to be talking about Satan's ability to deceive in general.

I also don't agree with you that Revelation 20:4-6 is is referring to people being raised with (syneigero) Christ's resurrection following their having been beheaded for the testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast, because if they were testifying to Christ and for the Word of God and had refused to worship the beast and were beheaded for it, then they would have already been raised with (syneigiro) Christ's resurrection before this occurred, since they were members of His body.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Feel free to explain further if you want. Or not. Up to you.

And yes - IMO Revelation 20 is the first and only passage that states that Satan had been bound so that he is unable to deceive the nations.

Yes, it was quite clear that you believe that.

But, do you also believe it is the only passage that talks about Christ's reign with His followers who are considered priests? Clearly, it's not, right? Just look at Revelation 1:5-6, for example. And there's 1 Peter 2:9 which talks about His followers as being "a royal priesthood".

Do you believe it's the only passage in scripture that talks about the resurrection of the dead? Clearly not, right?

Do you believe it's the only passage in scripture that talks about the judgment of unbelievers? Clearly not, right?

Yet, despite all that, somehow it's the only passage in scripture that refers to the binding of Satan? Why would there be other scripture about all those other things referenced in Revelation 20, but nothing about Satan's binding?

All other references to Satan's activities in the New Testament are talking about him deceiving the unbelievers, blinding their minds so that they cannot receive the gospel etc, calling him the god of this Age and the prince of the power of the air etc, or about him going to war against the saints.

"All other references"? Really? No, that is not true. See, you clearly have the mindset like a Premil even though you are uncommitted to any one view.

Does Hebrews 2:14-15 talk about him deceiving unbelievers and blinding people, etc. during this age? No, it talks about people being set free from his power. Does 1 John 3:8 talk about him deceiving people, etc.? No, it talks about Jesus destroying his works. Does Acts 26:18 talk about Satan deceiving people in this age? No, it talks about people being turned "from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God". You somehow forgot all these passages and more? Why? Even though you are not a Premil, it seems that you look at everything with a Premil bias.

And I still see a huge difference between Satan's works i.e his power over death being crushed forever and ever by the once-for-all death and resurrection of Christ on one hand, and his ability to deceive the nations (with God allowing it to continue until Christ returns) on the other hand. I really don't understand how you can so easily conflate the two.

You can't understand it because you insist that the reference to deceiving the ethnos ("nations" is the wrong translation - they number "as the sand of the sea" - it's talking about individual unbelievers) is a reference to Satan's ability to deceive in general. As long as you continue to do that then, of course, you are not going to see it the way we Amils do.

But these are the reasons why I will never be an Amillennialist, because I see ignoring these facts as forcing an Amil interpretation of scripture. You disagree. So we remain in disagreement about it.

And we always will, apparently, since you are indicating here that your mind is made up to never be an Amillennialist.

 

[Zao is life]

You believe that the martyrs will be resurrected and given thrones and the authority to judge. And that the rest of the saints will also share in this first resurrection but, contrary to Rev 20:6, they may fall and suffer the second death at the end of the Millennium.

No. It's not contrary to Revelation 20:4-6 because Revelation 20:4-6 is only talking about the martyrs. It's not talking about all the other saints who had ever died in Christ without having been martyred and also had part in the first resurrection. There's no mention of them in Revelation 20:4-6, though we know from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and many other scriptures that there will be many who will also have part in the first resurrection.

But Revelation 20:4-6 is talking only about the martyred saints when it promises that the 2nd death will have no power over them.

Here you contradict yourself. In your scenario, Satan will be released at end of the Millennium to test the saints.

No contradiction at all. If certain saints are capable of falling away before the return of Christ and before the resurrection, then they will not be part of the first resurrection.

And if certain saints are capable of falling away before the return of Christ and before the resurrection, then there will be others who even after their resurrection will be capable of falling away at the close of the millennium.

Being resurrected is not a magic preventative measure - otherwise even while he was still living forever and eating of the tree of life, Adam would not have fallen.

Again, Revelation 20:4-6 is only talking about the martyrs. It's not talking about all the other saints who had ever died in Christ without having been martyred and also had part in the first resurrection. There's no mention of them in Revelation 20:4-6, though we know from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and many other scriptures that there will be many who will also have part in the first resurrection.

You believe the unfaithful will be resurrected at the end of the Millennium to join Satan and wage war on the saints who are being tested. Then they will end up in the LOF w/ Satan and the fallen saints.

No. No resurrection at the end of the millennium. The words "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." are listed as spurious by Tischendorf's Spurious Passages of the Greek New Testament because they do not appear in the Bible’s oldest Greek manuscript of the Revelation, the Codex Sinaiticus. Nor are they found in the oldest Aramaic manuscript, the Khabouris Codex, and only appear as notes in the margins of some other manuscripts (this is mentioned merely as a statement of fact, it's not a statement about whether or not the sentence should be there).

I do not believe in two resurrections with one being at the beginning of the millennium and the other at the close of it.

At the close of the millennium once Satan has been unbound, that is when the faithful sheep will once again and for the last time be separated from those who will turn/fall away at that point - in much the same way as before the return of Christ there will be a falling away (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3). And in the same way that Adam fell away when he was living forever in the garden of Eden.

 

[Zao is life]

Do you believe that Satan is restrained before the time of the mass falling away, etc. that Paul wrote about?

No more and no less restrained than he has ever been. It's you who believes he has been restrained "because he is bound".

@Spiritual Jew The truth is he has always been restrained by God. And he has been no more restrained since the death and resurrection of Christ than he ever was. His power over death (his works) was utterly defeated by Christ's death and resurrection - forever. Nothing more. @Spiritual Jew Again, you are conflating Satan's power over death with his being bound. I do not conflate the two.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Doug. Im a Gentile who frequents a Messianic website where the Jews do respect both old and new Testaments.

The Olam Haba or world to come I speak of is the new heavens and new earth that Isaiah spoke of in Isaiah 65:17-20. This new world is also where our Lord and his twelve apostles will reign, Matthew 19:28, until the end of that age.

In this present evil age, Satan and his angels reign in the heavenly places Eph 6:12, Eph 2:2

The war in heaven, Rev 12:7-10, will usurp Satan's reign in these heavenly places, . Then the authority to reign there in the heavenly places will pass on to Christ and his saints who will reign there for the thousand year Millennium Rev 20:4

This will bring the Kingdom of God first into heaven, then later God's Kingdom will be extended down onto the earth.

Bob..

Hi Bob, I want to make sure that the tone of my post comes across to be nothing but friendly, although we may disagree.

Messianic's identify themselves as Jews who are Christians - but want to hang onto their Jewish identity of being part of Israel - so they refer to themselves as Messianic's (Jews, being implied) who hold to their belief that Jesus is the messiah.

There will be a new heaven and new earth, but not until after the messianic age and the Great White Throne Judgement. During the messianic age is when lifespans will be lengthened and the preying nature of the predator animals will no longer exist - at least in the Jerusalem area.

In this present age - the age when man lives without God's direct visible presence here on earth as the Lord - Satan's kingdom is spiritual (called Mystery Babylon the Great) and he and his angels occupy the second heaven (the cosmos) and earth (including the first heaven, earth's atmosphere). They are not allowed in the third heaven - unless summoned to appear before God.

The Revelation 12:7-9 event will be in the middle part of the 7 years, when the 7th trumpet sounds. Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth - from the second heaven - as God begins dismantling Satan's spiritual kingdom. In Revelation 18, Babylon is fallen, is fallen is talking about Satan and his angels cast down to earth. And the rest of the chapter continues the sudden demise with an analogy of a great trading city, rich, and powerful, but having gotten so immorally, coming to its end.

Jesus has already come into his kingdom, when he ascended to heaven, and was given the kingdom of heaven in Daniel 7:13-14. When Jesus returns to this earth, he will bring with him the kingdom of heaven - to become the Kingdom of God here on this earth. Part of the prayer that we say as taught by Jesus, i.e. the Lord's prayer - Your Kingdom come, Your Will be done on earth as it is in heaven - looking forward to that day. Matthew 6:9-13.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No more and no less restrained than he has ever been. It's you who believes he has been restrained "because he is bound".

So, you don't think him having the power of death taken away from him (Heb 2:14-15) resulted in him being restrained at all? Do you think the huge increase in the number of people being saved in New Testament times compared to Old Testament times had nothing to do with the impact the gospel of Christ has had on Satan in the world?

@Spiritual Jew The truth is he has always been restrained by God. And he has been no more restrained since the death and resurrection of Christ than he ever was.

This really saddens me to see someone say something like this. I could not possibly disagree more. I feel that you have no understanding whatsoever of what passages like Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8 and Acts 26:15-18 mean. The death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent preaching of the gospel of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit has had a TREMENDOUS impact on Satan and you basically say nothing changed in relation to Satan since then. I just find that to be unbelievable.

His power over death (his works) was utterly defeated by Christ's death and resurrection - forever.

So, how is it possible for Satan's little season to ever happen in that case? I don't see how it would be possible if what you were saying here was true. I really don't think you're thinking this all through carefully enough.

Nothing more. @Spiritual Jew Again, you are conflating Satan's power over death with his being bound. I do not conflate the two.

No, I am not. I'm recognizing that his binding is not only referenced in one place in all of scripture just like the other things referenced in Revelation 20 are not only referenced there (Christ's reign, His followers being made priests, the resurrection of the dead and the judgment).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No. It's not contrary to Revelation 20:4-6 because Revelation 20:4-6 is only talking about the martyrs. It's not talking about all the other saints who had ever died in Christ without having been martyred and also had part in the first resurrection. There's no mention of them in Revelation 20:4-6, though we know from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and many other scriptures that there will be many who will also have part in the first resurrection.

But Revelation 20:4-6 is talking only about the martyred saints when it promises that the 2nd death will have no power over them.

The second death doesn't have power over any saint/believer. You don't have to be martyred in order for the second death to not have power over you. The second death is being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). Obviously, no believer, martyred or not, will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[TribulationSigns]

How do you propose we factor the following in assuming this is pertaining to the great white throne judgment, then assuming the last day is a literal 24 hour day or less?

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

This verse indicates that it is in the last day, not after the last day nor outside of the last day, but in the last day, the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him.

One is to believe that the great white throne judgment is going to start and be entirely finished within 24 literal hours or less? But if one insists that the great white throne judgment happens outside of time instead, while at the same time insisting the last day meant here, it is involving the great white throne judgment, that interpreter is then contradicting his or her interpretation of John 12:48, since that verse says---the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day---and not this instead---the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him outside of time. No way can the last day and outside of time mean the same thing. Because, clearly, in the realm of 'outside of time', there is no such thing as a last day.

You are wasting too much time on whether the last day should be literal 24 hours, shorter, or longer as long as you are trying to play with numbers to fit your flawed doctrine.

Really, it does not matter. When the last trump sounds and Christ appears in the air, the "day" will be no longer 24 hours. There will be no time longer. Done! There will be judgment (not controlled by time) and all the former things we know on Earth, including TIME, will be gone.