A Catholic thought about the doctrine of Predestination.

[bbbbbbb]

That is a misreading of the passage.

In all things, present yourself as an example of good works: in doctrine, with integrity, with seriousness, with sound words, irreproachably, so that he who is an opponent may dread that he has nothing evil to say about us. Exhort servants to be submissive to their masters, in all things pleasing, not contradicting, not cheating, but in all things showing good fidelity, so that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. For the grace of God our Saviour has appeared to all men, instructing us to reject impiety and worldly desires, so that we may live soberly and justly and piously in this age, looking forward to the blessed hope and the advent of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ. He gave himself for our sake, so that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and might cleanse for himself an acceptable people, pursuers of good works. Speak and exhort and argue these things with all authority. Let no one despise you. ​

Titus 2:7-15
to bring salvation to all is not the same thing as to save all. One can have salvation brought before you and yet not accept it.

Is God unwilling to save every person to whom He has revealed His grace or is God incapable of saving sinners?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Is God unwilling to save every person to whom He has revealed His grace or is God incapable of saving sinners?

God does will that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to arrive at an acknowledgment of the truth.​

1 Timothy 2:3-4
I do not care to speculate on what God is able to do.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God does will that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to arrive at an acknowledgment of the truth.​

1 Timothy 2:3-4
I do not care to speculate on what God is able to do.

Apparently God must be incapable of actually performing His own will.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Apparently God must be incapable of actually performing His own will.

If that is what appears to you then you need to change your perspective.

 

[Hawkins]

Now we encounter the Universalist conundrum. If, indeed, "the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all." is every individual who has ever lived and will ever live on planet Earth saved? If not, why not?

Because God follows set standard to do things. In terms of mathematics (statistics and probabilities), human behavior resembles a bell shape normal distribution. Law is a standard more or less like a cut on the distribution. "Wish all are saved" represents a possibility of the distribution, while "saved through the narrow gate" is a mathematical expected outcome of a distribution.

If you understand the math, you will understand what is said. Not only it's logical, but also mathematical in a sense.

 

[Clare73]

God does will that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to arrive at an acknowledgment of the truth.​

1 Timothy 2:3-4
I do not care to speculate on what God is able to do.

Nor do I have to, for Scripture likewise presents God as choosing only some and not all (1 Pe 1:2).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Nor do I have to, for Scripture likewise presents God as choosing only some and not all (1 Pe 1:2).

1 Peter 1:2 does not say anything about God choosing only some.

 

[Clare73]

1 Peter 1:2 does not say anything about God choosing only some.

What Bible do you use?

Was Peter addressing a particular group of people (believers) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithyni, or was he addressing all people in his letter, as chosen by God for salvation (i.e., sprinkling by the blood, obedience and sanctification)?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What Bible do you use?

A Catholic one.

 

[Clare73]

A Catholic one.

That was a silly question, wasn't it?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That was a silly question, wasn't it?

Insufficient precision, perhaps.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because God follows set standard to do things. In terms of mathematics (statistics and probabilities), human behavior resembles a bell shape normal distribution. Law is a standard more or less like a cut on the distribution. "Wish all are saved" represents a possibility of the distribution, while "saved through the narrow gate" is a mathematical expected outcome of a distribution.

If you understand the math, you will understand what is said. Not only it's logical, but also mathematical in a sense.

You seem to think that God leaves some things up to chance. Does your math show how causation via chance is not self-contradictory?

 

[John Mullally]

God's choice of and purpose for his Elect is anything but random.

God's choice is to save all humanity per 1 Timothy 2:4,

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

​

Similarly, 1st Timothy 4:10 states: “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.” Notice that the term “all men” at 1st Timothy 4:10 means more than just believers, and also notice that the same term also appears at 1st Timothy 2:4. It is simply unreasonable to think that the term “all men” means one thing at 1st Timothy 2:4 and then a completely different thing at 1st Timothy 4:10. Consistency demands that the term “all men” be understood the same. Ultimately, prayers are encouraged indiscriminately for our political leaders, even the bad ones, so that (a) we can live peaceful lives, and (b) since God desires for even them to become saved, as a factor of God desiring “all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

That doesn’t mean that all men are going to be saved, but it means that God makes their salvation possible through the death of Jesus. Jesus died for all men (1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2). He wants all to be saved m(1 TImothy 2:4). He gave him Himself a ransom for all. However, the Gospel is the power of God for salvation to all who believe (Romans 1:16). Only those who believe the Gospel are saved.

Calvinism is the notion that God has secretly, already sorted and ordered humanity from eternity past, having selected certain future, unborn humans that He wished to save, and discarded the rest to eternal torment. The opposing view is the following: (a) God desires all to come to Him, and (b) the sorting and ordering of humanity is not yet complete, and (c) the sorting and ordering is done by His creatures—just like with the angels.

 

[QvQ]

Yes, all grace is resistible in Catholic teaching. God ultimately refuses to make the choice for us, while drawing and aiding us in every way to make the right choice. We can never say "yes" without grace, apart from Him- but we can still always say "no".

Amazing Grace, I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see
A person, to accept Christ, to say Yes, must have some conviction of the truth of Christ and the fact of God. That, by the Grace of God, is what Grace means...to have found the truth and to see the reality of God.
Therefore, it doesn't make a bit of sense to say that a person who has been found and can see can say NO because the very nature of Grace is Yes.
The only way a person can say no is if the person is lost and blind, unregenerate.
That is why Grace is irresistible is because by the time a person realizes yes or no, the answer is yes.
Kinda like getting tossed in a pond, then having someone ask, "Do you want to be wet, yes or no?" Do you have a choice?
A person who is in a state of Grace is a Yes. A person who is not in a state of Grace is a No.

 

[fhansen]

Amazing Grace, I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see
A person, to accept Christ, to say Yes, must have some conviction of the truth of Christ and the fact of God. That, by the Grace of God, is what Grace means...to have found the truth and to see the reality of God.
Therefore, it doesn't make a bit of sense to say that a person who has been found and can see can say NO because the very nature of Grace is Yes.
The only way a person can say no is if the person is lost and blind, unregenerate.
That is why Grace is irresistible is because by the time a person realizes yes or no, the answer is yes.
Kinda like getting tossed in a pond, then having someone ask, "Do you want to be wet, yes or no?" Do you have a choice?
A person who is in a state of Grace is a Yes. A person who is not in a state of Grace is a No.

Grace, that is to say, God, never forces anyone into heaven. So grace, just like the Cross which is an act and gift of grace, draws us to it without outright causing us to bow to it. That would go against everything God has done in and for man since Eden. We're not forced to believe, IOW, let alone to hope, or, most importantly, to love even though He first loves us. God wants all to come to repentance, and provides the means for that to happen, but not all come, or remain after entering fellowship with Him. Ultimately, love is the bond that keeps us united with God and ensures obedience of Him. And love, necessarily, is both a gift of grace-and a human choice.

 

[sawdust]

The doctrine of predestination holds that God has chosen certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world.

Technically that's not the correct understanding of predestination although, I admit, many seem to teach it that way.

Predestination is God choosing what to do with believers through the ages. ie. Adam in the Garden, Noah in the ark, Israel in the land, the Church in Christ.

It's based on His foreknowledge (1Pet.1:2) and whenever the scripture speaks of God "knowing us" it refers to being in a relationship hence, God's foreknowledge is God seeing Himself in a relationship with the people He predestines. Therefore they are already saved (in God's mind) before He chooses what to do with them.

 

[fhansen]

Technically that's not the correct understanding of predestination although, I admit, many seem to teach it that way.

Predestination is God choosing what to do with believers through the ages. ie. Adam in the Garden, Noah in the ark, Israel in the land, the Church in Christ.

It's based on His foreknowledge (1Pet.1:2) and whenever the scripture speaks of God "knowing us" it refers to being in a relationship hence, God's foreknowledge is God seeing Himself in a relationship with the people He predestines. Therefore they are already saved (in God's mind) before He chooses what to do with them.

The Catholic teaching I'm familiar with states that God "predestines" not by strict determinism but based on His foreknowledge of our future choices.

 

[John Mullally]

The only way a person can say no is if the person is lost and blind, unregenerate.
That is why Grace is irresistible is because by the time a person realizes yes or no, the answer is yes.
Kinda like getting tossed in a pond, then having someone ask, "Do you want to be wet, yes or no?" Do you have a choice?
A person who is in a state of Grace is a Yes. A person who is not in a state of Grace is a No.

Calvinism’s methodology involves “Irresistible Grace” to effectively pump out Yes-Men, and hence reduces God to mediocrity.

And why is irresistible grace no longer irresistible grace once a person is saved, so that Christians can so often be carnal.

 

[sawdust]

The Catholic teaching I'm familiar with states that God "predestines" not by strict determinism but based on His foreknowledge of our future choices.

It seems we agree He predestines on the basis of His foreknowledge but it does seem we differ on what God's foreknowledge is. I don't see how our choices having any bearing on where and when God places us in order to fulfill whatever particular destiny He has in store for us.

 

[fhansen]

It seems we agree He predestines on the basis of His foreknowledge but it does seem we differ on what God's foreknowledge is. I don't see how our choices having any bearing on where and when God places us in order to fulfill whatever particular destiny He has in store for us.

He knows the destiny beforehand, choosing to create this particular world where His will is ultimately done, but does not so affect and overwhelm us as to strictly determine our choices, without regard to our own choosing IOW. Man is created a free moral agent, left in the hands of his own counsel, and yet the only way he can fulfill is purpose is to freely turn to God, subjugating himself to God's wisdom and will and love.