Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[sawdust]

I don't either, but you will never arrive at any understanding of the thread. It would be absurd to think that Adam living in a relationship with God far closer and better than we do still fell.

Woah! I nearly fell off my chair when I read what I bolded in your statement. It seems you have no idea what we have been given that Adam never got.

Honestly, I'm lost for words and I have to say, that doesn't happen very often.

 

[Clare73]

Gen.2:17 says nothing about having eternal life. You are assuming Adam had eternal life.

NT understanding of man's immortal spirit is grounded in Ge 2:17.

Adam lost two kinds of life there, "Dying, you shall die." (Check out this translation with someone who knows Hebrew).
The first was God's divine eternal life imparted to his spirit, the second was physical life later on.

That's the reason for
1) the NT "re-birth" of Jn 3:3 -- from spiritual death (absence of God's eternal divine life) back to spiritual life (re-impartation of God's eternal divine life) to the immortal human spirit, which life Adam lost, as he did physical life.
2) the resurrection -- restoration from physical death back to physical immortality (1 Co 15:53), which immortality Adam lost, as he did spiritual life (God's eternal divine life imparted to the immortal human spirit).

We don't see the same thing in salvation (assuming I'm understanding you correctly). The Church was unheard of prior to the Cross

Yes. . .and no.

In Ac 7:38, Israel is called the assembly (ekkelsia; i.e., church) in the wilderness/desert.
The meaning of ek-klesia (church) is "called-out assembly."

and what we have been given is far superior to what was promised any OT saint. For example, Israel was promised a Messiah to rule over them. We (the Church) have been made a bride to rule with her Husband the Lord Jesus Christ. Not all believers inherit the same promises.

There is no basis in NT apostolic teaching for more than one group of God's people, the one olive tree of God's people (Ro 11:17-23), going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11:16), and into which it is Israel's destiny to be grafted back IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

Both Gentiles and Jews are part of the one people of God, the church.
God's gifts and irrevocable call (Ro 11:29) to Israel are being fulfilled in a remnant now (Ro 11:1-5), just as it is with the Gentiles.
Israel is on the same footing as the Gentiles, salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ. . .and God is saving a remnant of both.

 

[Clare73]

I don't either, but you will never arrive at any understanding of the thread. It would be absurd to think that Adam living in a relationship with God far closer and better than we do still fell.

So Adam didn't fall?

God wants man to love Him unconditionally as He loves us. He gave Adam free will to choose to love or not to love. Christ came to save mankind from the fall that we inherited from Adam. We still have free will, but we live in a fallen world with a fallen human nature, and you think man is immune from falling.

I know that the NT teaches that the elect will be saved, they will not fall away (Ro 8:29-30), they will be glorified.

Besides OSAS is a novel theory that came through Calvin only 400 years ago The two sides have been arguing for the same amount of time and no solution will ever be found. The historical Church has never had an issue with man losing faith.

I dunno'. . .Ro 8:29-30 seems pretty clear to me.

 

[timothyu]

Men are born without a human spirit which is why they are dead spiritually

Do you think when man suddenly has an epiphany of who they are in relation to God, that they have attained that spirit.. a rebirth?

 

[Clare73]

Because immaterial souls animate physical life, and immaterial immortal spirits animate spirit life (Lk 8:55, 1Co 5:3, 1 Co 7:34, Jas 2:26), while the immortal human spirit animates the human soul.

Those versus you quote are not only a terrible interpretation for your argument, they even defy your argument.

You say the soul animates physical life then quote Lk.8:55 where it is the return of the girls spirit by which she arises physically.

Read it again. . .what animates the human soul which animates human life? It is the immortal human spirit.
Her spirit, not her breath, animated her soul.

The body without the spirit is dead. (Jas 2:26) All bodies, redeemed or otherwise, have an immortal human spirit.
The redeemed have God's divine eternal life imparted to their immortal human spirit, the unredeemed do not.

Do you think Paul's actual spirit was in the midst of the Corinthians? The verse you quote has nothing to do with the function of soul and spirit.
The Cor.7 passage actually does apply but not as you think. The spirit is the receiver of spiritual truths which in turn feeds the soul which then controls the body.
At least, that is how God designed things to work. This is why the "soulish" man (1Cor.2:14) cannot comprehend spiritual truths for he has no spirit to discern what the Holy Spirit says ergo he cannot hide the word of God in his heart (seat of thought/values in the soul) (ps.119:11) to prevent one from sinning.

As for the James passage, context is everything. James is talking about one's spiritual life, not physical life and death.

If you (the body) had no spirit you would be dead spiritually.This is exactly what I have been saying all along. Men are born without a human spirit which is why they are dead spiritually.

Now surely you wouldn't "even defy your argument," by blatantly abusing the following grammar:

The body apart from the spirit is dead. (Jas 2:26)

where body = you, rather than your physical body,
and dead body = spiritual death rather than your physical death.

I don't think you have given anywhere near enough thought to this.

Are you sure about that?

Seems to me "near enough thought" means steam rolling the grammatical construction.

 

[sawdust]

NT understanding of man's immortal spirit is grounded in Ge 2:17.

And it says nothing about eternal life so why do you insist on inserting it?

Adam lost two kinds of life there, "Dying, you shall die." (Check out this translation with someone who knows Hebrew).
The first was God's divine eternal life imparted to his spirit, the second was physical life later on.

I know what the Hebrew says. You keep asserting he lost eternal life but you have no proof Adam had eternal life in the first place. It is pure assumption on your part. He died spiritually by means of his spirit returning to God for the human spirit is immortal and incorruptible as it is birthed from God and therefore cannot remain within a corrupted individual. Nor can it be given to a corrupted individual except by grace though faith (thanks be to Christ) which, is the way all believers have been made spiritually alive. It is the loss of Adam's spirit that may possibly have been the cause of the genetic corruption in his flesh which we all inherit, the "other law" that Paul refers to in Rom.7:23.

That's the reason for
1) the NT "re-birth" of Jn 3:3, restoration from spiritual death (absence of God's eternal divine life) back to spiritual life (re-impartation of God's eternal divine life) to the immortal human spirit, which life Adam lost, as he did physical life.
2) the resurrection, restoration from physical death back to physical immortality (1 Co 5:53), which immortality Adam lost, as he did spiritual life (God's eternal divine life imparted to the immortal human spirit).

Again with the assumptions. John 3:3 says nothing about imparting eternal life. Jesus made it very clear what the birth from above meant in Jn.3:6 when He said "Spirit gives birth to spirit". He likened it to physical birth in as much as just as your body is generated from your parents bodies, your spirit is generated by God the Holy Spirit. We know flesh from flesh is referring to physical life because Nicodemus understood it that way ("how can a man go back into the womb?" Jn.3:4) and erroneously tried to apply it to the spiritual birth.

You understand immortal means "unable to die"? As noted from both of us, the human spirit cannot die, this is why it had to return to God who gave it. Adam never had physical immortality to lose in the first place. His body was alway mortal, that is, having the capacity to die yet as long as he was true to the word of God he would not have died physically. The purpose of the mortal body was to keep us relying on God's word for "man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds form the mouth of God". Physical life is as dependent on God's word just as much as spiritual life.

Yes. . .and no.

In Ac 7:38, Israel is called the assembly (ekkelsia; i.e., church) in the wilderness/desert.
The meaning of ek-klesia (church) is "called-out assembly."

Now you're just clutching at straws.

There is no basis in NT apostolic teaching for more than one group of God's people, the one olive tree of God's people (Ro 11:17-23), going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11:16), and into which it is Israel's destiny to be grafted back IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

And by your own statement you have excluded anyone pre-Abraham. All believers belong to Christ and will be raised "each in his own order". The word translated order was used in a military sense depicting the various divisions of an army. Not all believers belong to the same "order". If they did, there would be no need to distinguish the individual (each one) according to their company (own order).

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Both Gentiles and Jews are part of the one people of God, the church.

Yes, now Jews are part of the Church but the Church didn't exist in the OT. Israel was not baptized into Christ but into Moses. 1Cor.10:2

 

[sawdust]

Do you think when man suddenly has an epiphany of who they are in relation to God, that they have attained that spirit.. a rebirth?

Maybe but I don't think necessarily. No-one suddenly wakes up one day and believes in Christ. It's a process, initiated by God. If you look at the opposite of the Romans 1 type (those who reject God as creator) and believes there is indeed a Deity who is eternal power behind creation? They don't know anything in relation to the personal nature of God and His Christ. Until we are born from above, the Holy Spirit steps up to the plate (so to speak) to manifest the truth within us because we don't have the apparatus needed to know spiritual truths.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural (psuchikos/soulish) man does not receive the things (spiritual truths) of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them (lacking the correct apparatus ie. no spirit), because they are spiritually discerned (Spirit to spirit).

(Words in brackets are mine for clarification)

However, notwithstanding what I said above, the context of me using "epiphany" and linking it to Heb.4:12, I believe it is only applicable to believers who are indeed born from above.

 

[sawdust]

Now surely you wouldn't "even defy your argument," by blatantly abusing the following grammar:

The body apart from the spirit is dead. (Jas 2:26)

where body = you, rather than your physical body,
and dead body = spiritual death rather than your physical death.

Again, James is talking about spiritual life not physical life. When a body, a person, has no spirit, they are considered dead, spiritually. Compare Matt.

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead (spiritually dead ie. the body without a spirit) bury their own dead (physically dead).”

Are you sure about that?

Seems to me "near enough thought" means steam rolling the grammar.

Very sure. You misunderstood. I clarified above.


The spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc.12:7) so what animated the souls in Sheol awaiting the Cross?

The Spirit gives birth to spirit? (Jn.3:6) Why do you keep insisting God is not birthing spirit but is instead imparting eternal life? That is not a birth at all. That's like saying your mother gave birth to you when she named you.

All you do is make a statement of what you believe to be true but give no logical backing for it. You claim how the spirit, soul and body works while at the same time say you're not able to divide them in their function. If you don't know how they function, you cannot make claims on how they work.

 

[Clare73]

I know what the Hebrew says. You keep asserting he lost eternal life but you have no proof Adam had eternal life in the first place. It is pure assumption on your part. He died spiritually by means of his spirit returning to God.

And that puts you in disagreement with the word of God:

The body without the spirit is dead (Jas 2:26).

His immortal spirit didn't return to God until hundreds of years after the fall when his body died,
however, he also died when he fell ("Dying, you shall die," Ge 2:17--present and future). Why do you ignore the text?
His body didn't die in the present, his immortal spirit can never die, but it can experience a spiritual death, which is a loss of God's divine eternal life imparted to it.
You have not addressed Ge 2:17, nor Jas 2:26.

for the human spirit is immortal and incorruptible as it is birthed from God and therefore cannot remain within a corrupted individual. Nor can it be given to a corrupted individual except by grace though faith (thanks be to Christ) which, is the way all believers have been made spiritually alive. It is the loss of Adam's spirit that may possibly have been the cause of the genetic corruption in his flesh which we all inherit, the "other law" that Paul refers to in Rom.7:23.
Again with the assumptions. John 3:3 says nothing about imparting eternal life. Jesus made it very clear what the birth from above meant in Jn.3:6 when He said "Spirit gives birth to spirit".

Yes, the Holy Spirit gives birth to (imparts) God's divine eternal life to the immortal human spirit.

He likened it to physical birth in as much as just as your body is generated from your parents bodies, your spirit is generated by God the Holy Spirit.

And the body without the spirit is dead (Jas 2:26). . .so the immortal human spirit was given in the beginning, not when God's divine eternal life was re-imparted to the immortal human spirit.

We know flesh from flesh is referring to physical life because Nicodemus understood it that way ("how can a man go back into the womb?" Jn.3:4) and erroneously tried to apply it to the spiritual birth.
You understand immortal means "unable to die"? As noted from both of us, the human spirit cannot die, this is why it had to return to God who gave it. Adam never had physical immortality to lose in the first place.

Contraire. . .see Ge 2:17. Mortality (physical death) was part of the result of the fall.

His body was alway mortal, that is, having the capacity to die yet as long as he was true to the word of God he would not have died physically. The purpose of the mortal body was to keep us relying on God's word for "man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds form the mouth of God". Physical life is as dependent on God's word just as much as spiritual life.
Now you're just clutching at straws.

Describes the above perfectly.

Agreed. . .
And by your own statement you have excluded anyone pre-Abraham.

That would be the word of God who did not call a people out to himself; i.e., a church, until Abraham.

All believers belong to Christ and will be raised "each in his own order". The word translated order was used in a military sense depicting the various divisions of an army. Not all believers belong to the same "order". If they did, there would be no need to distinguish the individual (each one) according to their company (own order).

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

And the two orders of the resurrection are stated in that very text:
1) Firstfruit - Christ,
2) Second coming - mankind, at the end of time (in the last day).

Yes, now Jews are part of the Church but the Church didn't exist in the OT.

Ro 11:16-24 disagrees with you. . .God's one olive tree goes back to Abraham, from which the Jews, but for a remnant, have been cut off.

Israel was not baptized into Christ but into Moses. 1Cor.10:2

The OT church was baptized into their Mediator, as the NT church is into their Mediator (Gal 3:19, 1 Ti 2:5, Heb 8:6, Heb 9:15, Heb 12:24),
same God, one olive tree, one people.

 

[timothyu]

No-one suddenly wakes up one day and believes in Christ. It's a process, initiated by God.

I was referring to believing there is a God but not understanding our connection to Him prior to the epiphany

 

[Clare73]

Again, James is talking about spiritual life not physical life. When a body, a person, has no spirit, they are considered dead, spiritually. Compare Matt.
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead (spiritually dead ie. the body without a spirit) bury their own dead (physically dead).”

Not according to the grammatical construction of Jas 2:26.

Very sure. You misunderstood. I clarified above.

The spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc.12:7) so what animated the souls in Sheol awaiting the Cross?

Prior to the cross the spirits were in Sheol, the righteous in Abraham's Bosom (side), and the unrighteous in Hades (Lk 16:19-31).
Immortality of the soul (when it is not used in reference to the whole person) is not presented in Scripture.

The Spirit gives birth to spirit? (Jn.3:6) Why do you keep insisting God is not birthing spirit but is instead imparting eternal life?

Why do you keep denying that "the body without the spirit is dead" (Jas 2:26)?

That is not a birth at all. That's like saying your mother gave birth to you when she named you.

All you do is make a statement of what you believe to be true but give no logical backing for it. You claim how the spirit, soul and body works while at the same time say you're not able to divide them in their function. If you don't know how they function, you cannot make claims on how they work.

You haven't been paying attention (post #73).

If both spirit and soul are presented with the same functions, you can't separate those functions as exclusively the function of one or the other.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God does not choose who will believe. He desires all men believe so much so that He is calling all men to repentance. Man needs to choose between life and death. If life then he must remain faithful, endure to the end, bear fruit, become conformed to His Likeness. He surely can choose to change back to the status of unbeliever. I gave you two examples. If you need more scripture has many more.

Just so you know, your two examples are warnings. Not actual examples of people who changed back. None of your many more are either. Been down that road with others who thought so too.

 

[parousia70]

That is no biblical reason to assert that Adam could not have physically died before (or without) the fall, and every biblical reason to assert he could have.

The existence of the tree of life in the garden primary among them.
Intrinsically Immortal physical beings wouldn’t need it, and Adam was told he could freely eat of it. (Or not)

Consuming from the tree of life was required for Adam to be able to physically live forever.

And he was free to consume of it or not before the fall.

The only difference is, absent the fall, physical death had no power to separate Adam from God. The fall changed that.

 

[timothyu]

But did that not require constant nourishment from the tree. Reference in Rev. might indicate so.

 

[Clare73]

That is no biblical reason to assert that Adam could not have physically died before (or without) the fall, and every biblical reason to assert he could have.

The existence of the tree of life in the garden primary among them.
Intrinsically Immortal physical beings wouldn’t need it, and Adam was told he could freely eat of it. (Or not)

Consuming from the tree of life was required for Adam to be able to physically live forever.

And he was free to consume of it or not before the fall.

The only difference is, absent the fall, physical death had no power to separate Adam from God. The fall changed that.

How do you know which life the tree was, physical or spiritual or both?

 

[sawdust]

I was referring to believing there is a God but not understanding our connection to Him prior to the epiphany

Ok but I'm not really sure what you are getting at. The Hebrew verse applies to believers.

 

[parousia70]

How do you know which life tree was, physical or spiritual or both?

Well, we know it’s at least for spiritual.
We can only speculate as to whether physical was included or not. I’m not dogmatic about that part.

 

[sawdust]

And that puts you in disagreement with the word of God:

No, it just puts me in disagreement with you.

His immortal spirit didn't return to God until hundreds of years after the fall when his body died,

His spirit was returned to him when he repented and believed and the Lord made the animal sacrifice. Adam and Eve are really the only ones who have actually been born again literally. They had two spiritual births.

You have not addressed Ge 2:17, nor Jas 2:26.

I have. You just don't like the answer I gave. If Adam had eternal life then he could not have died spiritually. You responded by saying God changed the goalposts for the rest of us compared to Adam. A body without a spirit has no functioning spiritual life just as faith without any works is dead. Faith comes from the word (Rom.10:17). Do you want to say faith can ever be truly dead? Or is James telling us "don't be fooled by thinking just because you believe something you must have faith". If you really have faith works will flow out from you. This is where the Hebrews 4:12 verse kicks in ... if you have an ear to hear. Anyone can believe anything because believing comes from the soul but the spirit only deals with truth. If you do not have the truth in your spirit it cannot feed the soul. It's why the soulish man cannot comprehend spiritual things. The soul doesn't need a spirit to animate it. The soul is breath in itself, it has it's own life but it most definitely needs a spirit to feed it the truth of God.

Yes, the Holy Spirit gives birth to (imparts) God's divine eternal life to the immortal human spirit.

If only that is what it said but it doesn't.

And the body without the spirit is dead (Jas 2:26). . .so the immortal human spirit was given in the beginning, not when God's divine eternal life was re-imparted to the immortal human spirit.

That doesn't even seem to make sense. You would have to talking about Adam and Eve only here as none of us have ever had eternal life "re-imparted". In that case the James verse has no application for the rest of us. You seem to be wandering.

Prior to the cross the spirits were in Sheol, the righteous in Abraham's Bosom (side), and the unrighteous in Hades (Lk 16:19-31).
Immortality of the soul (when it is not used in reference to the whole person) is not presented in Scripture.

I never said the soul was immortal. That's just another of your assumptions if you think I believe the soul is immortal. Please tell us how these "spirits" (on the Hades side) became corrupted (unrighteous). Do you understand if something is immortal it is incorruptible as well? If something cannot die, it cannot be subject to destruction and/or decay. I think we can agree these "spirits" were definitely corrupted.

You haven't been paying attention (post #73).

If both spirit and soul are presented with the same functions, you can't separate those functions as exclusively the function of one or the other.

Oi vey! I'm not even Jewish but that expression is just so spot on.

Your post#73 response was to the following.

What is impossible for you is not impossible for the word of God.

Just because you can't see it Clare doesn't mean it can't be done and if you study the word enough with a qualified pastor you will begin to see how the spirit, soul and body function in their connections and their uniqueness.

 

[GenemZ]

Do you think when man suddenly has an epiphany of who they are in relation to God, that they have attained that spirit.. a rebirth?

That have the epiphany BECAUSE they became born again. The rebirth came first.

That is what being 'born again' means.

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." John 3:6

 

[GenemZ]

I already gave two examples. You have several other parables, Prodigal son was lost/dead and repented and returned to the Father, The 10 Virgins, Parable of the tree and the fruitless branches being cut off and burned. There are more.

The prodigal son did not lose salvation. He lost the benefits that accompany salvation. Benefits to have if one remains faithful.
He began to walk after the desires of his flesh and his life became miserable. He then returned to his father ( doing the father's will) and was instantly accepted, and not rejected by the father for having disobeyed his father's will.

Like Peter did. He denied the Lord three times. But, Peter never was forsaken by the Lord for what he had done, and was readily accepted back when Peter returned to following Jesus.