Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[sawdust]

Just wait and we sinners will die unless Jesus sees us fit to go throught the tribulation and see his second coming

We're talking about spiritual death, not physical death. Only those alive at the Resurrection of the Church will not die physically.

 

[Clare73]

You do understand that immortal means "unable to die". You effectively have left Adam with a dead immortal human spirit. It's an oxymoron.

Seems you misunderstand. . .spiritual death and physical death are not connected.

It still doesn't answer the question. Spiritual and physical death are connected we both agree.

No, that is where the misunderstanding lies.

Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, which cannot die.
Spiritual death is the absence of God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit, and which does not affect physical life.

Spiritual death and physical death are not connected.
We are born in spiritual death (no God's divine eternal life imparted to our immortal spirits) and condemned (Ro 5:18),
the remedy for which is being "born from above" (Jn 3:3) and faith in and trust on the person (Eph 2:8-9) and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin, which faith both
a) saves from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) and condemnation (Ro 5:18) on sin, and
b) justifies; i.e., whereby God imputes a forensic righteousness (sentence of acquittal of guilt, declaration of right standing with his Court), as was done to Abraham by faith (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3).

Actual (imparted) righteousness is by obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19) in the Christian life.

I wasn't talking about how we are born spiritually, I'm talking about believers who have eternal life and don't die spiritually when we sin. Having eternal life is what guarantees we will never die spiritually. (Jn3:15,16) If Adam had eternal life when he was created then how could he have died spiritually? You are effectively having one rule for Adam and another rule for the rest of us.

Spiritual death does not mean death of the immortal human spirit, which cannot die,
it means absence of God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit, which is what Adam lost; i.e., eternal life.

 

[Clare73]

1 Timothy 6:15-16 King James Version​

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
immortal spirit defies the above biblical statement

The problem with your misunderstanding is that Jesus showed otherwise in Mt 22:29-32:

"God said I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Thus Jesus showed that the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive; i.e., immortal.

Dt 31:16 - "And the Lord said to Moses: 'You are going to rest with your fathers," not you are going into annihilation.

So regarding 1 Ti 6:15-16: God only has immortality in himself, just as he only has life in himself.
However, he gives both life and immortality to man, mortal physical life and immortal spirit life, which immortal spirit without God's divine eternal life is in spiritual death (loss of eternal life imparted to the immortal spirit), but not death of the immortal spirit itself, which does not die (1 Co 5:1-9, Lk 8:53-55, Jn 8:51).

 

[GenemZ]

Does this mean OT saints did not have eternal life?

As far as I have seen. They will have everlasting life... Always in constant contact with eternal life. No evil will be known to them.

Having eternal life makes us an extension of God to those who have everlasting life. That is why those who mature in Christ will reign with Him. Reign over who? Those who have everlasting life.

 

[GenemZ]

Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, which cannot die.
Spiritual death is the absence of God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit, and which does not affect physical life.

Spiritual death is God's denial of giving us a human spirit as long as we remain fallen and not redeemed.

Only Adam alone, who was created without sin, was able to experience spiritual death. That death was experienced by Adam when his human spirit was removed by God when he fell. The human spirit did not die. It was removed. For on the day he ate he DIED.

Quickly God redeemed Adam and the woman because while hiding they repented. That is why blood was shed to provide them the animal skins....

We on the other hand are born with a sin nature. Nowhere for the human spirit to be imputed.

God can not impart a human spirit to us until redemption is activated in us by belief in Jesus Christ. Once we are saved the human spirit we receive can not die, nor be removed as with Adam. But, out of willful wrongdoing? We can cut off our soul from fellowship with God ... Cut off until we recognize and confess our sins (1 John 1:9).

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.​

When we confess our sins? God restores fellowship with the Holy Spirit, and our human spirit begins to flow within our thinking once again.

But, once saved? We can not die spiritually like Adam did. For the Cross that atoned for all our sins guarantees we can not lose our human spirit.

If someone enters into willful carnality against God? He will continue having his human spirit because of the atonement of the Cross. But, his "spirituality" will have become dead. Dead until he refuses to deal with his sins. He will lose his function to be spiritual. For the ignition switch to our spiritual engine is turned off until the "key of confession" is utilized.

grace and peace ..........

 

[Clare73]

Spiritual death is God's denial of giving us a human spirit as long as we remain fallen and not redeemed.

Not in orthodox Christianity. . .nor in Lk 8:53-55.

 

[GenemZ]

Not in orthodox Christianity. . .nor in Lk 8:53-55.

Tell us what's wrong with this I said...

Spiritual death is God's denial of giving us a human spirit as long as we remain fallen and not redeemed.


It is orthodox theology. Maybe, not your form of Christianity.

Not all that is called Christianity today is theology being manifested properly.


For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number
of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

2 Timothy 4:3

 

[GenemZ]

Not in orthodox Christianity. . .nor in Lk 8:53-55.

You are conflating spiritual death, and what happens to a believer when they die?
That girl had died physically. Not spiritually.

When you physically die your soul and spirit leaves the body.
If God resuscitates you, as he did with the girl, your soul and human spirit return to the body.

But, there is something else to be found in Luke 8:55...

`And her spirit (pneuma) returned,
and she 'rose up'/'got up' immediately."

Pnuema can mean "breath."
She began breathing again, and got right up.



................

 

[sawdust]

Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, which cannot die.
Spiritual death is the absence of God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit, and which does not affect physical life.

You can keep saying that till the cows come home but it doesn't make it so.

The human spirit doesn't die. My stance from the time we started discussing this (in the other threads) has been we do not have a human spirit apart from faith in Christ. When Adam sinned his spirit returned to God who gave it (Ecc.12:7). Why? Because the human spirit is something of the very nature of God ie. immortal and incorruptible. God cannot be in fellowship with corrupted flesh (except through faith). Your insistence that we do have a spirit has God giving corrupted people a spirit which only He can generate without any recourse to their attitude to Christ. The human spirit is generated by God who is Spirit. It does not come from our parents. There is no such thing as a "natural" spirit as you have tried to claim in the past. The very term is an oxymoron. Spirit is spirit, nature is nature.

Spiritual death and physical death are not connected.

You said the following but now you say the two deaths are not connected? It isn't that I misunderstand what you say Clare, your words simply don't add up.

the physical death of his body being the proof of the loss of God's divine eternal life within his immortal spirit ("Dying, you shall die." Ge 2:17).

Spiritual death does not mean death of the immortal human spirit, which cannot die,
it means absence of God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit, which is what Adam lost; i.e., eternal life.

Spiritual death does not mean losing eternal life as that is the "antidote" to spiritual death. (Rom.6:23) If you have eternal life you cannot die.
It means having no human spirit just as having no body means physical death.

 

[Cassian]

Again it fails to answer .. we sin and don't die. Adam sinned and died. Why? What's the difference?

Two different kinds of death is being referenced. When Adam sinned, the sin itself broke the relationship he had with God (spiritual death). But God in His divine wisdom permitted Adam to become mortal and suffer physical death as well. Glen 3:19. His plan is not fully realized until Christ enters this Universe by being Incarnated by the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit by taking on our human natures and by His death and resurrection overcomes our physical death and in the eschaton we (mankind) will be raised to incorruptibility and immortality. The permanent problem of sin was solved by Christ sacrifice for sin. So when we sin, which is spiritual death, we can be restored to Christ by confession and remission of sin. Which is why those that live in sin or return to sin are separated from God, but as long as one lives in this world, one can believe/faith, repent and be restored to a union with Christ.

 

[sawdust]

Two different kinds of death is being referenced. When Adam sinned, the sin itself broke the relationship he had with God (spiritual death). But God in His divine wisdom permitted Adam to become mortal and suffer physical death as well. Glen 3:19. His plan is not fully realized until Christ enters this Universe by being Incarnated by the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit by taking on our human natures and by His death and resurrection overcomes our physical death and in the eschaton we (mankind) will be raised to incorruptibility and immortality. The permanent problem of sin was solved by Christ sacrifice for sin. So when we sin, which is spiritual death, we can be restored to Christ by confession and remission of sin. Which is why those that live in sin or return to sin are separated from God, but as long as one lives in this world, one can believe/faith, repent and be restored to a union with Christ.

I agree with what you have said here but it doesn't really explain if Adam had eternal life or not. This thread arose because someone was claiming that "spiritual death is loss of eternal life". But that got me to thinking "if the antithesis to spiritual death is eternal life (and it is according to Rom.6:23), then how could Adam have died spiritually?" This is what led me to believe Adam did not have eternal life.

So far no-one has been able to give a satisfactory answer to that particular problem.

 

[Clare73]

Tell us what's wrong with this I said...

Spiritual death is God's denial of giving us a human spirit as long as we remain fallen and not redeemed.

Jesus presented an immortal human spirit in the unredeemed rich man (Lk 16:22-23), whose human immortal spirit was in hell.
And Jesus' illustrations were always based in fact, never in fantasy, for the non-existent cannot pattern the existent.

It is orthodox theology.

Where do we find it historically?

 

[Cassian]

I agree with what you have said here but it doesn't really explain if Adam had eternal life or not. This thread arose because someone was claiming that "spiritual death is loss of eternal life". But that got me to thinking "if the antithesis to spiritual death is eternal life (and it is according to Rom.6:23), then how could Adam have died spiritually?" This is what led me to believe Adam did not have eternal life.

So far no-one has been able to give a satisfactory answer to that particular problem.

Adam was created eternal and was in union/relationship with God. Man was created to be in union with God ever conforming more to His likeness.
We know Adam was neither mortal or immortal. Depending on man's free will these could result. Based on what we know of the NT and understand of ones relationship with Christ by/through faith. By believing we have eternal life, but it is conditional of enduring, continuing, remaining faithful. Many a believer has lost faith through sin, we know that one loses eternal life (relationship with God/Christ. It can be restored by repentance. So one could surmise that Adam also had eternal life and through sin lost it. Scripture never says he repented but the Church believes he did and would have been restored to eternal life.

 

[Clare73]

You are conflating spiritual death, and what happens to a believer when they die?

No. . .I am presenting the immortal spirit in the unredeemed (Lk 16:22-23).

 

[GenemZ]

I agree with what you have said here but it doesn't really explain if Adam had eternal life or not. This thread arose because someone was claiming that "spiritual death is loss of eternal life". But that got me to thinking "if the antithesis to spiritual death is eternal life (and it is according to Rom.6:23), then how could Adam have died spiritually?" This is what led me to believe Adam did not have eternal life.

So far no-one has been able to give a satisfactory answer to that particular problem.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 6:23​

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Spiritual death was solved simply by regeneration. Born again. The Holy Spirit begets our human spirit. Body, soul, and spirit.

But, Eternal life? God goes beyond simple regeneration in our case! We are not simply born again as known to OT believers before the Church age began.

Eternal life is God not simply providing regeneration. He is not only providing our human spirit.
Eternal life is entering us into a new realm. Something new and beyond previous regeneration.
Into a divine realm that regenerated people of the past before the church age never knew.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; ​

behold, all things have become new. " 2 Cor 5:17​

​

"he is a new creation."​

The Greek of 'new creation' speaks of a new thing. Something that never existed before!
No OT believer was a new creation in Christ!

OT saints were regenerated when they believed.
They were born again! But, they were not given eternal life! Only everlasting life.

Eternal life is given only to the new creation in Christ!

For we have become the permanent temple of the Holy Spirit!
The Holy Spirit is God! Therefore, God = Eternal life!

We (the Church) have been given eternal life!

The Bride of Christ has been given God to be living through them, which we will experience in a phenomenal way after the Resurrection!
Its beyond what we can now dream or imagine.

​

"The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears this say, ​

“Come!” Let whoever is thirsty come; whoever wishes may have the water​

of life as a free gift." Rev 22:17​

See that? What we will be saying is what the Spirit is saying!

In a sense? To all those outside of the church age? Who are not called to be the Bride of Christ?
How will we the church be seen to them? As... "Mrs. Christ!"

We have been elevated to a position in Christ that is far beyond mere regeneration.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23​

God does not simply save us to being regenerated. In the Church age?
He has included a special gift just for His Bride! Eternal life!

As He lives, so shall we be under Him.

​

For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, ​

his body, and is himself its Savior." Ephesians 5:23​

grace and peace .........

 

[Clare73]

You can keep saying that till the cows come home but it doesn't make it so.

The human spirit doesn't die. My stance from the time we started discussing this (in the other threads) has been we do not have a human spirit apart from faith in Christ.

I suggest that you take it up with Jesus in Lk 16:22-23, where he presents the immortal spirit of the unredeemed rich man.

 

[GenemZ]

Adam was created eternal and was in union/relationship with God.

Eternal can not be created. Eternal life can only be given as a gift.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 6:23​

We need to better understand what these words mean or we will be in confusion.

We have been given the gift of eternal life. We have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit. "Given eternal life."

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ ​

for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38​

The Holy Spirit is God.
God is eternal life!
We are given the *gift* of the Holy Spirit.
Hence.. we have been given "eternal life."

grace and peace ..........

 

[Cassian]

Eternal can not be created. Eternal life can only be given as a gift.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 6:23​

We need to better understand what these words mean or we will be in confusion.

We have been given the gift of eternal life. We have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit. "Given eternal life."

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ ​

for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38​

The Holy Spirit is God.
God is eternal life!
We are given the *gift* of the Holy Spirit.
Hence.. we have been given "eternal life."

grace and peace ..........

How does that change anything. Adam was created to be eternal. He was not created to live a short duration and be destroyed.
Why would not God have given him eternal life, a gift, as part of his creation? He was created in union with God. We are not.

 

[GenemZ]

No. . .I am presenting the immortal spirit in the unredeemed (Lk 16:22-23).

No mention of spirit there anywhere. Show us where?

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. ​

The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked ​

up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." Luke 16:22-23​

Not their spirit. That speaks of their souls that can be seen when entered into the realm they were in.

Rev 6:9-10 speaks of souls of martyred believers who will be both seen and heard. Martyred during the Tribulation.

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When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain ​

because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a ​

loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of ​

the earth and avenge our blood?”​

Once we leave this realm of the material world? Souls of those who died can be seen and heard without bodies

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain ​

because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a ​

loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of ​

the earth and avenge our blood?”​

There is much to learn before we appear before Him to be evaluated.

grace and peace ...........

 

[GenemZ]

How does that change anything. Adam was created to be eternal.

He was created to be everlasting. Eternal life is God's life. God was never created. Adam was.
Eternal life has no beginning. It "always was" existing. Adam definitely was created in a point of time.