Daniel 12:13 undeniably proves that the AOD fits in the end of this age, not 2000 years ago.

[5thKingdom]

In order to agree or disagree with anyone, one must first be on the same page with the one one is agreeing with or disagreeing with, meaning they understand their position. So then, let's see if I'm on the same page with you first.


The destruction of the Fourth Beast/Revelation Beast BEFORE the end of the 2nd Woe... Rev 19:20

That is NOT what I teach... it is what the Gospel teaches:


(4) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake", and the "Final Harvest"
is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".
Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time,
the Bible reveals [v.14] the TIMING of this event – it is just before the end of the "Second Woe"... that is important.


If you do not understand that the Beast is destroyed BEFORE the end of the 2nd Woe...
that only demonstrates you do not understand the Gospel.
The Scripture is clear. Why are you not?

Which then means Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled before the events involving the 6th trumpet are fulfilled.

Correct

Assuming I'm on the same page in regards to that, the following would be my assessment of this, assuming this scenario. This then implies to me, maybe not to you, that the 2nd coming of Christ, His bodily return, happens prior to the 3rd woe, the 7th trumpet. Because, after all, it is preposterous that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without Christ having bodily returned first.

No... as I ALREADY explained to you.

Your PROBLEM is you ASSUME the Lord Returns BEFORE the "Season and Time"...
when He Returns AFTER the "Season and Time".

It's as simple as that

There is a "Season and Time" on earth AFTER the Fourth Beast is destroyed
and BEFORE the 7th Trumpet sounds.

That is correct.

There is a "Season and Time" BETWEEN Rev 19:20 (when the Fourth Beast is destroyed)
and Rev 20:10 (when Satan and all his "kingdoms" - governments - are destroyed)

To find Biblical Truth
you must HARMONIZE the "Season and Time" with Satan's destruction.

Which then means this season and time is meaning satan's little season after the thousand years.

NO... only in your imagination.
Satan's "Little Season" is AFTER the Great Commission.
It is also shown in Scripture as:

(1) Daniel's Fourth Beast
(2) the Revelation Beast
(3) the Great Tribulation
(4) the RULE of the Anti-Christ
(5) DURING Satan's "Little Season"

How in the world can you pretend to understand ANYTHING about Satan's "Little Season"
when you do not understand Daniel's Fourth Beast?
You cannot understand.
And you do not.

I am amazed that you STILL do not understand the MOST BASIC of understanding:

Daniel's Fourth Beast = the Revelation = the Great Tribulation = the Rule of the Anti-Christ = Satan's "Little Season"

Your PROBLEM is you do not understand the above.

Which then means the 7th trumpet is at the end of satan's little season,

No... the END of Satan's "Little Season" is Rev 19:20 when the FOURTH BEAST is destroyed.

The END of Satan's "Little Season" is when the Last Saints are included in the Final Harvest

Please pay attention to the FINAL HARVEST... you cannot understand the Chronology of the End
when you do not understand the TIMING of the Final Harvest:


---------


Again, this is information that remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints “shall understand” during
the “Time-of-the-End”. [Dan 12:8-10] The Lord has PROMISED the Last Saints “shall see all of these things” which
He foretold about the Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast. [Mat 24: 15, 33] This is just part of the “mysteries”
God has PROMISED the Last Saints would preach – as the Seventh Trumpet “begins to sound”. [Rev 10:7-11]
In fact, the Bible contains several passages related to this event… the “Final Harvest” of “Wise Virgins”.


(1) In Matthew 25 destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of "Babylon the Great" is shown [v.10] when the "Door was Shut".
The "Final Harvest" of the “Wise Virgins” is shown [v.10] as they are taken into the "Marriage" saying;
"they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage: and the Door was Shut".


(2) In Revelation 18 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom is shown [v.2] as "Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen".
The "Final Harvest" of “Wise Virgins”, immediately before the destruction of Babylon, is shown [v.4] as the Lord Commands
the Last Saints to "Come out of her, My people". And the Last Saints are told [v.20] to "rejoice"
over the destruction of Babylon for "God hath avenged you on her".



(3) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet and Revelations Beast are
"cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest" immediately before destruction of the "great harlot"
[v.2] is shown as the Saints are commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God”.
Then [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Saints are "called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb".
Again we see, [v.2] when God destroys the Kingdom of "Babylon" He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".
This FULFILLS a promise God made to earlier Saints – in completion of the Fifth Seal [Rev 6:9-11]. This is important!


(4) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake", and the "Final Harvest"
is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".
Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time,
the Bible reveals [v.14] the TIMING of this event – it is just before the end of the "Second Woe"... that is important.


(5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when "the Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the Burning Flame". The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall
take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever, even for ever and ever". Again, the "Final Harvest" is shown
[v.22] when "Judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the
Kingdom". In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of this period on earth after the "Final Harvest",
after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:11-12] specifically names this period the "Season and Time".
Here we see the “Time-of-the-End” is also shown as the “Season and Time” after the Fourth Beast is destroyed.4

Assuming I'm on the same page in regards to that,

But (again) your are NOT on the same page
because you DO NOT UNDERSTAND the timing of the Final Harvest

the following would be my assessment of this, assuming this scenario. This then implies to me, maybe not to you, that Christ is bodily present during all of satan's little season from start to finish,

Just stop...
you have not SCRIPTURE teaching that nonsense


/

 

[Timtofly]

You need to do a Bible Study to determine WHAT
the two olive trees and two candlesticks REPRESENT

Rev_11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

So in other words all the church from Abel to the last soul on earth will be the "two witnesses", all several billion, killing people who take the mark during the last 42 months before Armageddon. Who will be left, after this multi billion "Christian" army kills them, every last one, to fight at Armageddon?

 

[5thKingdom]

So in other words all the church from Abel to the last soul on earth will be the "two witnesses", all several billion, killing people who take the mark during the last 42 months before Armageddon. Who will be left, after this multi billion "Christian" army kills them, every last one, to fight at Armageddon?

No... why would you say that?

The Bible is clear:
the two witnesses prophecy for 1260 days (this represents the Great Commission)
and when their "testimony is finished" (this represents the Great Tribulation Kingdom0
Satan overcomes them.

The Bible is crystal clear the Last Saints are RULED by Satan and his Anti-Christ
during the Fourth Beast, the Revelation Beast, the Great Tribulation and Satan's "Little Season"...

BTW... the Great Tribulation is NOT 42 months.
That false doctrine depends on NOT KNOWING the harmony of Scripture.

The Great Tribulation is shown as:
3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (the 42 months0
and 3.5 "watches of the night".

MOREOVER...
The BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation... the DURATION of Daniel's Abomination
is 2300 days (literal "evenings/mornings") which is 6.4 years..
and THEN the "Sanctuary is cleansed"... how long does THAT take?

When you develop a doctrine based on ONE VERSE you will have a false doctrine.
To find Biblical Truth you must harmonize ALL RELATED passages
This is Christian Theology 101


/

 

[Jamdoc]

Regardless what one concludes about who the 2Ws are, when they rise from the dead it is before the 7th trumpet sounds, and not when it sounds. Yet, the rapture involves the sounding of a trumpet, except there is no sound of a trumpet at the end of the 6th trumpet, the sounding of a trumpet was at the beginning, and the sounding of the next trumpet is also at the beginning of something.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Once again, at the end of the 6th trumpet events there is no sounding of a trumpet. That occurs at the beginning of the 6th trumpet events, and that the next sounding of a trumpet occurs at the beginning of the 7th trumpet events, and that the 2Ws are told to Come up hither, towards the end of the 6th trumpet events, not at the beginning of the 7th trumpet events. Don't know how one can reconcile that with the 2Ws equaling the NT church, since it would contradict that the church is raptured during the sounding of a trumpet, and that it would also mean that the church is raptured to heaven though some views argue that the church is never raptured to heaven.

Here's the problem with your line of thinking.

You think Paul is referring to the 7th trumpet.
He was not. Revelation wouldn't be written for decades after Paul died. Paul taught from the Old Testament, and probably had 1 Gospel account maybe not even written down.

Now, even if you say "oh well Paul was close with the Holy Spirit so it'd give him direct revelation about the 7 trumpet judgements!"
Paul was communicating to the Church at Corinth.
and no we don't all get extrabiblical revelation and visions about God's plans independently of the bible.
Paul doesn't go on to explain 7 trumpet judgements..
so...

What was Paul referring to?
Well obviously Paul was referring to the Olivet Discourse... but what was Jesus referring to? Because He didn't explain 7 trumpet judgements either.
all the Olivet Discourse goes up to 6th seal.. then just stops. He comes back riding the clouds in power and great Glory.


So was Jesus referring to 7 trumpets of judgement blown by angels or... were both Jesus, and Paul referring to something else?

Let's look at the text

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

That's 6th seal signs

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Pausing to highlight who the subject, who the "he" is in the next verse, it's the Son of Man, Jesus is referring to Himself

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Who's blowing the trumpet, the Son of Man, or the angels? I'd argue it's the Son of Man who blows the trumpet.

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Now, to be fair, this one is ambiguous, you could perhaps argue that an Angel blows the trump of God and it could be the 7th trumpet if so.
However... again.. Paul wasn't reading Revelation to have the image of an angel blowing a trumpet in his mind.

Now what do I think they were referring to?

Zechariah 9

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

Do you understand what Jesus was saying by referring back to this passage? Do you understand what Paul saw in the Olivet Discourse when Paul understood that Jesus was referring back to this passage, and why Paul referred to it too?

Jesus was here equating Himself to the Lord God. Note that Jesus used the description of His coming being like lightning, that comes from this passage, that God would be seen above them (in the clouds, as other old testament passages about the coming of the Lord say), and as the passage says that God will blow the trumpet, Jesus, equating Himself with God said He would blow the trumpet and send the angels.
Jesus was saying, "all those times in the old testament where it says that God is going to descend from Heaven and do these things to the wicked and save Israel? That's me, I'm going to do that. That's my coming."
Paul knew this passage. So when Jesus referred back to it, Paul made the connection, that when this happened, when Jesus descended from heaven and blew the trumpet, it would save His people and lift them above the land, stones of a crown, shining, sparkling, as an ensign, which is a banner.
It's language that is not only saying they're lifted off the ground, but that they are put on display, something to look at.
That's why Paul doesn't say they just go to heaven. Because this passage, has them put on display.

That imagery is also connected to 1 Corinthians 15.
That when Jesus comes back, People will be changed and made glorious. There's a few other passages that may have been on Paul's mind, like Daniel 12

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

So Paul's getting this from Old Testament scripture, that the resurrection body will be glorious, it'll shine like the stars.
People like to think Paul just got direct revelation left and right and Inspiration means he was being dictated word for word scripture by God.
But that's not what happens. Paul drew from the Old Testament, the Inspiration was guiding and expanding on what was already in scripture.
Mystery doesn't mean conjured out of the Aether and not in scripture. It means "this is in scripture but you guys overlook it, you don't get it"


Now.. I guess to finally make my point.. Revelation 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Who's sounding the trumpet, the Lord God, or an angel?

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So.. was Paul referring to the 7th trumpet of Revelation.. blown by an angel, referring to a book that wouldn't be written for decades, communicating to a church that wouldn't know what he was talking about for decades...

or was Paul referring to an Old Testament passage about the 2nd coming that people overlook and has God blowing the Trumpet, which Jesus referred to and said HE will blow the trumpet, in yet another point in His ministry, where Jesus declared that He is God?

 

[Jamdoc]

5thKingdom said:
That is spiritual language.
WHY in the world would you take it literally?




So you think that Jesus has a LITERAL SWORD that "proceeded OUT of his mouth"?
Really?

Rev_19:21
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.




Did YOU make that Biblical rule?
Do you really thing Jesus has a LITERAL SWORD proceeding OUT of His mouth?

Rev_19:21
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The bible explains its own symbols.
Ephesians 6

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hebrews 4

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The fact that the 'sword" proceeds from His MOUTH is the clue.

Why would you say the Anti-Christ does not "kill" the entire Church?
The Scripture teaches the opposite.


/

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Can't have anyone alive and remaining if Antichrist kills them all.

1 Corinthians 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul would be lying if nobody gets changed without dying. That can't happen if Antichrist kills them all.

Jesus Himself said in Matthew 24

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

He's not saying the elect will all be killed, but He'll cut the days short for the unbelievers who killed His elect.
He's saying that the days will be shortened for the elect's sake so that not all of them die.

That's part of where Paul gets the idea of brethren being alive at the time Jesus returns.

 

[5thKingdom]

The bible explains its own symbols.

As I have already shown you...
clearly it does NOT.

If you cannot understand the "sword" proceeding out of His Mouth is not literal,
then you cannot understand the spiritual language in Rev 9

Your argument that the Bible explains it's own symbols
does NOT apply in either case... so your argument is proven wrong.

It would be far easier, and more Biblical, for you to just concede the language in Rev 9
is spiritual language representing the Believers... since that language is USED in New Testament Scripture
to DESCRIBE the Believers. This is a fact that you REALLY should be familiar with.

The fact that the 'sword" proceeds from His MOUTH is the clue.

But now you MOVE the goalposts.

YOU said the Bible explains it's symbols...
in an attempt to DISMISS the spiritual language of Rev 9

Then I reply stating that is not true...
and I give you an example of the "sword"... which is NOT explained.

Now you want to say the "sword" is a CLUE...
then I respond by saying ALL the spiritual language of Rev 9 is also a CLUE
You cannot have it BOTH ways.

Can't have anyone alive and remaining if Antichrist kills them all.

That depends on WHAT the term "kill" means.


As I have already explained to you, the Bible speaks of saved Saints being "killed" in Christ.


(1) Likewise, the unsaved "tares" hearing the Gospel of the Locusts (the Last Saints)
they DESIRE to be "killed" (saved)... but that is not possible since salvation ENDS
when the Last Saint is "sealed" BEFORE the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast BEGINS.
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this Biblical fact... please read it carefully.


(2) You want to take "killed" literally when the passage (and related Scriptures) clearly show
the Last Saints (the Two Witnesses represent the Last Saints) are NOT "killed" during the Fourth Beast.
There are plenty of RELATED PASSAGES teaching the Last Saints are NOT "killed" during the Great Tribulation.


You cannot have it BOTH ways...
You cannot claim the word "killed" is literal death - when it is shown to be spiritual language.
WHY can I say that? Because the CONTEXT of the passage PROVES it is spiritual language


(1) First... the 3.5 "days" is not literal
The Bible speaks of the SAME TIME as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 years (42 months)
and 3.5 "watches of the night". So the 3.5 "days" is NOT a literal time.


(2) Secondly... tell me please,
WHAT in the world does "Sodom and Egypt" represent?
Clearly it is NOT a literal city... Clearly this is spiritual language.
Jesus was NOT crucified in Sodom or Egypt


(3) If their "dead bodies" lie in a SPIRITUAL CITY...
then WHY in the world would you image their "dead bodies" is not also spiritual language.
The CONTEXT demands it be understood as spiritual.


Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified.

1 Corinthians 15

Paul would be lying if nobody gets changed without dying. That can't happen if Antichrist kills them all.

(1) No... it would be GOD (not Paul) that is lying if nobody gets "changed".
Remember, Paul wrote under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
The Bible is the Word of God, not the word of Paul

(2) Secondly... the Anti-Christ could not possibly "kill all of them"
when there are RELATED passages showing the Saint LIVING throughout the Great Tribulation

Your theory is proven wrong by RELATED passages
you have not found "harmony of Scripture" so you have not found Biblical Truth

Jesus Himself said in Matthew 24
He's not saying the elect will all be killed, but He'll cut the days short for the unbelievers who killed His elect.
He's saying that the days will be shortened for the elect's sake so that not all of them die.

So... do you think the Anti-Christ (to use your words) "kills all of them"...
or do you think "days will be shortened for the elect's sake so that NOT all of them die"?
Which is it? You cannot have it BOTH ways.

That's part of where Paul gets the idea of brethren being alive at the time Jesus returns.

(1) First... Paul does not "get the idea"... that is ridiculous.
Paul writes under the influence of the Holy Spirit of God.
The Bible is the Word of God, not the word of Paul.


(2) Secondly... it seems you are arguing
(a) all the Great Tribulation Saints are "killed" by the Anti-Christ
(b) but some Great Tribulation Saints are NOT killed

Which is it?
You are confusing me.


/

 

[Jamdoc]

As I have already shown you...
clearly it does NOT.

If you cannot understand the "sword" proceeding out of His Mouth is not literal,
then you cannot understand the spiritual language in Rev 9

Your argument that the Bible explains it's own symbols
does NOT apply in either case... so your argument is proven wrong.

It would be far easier, and more Biblical, for you to just concede the language in Rev 9
is spiritual language representing the Believers... since that language is USED in New Testament Scripture
to DESCRIBE the Believers. This is a fact that you REALLY should be familiar with.





But now you MOVE the goalposts.

YOU said the Bible explains it's symbols...
in an attempt to DISMISS the spiritual language of Rev 9

Then I reply stating that is not true...
and I give you an example of the "sword"... which is NOT explained.

Now you want to say the "sword" is a CLUE...
then I respond by saying ALL the spiritual language of Rev 9 is also a CLUE
You cannot have it BOTH ways.

No, my point is that if the bible presents a symbol it does not leave you to make up your own symbol meanings, it explains them. It is either directly explained by an angel or Jesus/God in the text, saying "this is this" or using similes or metaphors which are contained in the text directly.
Or it refers back to previous scripture that the Holy Spirit will bring to remembrance when you see it. In the case of the sword coming from the mouth, it's referring back to passages mentioning the Word of God being the sword of the spirit.

However in a lot of the visions John just wrote down what he saw in language he knew how to express what he saw. In Revelation 9's case,, he saw beings that the prophet Joel also wrote about in Joel 2. Compare the 2 passages.. and.... if you look at imagery of things from ancient babylon... well, you'll see beings that look like what John described. It's likely those things actually exist, if Joel and John write about them being loosed.

That depends on WHAT the term "kill" means.


As I have already explained to you, the Bible speaks of saved Saints being "killed" in Christ.


(1) Likewise, the unsaved "tares" hearing the Gospel of the Locusts (the Last Saints)
they DESIRE to be "killed" (saved)... but that is not possible since salvation ENDS
when the Last Saint is "sealed" BEFORE the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast BEGINS.
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this Biblical fact... please read it carefully.


(2) You want to take "killed" literally when the passage (and related Scriptures) clearly show
the Last Saints (the Two Witnesses represent the Last Saints) are NOT "killed" during the Fourth Beast.
There are plenty of RELATED PASSAGES teaching the Last Saints are NOT "killed" during the Great Tribulation.


You cannot have it BOTH ways...
You cannot claim the word "killed" is literal death - when it is shown to be spiritual language.
WHY can I say that? Because the CONTEXT of the passage PROVES it is spiritual language


(1) First... the 3.5 "days" is not literal
The Bible speaks of the SAME TIME as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 years (42 months)
and 3.5 "watches of the night". So the 3.5 "days" is NOT a literal time.


(2) Secondly... tell me please,
WHAT in the world does "Sodom and Egypt" represent?
Clearly it is NOT a literal city... Clearly this is spiritual language.
Jesus was NOT crucified in Sodom or Egypt


(3) If their "dead bodies" lie in a SPIRITUAL CITY...
then WHY in the world would you image their "dead bodies" is not also spiritual language.
The CONTEXT demands it be understood as spiritual.


Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified.





(1) No... it would be GOD (not Paul) that is lying if nobody gets "changed".
Remember, Paul wrote under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
The Bible is the Word of God, not the word of Paul

(2) Secondly... the Anti-Christ could not possibly "kill all of them"
when there are RELATED passages showing the Saint LIVING throughout the Great Tribulation

Your theory is proven wrong by RELATED passages
you have not found "harmony of Scripture" so you have not found Biblical Truth





So... do you think the Anti-Christ (to use your words) "kills all of them"...
or do you think "days will be shortened for the elect's sake so that NOT all of them die"?
Which is it? You cannot have it BOTH ways.





(1) First... Paul does not "get the idea"... that is ridiculous.
Paul writes under the influence of the Holy Spirit of God.
The Bible is the Word of God, not the word of Paul.


(2) Secondly... it seems you are arguing
(a) all the Great Tribulation Saints are "killed" by the Anti-Christ
(b) but some Great Tribulation Saints are NOT killed

Which is it?
You are confusing me.


/

"Tribulation Saints" is a made up doctrine forced to be made up by the other made up doctrine of pretribulation rapture. The bible does not teach tribulation saints.
The bible teaches Jesus comes back, there is a rapture, and afterwards, there is a famine of hearing the words of the Lord (see Amos 8), and Jesus does not spend the last part of Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 warning about being ready because if you're not ready you "go through the 7 year tribulation" (also a farce of a concept, that ignores what Jesus says about tribulation), but much worse. the first parable? about the good and wicked servant? The wicked servant is cut into pieces and cast with the heretics, it's condemnation. Jesus ate and drank with winebibbers and tax collectors, why's it such a great sin for the wicked servant to be doing so? Because of when he's doing it. It's during Great Tribulation, he took the mark of the beast (only way to be eating and drinking with the drunken in that time), and joined in persecuting his fellowservants. Look at what's said "my master delays his coming". He expected his master to return, his master did not return when expected, and so he fell away.

What do you think will happen to some pretribulationists if they find themselves confronted with great tribulation hmm? Will they keep strong in the faith? I think many will fall away, because Jesus warns about it.

The 5 virgins are not told "come back later" Jesus denies knowing them, it's not "they go through the tribulation" it's "they're refused and condemned.

There's no "people come to faith after the rapture"

No.. it's just pretribulationism is a house built on sand.. and when that house falls, great was the fall of it.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The two candlesticks "standing before the God of the earth" in Revelation 11:4 were meant to represent two individual members of the high priesthood.

Back in the OT, God's instructions to Ezekiel limited the high priesthood to the sons of Zadok who had remained faithful. These only out of the Levites were going to be allowed access to the "most holy place" - the Holy of holies of the "inner court" - which only a high priest could enter. Concerning these Zadok family members, God said "...they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and THEY SHALL STAND BEFORE ME to offer unto me the fat and the blood." (Ezekiel 44:15)

In the post-exilic return, Joshua son of Jehosedech, at his being given the charge of the high priesthood, was described as "STANDING BEFORE THE ANGEL OF THE LORD" (Zechariah 3:1). This same description was given in Zechariah 4:12-14 of the two "olive branches" that Zechariah saw in the vision, who were identified as being "the two anointed ones that STAND BY THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH." These were two high priests, anointed to serve in that role.

So when Revelation 11:4 describes the two witnesses as "STANDING BEFORE THE GOD OF THE EARTH", this was meant to describe two individuals who had served in the high priesthood role in Israel. And there were exactly two of these high priests who were murdered in the streets of Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 period, who were refused burial of their dead bodies, and whose enemies rejoiced over their death. Josephus recorded some of these two high priests' public witness to the people while trying to maintain order in the city. That was before the Zealots arranged to have them murdered during the Idumean attack on Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

MOREOVER...
The BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation... the DURATION of Daniel's Abomination
is 2300 days (literal "evenings/mornings") which is 6.4 years..
and THEN the "Sanctuary is cleansed"... how long does THAT take?

How long will it take to build this "Sanctuary" that does not exist yet?

It took that long at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes. Jesus will not need that time at all. The AoD is only 42 months according to John in Revelation 13. Daniel's AoD was in 167BC. Satan's AoD is in the near future.

 

[RoadoftheGypsy]

In Matthew 24:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 the holy place is also not referring to any physical temple structure, but to the church.

Old Testament faithful:
City: Jerusalem.

New Testament faithful: City New Jerusalem.

Old Testament harlot: Jerusalem that was destroyed.
New Testament harlot: Babylon the Great that is going to be destroyed.

Old: Wrath of God came upon Jerusalem.
New: Wrath of God will come upon Babylon the Great.

Old: Jesus told the saints to flee Judea (Jerusalem was its capital city).
New: Jesus tells the saints to come out of Babylon the Great.
.

Hello friend. I found this part of your post amazing and especially the typology between Old and New. I have often thought that 2 Thess 2:4 is speaking about the CHURCH as the temple (body of Christ, Jesus said His body was the temple) however what always led me away from that belief was Matthew 24:15 cause it says abomination of desolation and heed to what DANIEL said. And daniel mentions nothing about a spiritual church temple but an actual sanctuary with animal sacrifices that shall cease etc. So is there anything that leads you to believe Matthew 24:15 is about the church? Something in the Bible?

I honestly believe it would make more sense if its about the church, because a rebuilt temple with animal sacrifices by antichrist jews can hardly be called "temple of God" in 2023.

 

[Zao is life]

Hello friend. I found this part of your post amazing and especially the typology between Old and New. I have often thought that 2 Thess 2:4 is speaking about the CHURCH as the temple (body of Christ, Jesus said His body was the temple) however what always led me away from that belief was Matthew 24:15 cause it says abomination of desolation and heed to what DANIEL said. And daniel mentions nothing about a spiritual church temple but an actual sanctuary with animal sacrifices that shall cease etc. So is there anything that leads you to believe Matthew 24:15 is about the church? Something in the Bible?

I honestly believe it would make more sense if its about the church, because a rebuilt temple with animal sacrifices by antichrist jews can hardly be called "temple of God" in 2023.

Hello RotG

Exactly.

Remember that there was no New Testament temple in Daniel's day or in the days of Anotiochus IV - but what Antiochus IV did in the Old Testament temple make his actions the type of what will be done by the man of sin in the New Testament temple.

There is a lot that leads me to believe that Matthew 24:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is about the church:

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (the man of sin seating himself up in the sanctuary of God) uses the Greek word naós, which is the only New Testament word used whenever God's sanctuary is being spoken about (the actual sanctuary of God, i.e the holy place).

The word used for the entire Jerusalem temple structure is hierón, but the word naós is only used in reference to the actual sanctuary in the temple complex:

[*StrongsGreek*] 02411
ἱερόν hierón, hee-er-on' neuter of 2413;
a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

[*StrongsGreek*] 03485
NAO/S ναός naós nah-os' from a primary ναίω naíō, (to dwell);
a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple. Compare 2411.

Note: Jesus was not a priest in terms of Moses' law and was not allowed into the naós (the holy places, where only the priests were allowed). So it makes sense that without exception, whenever you read of Jesus entering the temple in Jerusalem, the Greek word employed for "temple", is hierón.

The word hierón is never used in reference to the naós (the actual sanctuary in the temple complex), nor the body of Christ, nor the church, nor the temple in heaven:

Here are the verses talking about the hieron in Jerusalem:-

Matthew 4:5; Matthew 12:5-6; Matthew 21:12; Matthew 21:14-15; Matthew 21:23; Matthew 24:1; Matthew 26:55; Mark 11:11 & 15-16; Mark 11:27; Mark 12:35; Mark 13:1 & 3; Mark 14:49; Luke 2:27, 37 & 46; Luke 4:9; Luke 18:10; Luke 19:45 & 47; Luke 20:1 & 5; Luke 21:37-38; Luke 22:52-53; John 2:14-15; John 5:14; John 7:14 & 28; John 8:2, 20 & 59; John 10:23; John 11:56; John 18:20.

--- After the tearing of the veil in the Jerusalem temple ---

Luke 24:53; Acts 2:46; Acts 3:1-3, 8 & 10; Acts 4:1; Acts 5:20-21 & 24-25; Acts 5:42; Acts 21:26-30; Acts 22:17; Acts 24:6, 12 & 18; Acts 25:8; Acts 26:21; 1 Corinthians 9:13.

The naós (holy place and holiest place) was separated from the rest of the temple complex by a wall. Only the priests were permitted in the naós (holy place & sanctuary), and only the High Priest was allowed access once a year into the "holy of holies".

There was also a thick and heavy material veil separating the holy court (the room of the holy sanctuary) from the most holy place or "holy of holies", dividing the holy court and holy of holies into two separate rooms inside the inner enclosure.

IMPORTANT: The last time that the New Testament uses the word naós in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, is in the verses in the Gospels which tell about the tearing of the veil between that holy place / holy of holies, which occurred when Jesus died on the cross.

Naos in the Jerusalem temple:

-- in the temple complex --

Luke 1:9 & 21-22; Matthew 23:16-17 & 21; Matthew 23:35; Matthew 27:5.

-- Body of Christ --
(John 2:19 & 21; Matthew 26:61; Matthew 27:40; Mark 14:58; Mark 15:29)

-- The veil torn -- *
(naós)
(Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45.)

After the verses talking about the tearing of the veil in the temple, the first time the word naos is used again, is in Acts:

Acts 7:48a
But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

After this, whenever the word naos is used in reference to the temple of God, it's talking about:

-- the church & the temple in heaven --
(naós)

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:1-2; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22

* Only once in the New Testament is naós NOT referring to the sanctuary of God: Acts 19:24.

Another important fact: There are no verses in the Revelation where Babylon the Great, or the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out are called "the holy city", but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times: Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

Revelation 11:2 is talking about the holy city. The temple that Revelation 11:1 is referring to is the naós - it uses the word naós for "temple".

The other city referred to in Revelation chapter 11, is referred to as a city that is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

So 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is written after the tearing of the veil - and it uses the word naos for temple (not hieron).

 

[Zao is life]

Hello friend. I found this part of your post amazing and especially the typology between Old and New. I have often thought that 2 Thess 2:4 is speaking about the CHURCH as the temple (body of Christ, Jesus said His body was the temple) however what always led me away from that belief was Matthew 24:15 cause it says abomination of desolation and heed to what DANIEL said. And daniel mentions nothing about a spiritual church temple but an actual sanctuary with animal sacrifices that shall cease etc. So is there anything that leads you to believe Matthew 24:15 is about the church? Something in the Bible?

I honestly believe it would make more sense if its about the church, because a rebuilt temple with animal sacrifices by antichrist jews can hardly be called "temple of God" in 2023.

Replied in Post #51. This is about the first post you responded to: I may have made a mistake in saying that Antiochus IV was Daniel 7's 4th kingdom's king - because he rose from out of the original four -heads' of the 3rd kingdom - but his actions make him a type or forerunner of the 4th king/dom of Daniel 7 that will be destroyed by Christ, and of Revelation 13:1-10, and of the man of sin.

 

[RoadoftheGypsy]

So when Revelation 11:4 describes the two witnesses as "STANDING BEFORE THE GOD OF THE EARTH", this was meant to describe two individuals who had served in the high priesthood role in Israel. And there were exactly two of these high priests who were murdered in the streets of Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 period, who were refused burial of their dead bodies, and whose enemies rejoiced over their death. Josephus recorded some of these two high priests' public witness to the people while trying to maintain order in the city. That was before the Zealots arranged to have them murdered during the Idumean attack on Jerusalem.

SOURCE from Josephus?? Never read this

 

[RoadoftheGypsy]

Hello RotG

Exactly.

Remember that there was no New Testament temple in Daniel's day or in the days of Anotiochus IV - but what Antiochus IV did in the Old Testament temple make his actions the type of what will be done by the man of sin in the New Testament temple.

There is a lot that leads me to believe that Matthew 24:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is about the church:

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (the man of sin seating himself up in the sanctuary of God) uses the Greek word naós, which is the only New Testament word used whenever God's sanctuary is being spoken about (the actual sanctuary of God, i.e the holy place).

The word used for the entire Jerusalem temple structure is hierón, but the word naós is only used in reference to the actual sanctuary in the temple complex:

[*StrongsGreek*] 02411
ἱερόν hierón, hee-er-on' neuter of 2413;
a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

[*StrongsGreek*] 03485
NAO/S ναός naós nah-os' from a primary ναίω naíō, (to dwell);
a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple. Compare 2411.

Note: Jesus was not a priest in terms of Moses' law and was not allowed into the naós (the holy places, where only the priests were allowed). So it makes sense that without exception, whenever you read of Jesus entering the temple in Jerusalem, the Greek word employed for "temple", is hierón.

The word hierón is never used in reference to the naós (the actual sanctuary in the temple complex), nor the body of Christ, nor the church, nor the temple in heaven:

Here are the verses talking about the hieron in Jerusalem:-

Matthew 4:5; Matthew 12:5-6; Matthew 21:12; Matthew 21:14-15; Matthew 21:23; Matthew 24:1; Matthew 26:55; Mark 11:11 & 15-16; Mark 11:27; Mark 12:35; Mark 13:1 & 3; Mark 14:49; Luke 2:27, 37 & 46; Luke 4:9; Luke 18:10; Luke 19:45 & 47; Luke 20:1 & 5; Luke 21:37-38; Luke 22:52-53; John 2:14-15; John 5:14; John 7:14 & 28; John 8:2, 20 & 59; John 10:23; John 11:56; John 18:20.

--- After the tearing of the veil in the Jerusalem temple ---

Luke 24:53; Acts 2:46; Acts 3:1-3, 8 & 10; Acts 4:1; Acts 5:20-21 & 24-25; Acts 5:42; Acts 21:26-30; Acts 22:17; Acts 24:6, 12 & 18; Acts 25:8; Acts 26:21; 1 Corinthians 9:13.

The naós (holy place and holiest place) was separated from the rest of the temple complex by a wall. Only the priests were permitted in the naós (holy place & sanctuary), and only the High Priest was allowed access once a year into the "holy of holies".

There was also a thick and heavy material veil separating the holy court (the room of the holy sanctuary) from the most holy place or "holy of holies", dividing the holy court and holy of holies into two separate rooms inside the inner enclosure.

IMPORTANT: The last time that the New Testament uses the word naós in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, is in the verses in the Gospels which tell about the tearing of the veil between that holy place / holy of holies, which occurred when Jesus died on the cross.

Naos in the Jerusalem temple:

-- in the temple complex --

Luke 1:9 & 21-22; Matthew 23:16-17 & 21; Matthew 23:35; Matthew 27:5.

-- Body of Christ --
(John 2:19 & 21; Matthew 26:61; Matthew 27:40; Mark 14:58; Mark 15:29)

-- The veil torn -- *
(naós)
(Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45.)

After the verses talking about the tearing of the veil in the temple, the first time the word naos is used again, is in Acts:

Acts 7:48a
But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

After this, whenever the word naos is used in reference to the temple of God, it's talking about:

-- the church & the temple in heaven --
(naós)

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:1-2; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22

* Only once in the New Testament is naós NOT referring to the sanctuary of God: Acts 19:24.

Another important fact: There are no verses in the Revelation where Babylon the Great, or the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out are called "the holy city", but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times: Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

Revelation 11:2 is talking about the holy city. The temple that Revelation 11:1 is referring to is the naós - it uses the word naós for "temple".

The other city referred to in Revelation chapter 11, is referred to as a city that is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

So 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is written after the tearing of the veil - and it uses the word naos for temple (not hieron).

WOW! Amazing knowledge you have. Thank you. Are you amillennial or premillennial? What do you believe about Revelation 20? I am convinced the TEMPLE in 2 Thess 2:4 is definitely the CHURCH

 

[Zao is life]

WOW! Amazing knowledge you have. Thank you. Are you amillennial or premillennial? What do you believe about Revelation 20? I am convinced the TEMPLE in 2 Thess 2:4 is definitely the CHURCH

I'm Premil - but my view is very different to most Premil views also.

That's the short answer. You never asked me for a long answer containing lists of scriptures and that makes me happy too

 

[RoadoftheGypsy]

I'm Premil - but my view is very different to most Premil views also.

That's the short answer. You never asked me for a long answer containing lists of scriptures and that makes me happy too

You shouldn't of let that cat out the bag. Now give me the long answer

 

[Zao is life]

You shouldn't of let that cat out the bag. Now give me the long answer

LOL. First tell me whether you are Amil or Premil, then it's fair .

 

[Zao is life]

You shouldn't of let that cat out the bag. Now give me the long answer

OK researching what posts you like (not mine) and the things you've said in other posts has answered my question. (That was easy, it's like searching the scriptures to find out if something is the case).

Here's my "Premil" (belief that the millennium is literal) view, which I gave to you in your thread:

Undecided in eschatology

Hello friends this is my first post here and I registered specifically to say this: I am UNDECIDED in my eschatology, I see both premillennialism and amillennialism have their strong points. But I feel like both sides have certain issues, lets start with Amillennialism: +Fits all the end...

www.christianforums.com

But the other scriptures I would quote in support of a literal thousand years to follow the Lord's return are in other posts of mine somewhere in this board. They involve scriptures that show that Satan is not bound, and that zao (alive in a body) always and only means alive in a body, and anastasis always and only means bodily resurrection (so Revelation 20:4-6 is not talking about a so-called "spiritual resurrection" or the new birth when we are made alive by the Spirit).

Revelation 20:1-6 is pretty easy. No one can be beheaded for refusal to worship the beast and his image before the beast has risen from the pit and those who refuse to worship him are killed, and Satan cannot be bound while he is so active that saints are repeatedly warned to put on the whole armor of God etc etc, and to resist the devil, nor while he is giving the beast that will rise from the pit his seat, power and great authority.

 

[RoadoftheGypsy]

LOL. First tell me whether you are Amil or Premil, then it's fair .

I have a thread about it, I am premill until proven otherwise.

 

[Zao is life]

I have a thread about it, I am premill until proven otherwise.

I already gave you the long, long answer in your thread where I listed all the New Testament verses using the words zao and anastasis.

@RoadoftheGypsy By the way (as far as you saying I have 'amazing knowledge'). God's not interested in anyone's 'knowledge' (lawlessless is lovelessness, not lack of knowledge).

I've just taken the time to search the scriptures diligently to ascertain what the authors were actually saying (knowing that a lot gets lost in translation between the Greek and Swedish. Or Scandinavian.

I mean, English.

I mean, German.

I mean, French (especially French).

LOL.