Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop Refuses to Bake a Birthday Cake for Transgendered Person

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Why do your supposed freedoms trump someone else’s?

Christians and Christian sinners are free to get a birthday cake. Transgender and gay people should be free to get a Birthday cake. It has nothing to do with my freedoms.

 

[Ana the Ist]

so no. Nothing to back it up. Thanks

I didn't think it was a serious question....did you want examples?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I was on Phillips's side when he refused to make the wedding cake. Marriage was established by God and is clearly supported in the Bible for the purpose of building a family with a male and a female as partners.

However, this time it seems different to me, maybe because the whole thing is so sad, people going to such extremes to change themselves into someone they can like, and then so much of the time it doesn't work.

In my opinion, Phillips should have just ignored her goading because that is exactly what she was and is doing. But then she may not win her civil case. Colorado dropped their case against Phillips in this instance and he dropped his against Colorado, she's on her own. I wonder if he can get a jury trial.

Just about everything is forbidden in the Bible.

I'm certain there's a passage in one of those long old testament lists of laws that says "no wearing the other sex's clothes". If it were me....I'd just make the cake....I don't care.

However, this man has some deeply held religious beliefs. He's not trying to make anyone's life hard....after his wedding cake lawsuit he decided it was better to just not do wedding cakes. That's about 40% of his business.

I can guess from that alone he takes his beliefs quite seriously and even if I disagree he has a right to them.

I was on the other side of this when I thought he was just asked for an ambiguous birthday cake.....then this person threw the extra meaning into it to just take a shot at him. He shouldn't have to do it.

I wouldn't make a Jewish person bake a Nazi cake celebrating the Holocaust.

I wouldn't require a Muslim to draw the prophet Muhammad on their cakes.

And frankly, I doubt most people here arguing against this Christian would. Because he's a Christian and associated with the political right....they treat him as less worthy of respect or dignity.

 

[Diamond7]

He should have the right to refuse service to anyone.

They can not refuse to sell her a cake. They can only refuse to personalize it. There was a high school girl thrown out of her high school because she had a multi-colored birthday cake. It is not clear if she just thought it was pretty or if she knew what it represented.

 

[Diamond7]

Just about everything is forbidden in the Bible.

We can NOT give sinner approval for their sin. God will hold us accountable. They want our approval but we simply can not do that for them.

Romans 1:32 "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

 

[SilverBear]

I was on Phillips's side when he refused to make the wedding cake. Marriage was established by God and is clearly supported in the Bible for the purpose of building a family with a male and a female as partners.

Since God doesn't approve of non Christians Would this make it all right for the baker to discriminate against Jews or Buddhists ?

 

[SilverBear]

I wouldn't make a Jewish person bake a Nazi cake celebrating the Holocaust.

it's not about the message of the cake its about the customer and discrimination.
If that Jewish baker doesn't make cakes celebrating the holocaust then there would be no expectation that they would or could be compelled to make one for a customer. But if that same baker makes cakes celebrating the holocaust but refuses to do so for anyone who is black then it becomes a case of discrimination.
If a baker does not make wedding cakes for anyone then he/she can't be compelled to bake a cake for a minority couple. IF that baker does however make wedding cakes but refuses to do so when the couple is a minority then it is a case of discrimination.

 

[Ana the Ist]

it's not about the message of the cake its about the customer and discrimination.

This is why you aren't a lawyer lol.

If that Jewish baker doesn't make cakes celebrating the holocaust

Well let's assume that like the defendant, he makes and decorates cakes. Period.

then there would be no expectation that they would or could be compelled to make one for a customer.

That is essentially your argument though....that he should be compelled.

But if that same baker makes cakes celebrating the holocaust but refuses to do so for anyone who is black then it becomes a case of discrimination.

Right....not relevant at all but it's fun to watch you try to reason this out.

If a baker does not make wedding cakes for anyone then he/she can't be compelled to bake a cake for a minority couple. IF that baker does however make wedding cakes but refuses to do so when the couple is a minority then it is a case of discrimination.

The baker is declaring his right to religious freedom and does not feel that he should be compelled to help or participate in the celebration of something against his beliefs.

The trans person is just looking to victimize this guy with a discrimination lawsuit.

 

[Ana the Ist]

We can NOT give sinner approval for their sin. God will hold us accountable. They want our approval but we simply can not do that for them.

Romans 1:32 "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

Right....sounds real fun.

 

[Tuur]

If business owners had not used this supposed "right" to refuse service to people for having black skin we might have a better argument for keeping it as a right (in general).

However, not having access to things like gas stations, banks, hotels, places to eat and such is quite obviously an undue burden on the people such racists didn't want to serve.

Now that we're arguing about decorated cakes I explicitly think it's a stupid argument.

It's best to leave people who can't help but be angry all the time to fight that one out.

Again, we are ultimately at "The ends justifies the means." The desired end, abolishing Segregation, came at the expense of a private business in the US to buy and sell to whom they pleased. The thing, though, about a right that everyone seems to miss is that it's also a right to make bad decisions. Segregation ran counter to Paul's admonition that in Christ there is no racial or class difference among believers, and as such always bothered me and I'm glad segregation is gone, but now a business owner has one less freedom.

Fast forward a few decades. Now Christian business owners are harassed for not compromising their beliefs, and we see all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify a restriction in one case but not in another. Ultimately, though, the right of a business owner to do business with whom they please is long gone in the US, with all the ramifications thereof. And we are told this lack of freedom is good and proper.

We're told it would be good and proper if there weren't a lot of freedoms. There doesn't seem to be a lack of support to curtail them. Maybe people don't really want freedom.

 

[SilverBear]

This is why you aren't a lawyer lol.




Well let's assume that like the defendant, he makes and decorates cakes. Period.

No, you used the specific example so you get to live with your example.

That is essentially your argument though....that he should be compelled.

This is why you aren't a lawyer, you don't pay attention. Or, more likely, you do but prefer to misrepresent what people say.

Right....not relevant at all but it's fun to watch you try to reason this out.

It is relevant, you just don't like it

.



The baker is declaring his right to religious freedom and does not feel that he should be compelled to help or participate in the celebration of something against his beliefs.

The trans person is just looking to victimize this guy with a discrimination lawsuit.

He chose to break the law and discriminate. He isn't a victim.

 

[SilverBear]

Again, we are ultimately at "The ends justifies the means." The desired end, abolishing Segregation, came at the expense of a private business in the US to buy and sell to whom they pleased. The thing, though, about a right that everyone seems to miss is that it's also a right to make bad decisions. Segregation ran counter to Paul's admonition that in Christ there is no racial or class difference among believers, and as such always bothered me and I'm glad segregation is gone, but now a business owner has one less freedom.

Fast forward a few decades. Now Christian business owners are harassed for not compromising their beliefs, and we see all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify a restriction in one case but not in another. Ultimately, though, the right of a business owner to do business with whom they please is long gone in the US, with all the ramifications thereof. And we are told this lack of freedom is good and proper.

We're told it would be good and proper if there weren't a lot of freedoms. There doesn't seem to be a lack of support to curtail them. Maybe people don't really want freedom.

I can't find the right to hate anywhere in the constitution, maybe you could point it out to me.

 

[variant]

Again, we are ultimately at "The ends justifies the means." The desired end, abolishing Segregation, came at the expense of a private business in the US to buy and sell to whom they pleased. The thing, though, about a right that everyone seems to miss is that it's also a right to make bad decisions. Segregation ran counter to Paul's admonition that in Christ there is no racial or class difference among believers, and as such always bothered me and I'm glad segregation is gone, but now a business owner has one less freedom.

No it was simply a contest of different rights.

The right that people wanted to enforce was their right to use their property rights to actively make other people's lives harder literally everywhere in society for no rational reason.

Your bad decisions don't have to be respected when their intent is to harm others. That is why that right doesn't exist in that way, it was horridly abused to harm other rights people clearly ought to have.

Fast forward a few decades. Now Christian business owners are harassed for not compromising their beliefs, and we see all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify a restriction in one case but not in another. Ultimately, though, the right of a business owner to do business with whom they please is long gone in the US, with all the ramifications thereof. And we are told this lack of freedom is good and proper.

We're told it would be good and proper if there weren't a lot of freedoms. There doesn't seem to be a lack of support to curtail them. Maybe people don't really want freedom.

This is just whining about society being complex and dealing with differing points of view.

 

[Hank77]

Since God doesn't approve of non Christians Would this make it all right for the baker to discriminate against Jews or Buddhists ?

He wasn't discriminating against a person or group of persons, he was discriminating against an action taken by the person and refusing to help them celebrate that action.

 

[Hank77]

If that Jewish baker doesn't make cakes celebrating the holocaust then there would be no expectation that they would or could be compelled to make one for a customer.

Phillips doesn't make transition celebration cakes for anyone, why should he have to for this transwoman lawyer?

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, you used the specific example so you get to live with your example.

Ok...I'll gladly go back to my example of a Jewish baker who gets a request for a cake decorated with swastikas for Hitler's birthday.

This is why you aren't a lawyer, you don't pay attention. Or, more likely, you do but prefer to misrepresent what people say.

Hilarious.

It is relevant, you just don't like it

Not even a little.

He chose to break the law and discriminate. He isn't a victim.

He's the only victim here if there is one.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Colorado baker loses appeal over transgender birthday cake

The Christian baker, Jack Phillips, maintains that the cakes he creates are a form of speech and plans to appeal.

www.nbcnews.com

He initially agreed to bake the birthday cake, pink with blue frosting, but then reneged when the customer said she intended to also celebrate her transition from male to female.



The Colorado Human Rights Commission has not joined the lawsuit.

Scardina has harassed him for a decade, once ordering a cake with a working black p#nis apparatus on it, offering to provide it if he didn't have one, knowing full well he was going to object. Nothing Scardina is doing is in good faith, and this person needs to be removed from his practice of harassment:

"Lest anyone wonder whether this request was made in good faith, consider that this same person apparently made a number of requests to Masterpiece Cakeshop. In September 2017, a caller asked Phillips to design a birthday cake for Satan that would feature an image of Satan smoking marijuana. The name “Scardina” appeared on the caller identification. A few days earlier, a person had emailed Jack asking for a cake with a similar theme — except featuring “an upside-down cross, under the head of Lucifer.” This same emailer reminded Phillips that “religion is a protected class.”


On the very day that Phillips won his case at the Supreme Court, a person emailed with yet another deliberately offensive design request:


I’m thinking a three-tiered white cake. Cheesecake frosting. And the topper should be a large figure of Satan, licking a 9″ black (d*ldo). I would like the d*ldo to be an actual working model, that can be turned on before we unveil the cake. I can provide it for you if you don’t have the means to procure one yourself.

 

[DaisyDay]

Haven't seen it. She got a statue?

It's actually quite different...."give me a statue honoring Ruth Bader Ginsburg" is a request allowing for both artistic expression and an opportunity to refuse.


Give me a statue of a little old lady in a robe with a pitchfork is a very different request.....especially when you wait until later to clarify its about RBG.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Phillips doesn't make transition celebration cakes for anyone, why should he have to for this transwoman lawyer?

He wasn't asked to make a "transition celebration cake." He was asked to make a blue and pink cake, which was a standard (i.e. non-custom) design he offered to everybody. It was only after the customer communicated her personal interpretation of that design that he declined. If you agree to sell a product to Group X, but not Group Y, then you're discriminating against the customer, not declining to make a product because you find the product inherently objectionable.

 

[DaisyDay]

Scardina has harassed him for a decade, once ordering a cake with a working black p#nis apparatus on it, offering to provide it if he didn't have one, knowing full well he was going to object. Nothing Scardina is doing is in good faith, and this person needs to be removed from his practice of harassment:

"Lest anyone wonder whether this request was made in good faith, consider that this same person apparently made a number of requests to Masterpiece Cakeshop. In September 2017, a caller asked Phillips to design a birthday cake for Satan that would feature an image of Satan smoking marijuana. The name “Scardina” appeared on the caller identification. A few days earlier, a person had emailed Jack asking for a cake with a similar theme — except featuring “an upside-down cross, under the head of Lucifer.” This same emailer reminded Phillips that “religion is a protected class.”


On the very day that Phillips won his case at the Supreme Court, a person emailed with yet another deliberately offensive design request:


I’m thinking a three-tiered white cake. Cheesecake frosting. And the topper should be a large figure of Satan, licking a 9″ black (d*ldo). I would like the d*ldo to be an actual working model, that can be turned on before we unveil the cake. I can provide it for you if you don’t have the means to procure one yourself.

Deliberately offensive designs are one thing, but a pink birthday cake with blue frosting is quite another.