Was Jesus born in September?

[Andrewn]

Jesus was circumcised when he was 8 days old. Mary was purified when he was 40 days old, then the family returned to Nazareth. Luke 2 So where do you fit the wise men and the flight to Egypt into that timeframe?

Where do You fit the wise men visit and the flight to Egypt into that time frame?

 

[David Kent]

Where do You fit the wise men visit and the flight to Egypt into that time frame?

That is what I asked you.

 

[Andrewn]

That is what I asked you.

"It seems to me that the most likely scenario is that Jesus was born around 6 B.C., the wise men (by their own account) arrived in Jerusalem two years later in 4 B.C., and in that same year Joseph, Mary, and Jesus fled to Egypt, Herod died, and they returned."

How long did Jesus live in Egypt?

"It is estimated that the whole journey from Bethlehem to the return to Nazareth lasted over three years. They had covered approximately 1242.80 miles."

Flight into Egypt : University of Dayton, Ohio

 

[David Kent]

Thanks, I had never considered the difficulties of reconciling the two accounts. I will look at it again, and perhaps post later. However it seems that the 12 days of Christmas are completely false.

 

[ewq1938]

"It seems to me that the most likely scenario is that Jesus was born around 6 B.C., the wise men (by their own account) arrived in Jerusalem two years later in 4 B.C., and in that same year Joseph, Mary, and Jesus fled to Egypt, Herod died, and they returned."

There is nothing about arriving two years later. They saw the star which meant Jesus was born and came to worship him. There is no reason to believe it took two years to travel there.

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
Mat 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
Mat 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Mat 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
Mat 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
Mat 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Herod killed children ages 2 and under but he didn't know when Christ was born. The fact that he wanted newborns killed also shows he thought Christ was possibly newborn but made sure just in case to kill up to 2 years old. So that is children 1 day old on up to 2 years. If it took the magi two years to travel from the birth to arriving then Herod would not have needed to kill children under the age of 1 or 1 and a half since they would have been born after Christ.

 

[Andrewn]

Herod killed children ages 2 and under but he didn't know when Christ was born. The fact that he wanted newborns killed also shows he thought Christ was possibly newborn but made sure just in case to kill up to 2 years old. So that is children 1 day old on up to 2 years. If it took the magi two years to travel from the birth to arriving then Herod would not have needed to kill children under the age of 1 or 1 and a half since they would have been born after Christ.

It's difficult to explain the reason for Herod killing infants 1 day old on up to 2 years. It’s clear that the Wise Men arriving 12 days after Jesus’ birth, according to tradition, is incorrect. The timing does not fit because had the Wise Men arrived prior to the dedication at the Temple, Mary would have offered a lamb, not the alternative offering of a bird (the offering of one who could not afford a lamb).

 

[Deafsilence]

Jesus couldn't be born in September. The math doesn't work out to that.

Let's remember that Luke 1 shows us that Zaharias was serving during the Day of Atonement. We know this because there was nobody else allowed in the Holy Place during this time and the Multitude was outside waiting.

Lev 16:17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

They couldn't send anyone else in because Zacharias was in the Temple performing the service. We can know when this is because the Talmud tells us that the First Course was serving during the destruction of the temple on the 9th of Av in 70 AD. That corresponds to the 9th day of the 5th Lunar Month. The Sabbaths were based on a Lunar Calendar, and there were 49 per year regardless if it was a leap year or pregnant year. We can then go back in time and follows the courses because they would run from Sabbath to Sabbath. A Sabbath was always on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of the Lunar Month. Going back to find when the course of Abia occurred on the 2nd week of the 7th month we have the following years:

69 AD
45 AD
21 AD
4 BC

Most of the early Church Fathers believed that Jesus was born in 3-2 BC. From the statements in Luke, we can conclude that Jesus was born in 3 BC. He would likely have been born at the Feast of Lights/Dedication on or around 2 December of 3 BC.

 

[The Liturgist]

That is what I read many people think. Clearly he was not born in late December. The Bible, which gives us no information about the weather in Bethlehem, is clear that shepherds were at the manger with their sheep. Mary rode on a donkey. The Magi rode on camels and donkeys to the manger. Knowing all this, is it likely Jesus was born in the late summer or early fall?

I don’t see why any of this is contrary to a December birth. Israel is a warmer country than say, Sweden, and even in Northern Scandinavia the Sami people, or Lapplanders, who herd reindeer, historically stayed with their herds, just like the yak and camel herders of Mongolia, and it gets fairly desperately cold there. And also among the Bedouins, and some Berber tribesmen and Tauregs.

So being freezing cold and travelling across the desert on camels and donkeys is still a reality for people across the deserts of North Africa and Asia, and herders of livestock in poorer countries likewise have to deal with extreme weather. For instance, in London, which is colder than Bethlehem and Jerusalem during the winter, the shepherds would shelter in bushes and hedges cut out to allow for them to partially fit inside, and from this is derived the name of Shepherd’s Bush Station on the London Underground (for it is located in an area once dominated by sheep pastures).

Also this is why we see warm blankets as a fixture among cultures that conduct herding on an extensive basis.

Thus it makes quite a bit of sense for our Lord to have been born in December.

 

[Emun]

I don’t see why any of this is contrary to a December birth. Israel is a warmer country than say, Sweden, and even in Northern Scandinavia the Sami people, or Lapplanders, who herd reindeer, historically stayed with their herds, just like the yak and camel herders of Mongolia, and it gets fairly desperately cold there. And also among the Bedouins, and some Berber tribesmen and Tauregs.

So being freezing cold and travelling across the desert on camels and donkeys is still a reality for people across the deserts of North Africa and Asia, and herders of livestock in poorer countries likewise have to deal with extreme weather. For instance, in London, which is colder than Bethlehem and Jerusalem during the winter, the shepherds would shelter in bushes and hedges cut out to allow for them to partially fit inside, and from this is derived the name of Shepherd’s Bush Station on the London Underground (for it is located in an area once dominated by sheep pastures).

Also this is why we see warm blankets as a fixture among cultures that conduct herding on an extensive basis.

Thus it makes quite a bit of sense for our Lord to have been born in December.

Okay, let's assume the winter there is warmer. Nevertheless, December 25 or January 7 is undoubtedly wrong. Because Jesus' birthday certainly took place on a special Jewish day. As, for example, the crucifixion (Passover), the resurrection (First Fruits) and pentecost (Shavout), have taken place on Jewish feast days, the birth of Jesus must of course have taken place on such a feast day. Since the Hebrew calendar is different, Jesus' birthday can never be always on the same date in the Gregorian or Julian calendar. And what special Jewish days are in December or January? Hannukah does not count because it is not biblical.

 

[The Liturgist]

Okay, let's assume the winter there is warmer. Nevertheless, December 25 or January 7 is undoubtedly wrong. Because Jesus' birthday certainly took place on a special Jewish day. As, for example, the crucifixion (Passover), the resurrection (First Fruits) and pentecost (Shavout), have taken place on Jewish feast days, the birth of Jesus must of course have taken place on such a feast day. Since the Hebrew calendar is different, Jesus' birthday can never be always on the same date in the Gregorian or Julian calendar. And what special Jewish days are in December or January? Hannukah does not count because it is not biblical.

Our Lord was conceived on Pascha (March 25th) and therefore was born on December 25th. This is the reason why the Early Church determined December 25th (on the Julian Calendar) as the date of his Nativity. The Annunciation, on which He was conceived, March 25th, was historically the more important of the two holidays, and the Nativity and Baptism of our Lord (Theophany or Epiphany) were celebrated together until the fourth century (and still are celebrated on the same date in the Armenian Church).

 

[Emun]

Our Lord was conceived on Pascha (March 25th) and therefore was born on December 25th. This is the reason why the Early Church determined December 25th (on the Julian Calendar) as the date of his Nativity. The Annunciation, on which He was conceived, March 25th, was historically the more important of the two holidays, and the Nativity and Baptism of our Lord (Theophany or Epiphany) were celebrated together until the fourth century (and still are celebrated on the same date in the Armenian Church).

Was Jesus conceived on March 25 because it was Pascha? Then how can Jesus birthday be every year on 25. December? I ask because Pascha is based on the Hebrew calendar and therefore falls on a different day each year in the Julian calendar. It cannot possibly be December 25 every year.

And suppose he was conceived on March 25. How do you know he was born on December 25? A pregnancy is not always exactly 9 months. What if he was born after 9 months and 1 week or what if he was born after 8 months and 3 weeks? This is all based on pure speculation.

It makes much more sense that Jesus was born on a fixed Jewish feast day.

 

[The Liturgist]

Was Jesus conceived on March 25 because it was Pascha? Then how can Jesus birthday be every year on 25. December? I ask because Pascha is based on the Hebrew calendar and therefore falls on a different day each year in the Julian calendar. It cannot possibly be December 25 every year.

And suppose he was conceived on March 25. How do you know he was born on December 25? A pregnancy is not always exactly 9 months. What if he was born after 9 months and 1 week or what if he was born after 8 months and 3 weeks? This is all based on pure speculation.

It makes much more sense that Jesus was born on a fixed Jewish feast day.

Respectfully, that’s your opinion. It is not shared by, for instance, Eusebius of Caesarea, the leading historian of the Early Church, or any other Patristic figures, which is why everyone celebrates the nativity on December 25th using either the Julian/Coptic calendar or the Gregorian calendar (except the Armenians)

 

[Yekcidmij]

Was Jesus conceived on March 25 because it was Pascha? Then how can Jesus birthday be every year on 25. December? I ask because Pascha is based on the Hebrew calendar and therefore falls on a different day each year in the Julian calendar. It cannot possibly be December 25 every year.

And suppose he was conceived on March 25. How do you know he was born on December 25? A pregnancy is not always exactly 9 months. What if he was born after 9 months and 1 week or what if he was born after 8 months and 3 weeks? This is all based on pure speculation.

It makes much more sense that Jesus was born on a fixed Jewish feast day.

The earliest patristic evidence points to the idea that Jesus was conceived on the day that he died - ie, Passover (which is how we get a Dec 25 day for Christmas). I think this idea probably comes from the early church fathers reflecting on the Nativity timetable in Luke's gospel and the courses of the priests. In other words, this idea may have come from Luke's gospel itself.

 

[Deafsilence]

Okay, let's assume the winter there is warmer. Nevertheless, December 25 or January 7 is undoubtedly wrong. Because Jesus' birthday certainly took place on a special Jewish day. As, for example, the crucifixion (Passover), the resurrection (First Fruits) and pentecost (Shavout), have taken place on Jewish feast days, the birth of Jesus must of course have taken place on such a feast day. Since the Hebrew calendar is different, Jesus' birthday can never be always on the same date in the Gregorian or Julian calendar. And what special Jewish days are in December or January? Hannukah does not count because it is not biblical.

Hannukah is biblical in that it is the time of the Feast of Dedication. Aka - Feast of Lights. It is that Feast of Lights when Jesus was born.

And yes, it is in your Bible:

Joh_10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

 

[Emun]

Hannukah is biblical in that it is the time of the Feast of Dedication. Aka - Feast of Lights. It is that Feast of Lights when Jesus was born.

And yes, it is in your Bible:

Joh_10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

It is not a biblical feast because it does not appear in the Old Testament.

The Feast of Dedication was founded by Judas Maccabaeus. Judas Maccabaeus lived after the completion of the Old Testament.

 

[Emun]

The earliest patristic evidence points to the idea that Jesus was conceived on the day that he died - ie, Passover (which is how we get a Dec 25 day for Christmas). I think this idea probably comes from the early church fathers reflecting on the Nativity timetable in Luke's gospel and the courses of the priests. In other words, this idea may have come from Luke's gospel itself.

There were different views in the early church on which day Jesus was born.

Even if Jesus was conceived on March 25. It is nevertheless pure speculation to set the date of birth on December 25.

 

[Yekcidmij]

There were different views in the early church on which day Jesus was born.

Even if Jesus was conceived on March 25. It is nevertheless pure speculation to set the date of birth on December 25.

It's hard to see how it's "pure speculation" if this belief were arrived at by way of reflection on Luke's timeline and the courses of the priests.

 

[Emun]

It's hard to see how it's "pure speculation" if this belief were arrived at by way of reflection on Luke's timeline and the courses of the priests.

The same is said by those who prefer a birth in Tishrei. They also use the argument of the timeline and the courses of priests to support their view. If this is so accurate, why are there different views?

 

[Yekcidmij]

The same is said by those who prefer a birth in Tishrei. They also use the argument of the timeline and the courses of priests to support their view. If this is so accurate, why are there different views?

I was disputing the characterization of "pure speculation." It's not "pure speculation" if its based on reading Luke - unless Luke was purely speculating. It may not be conclusive - the courses of the priests served twice during the year, which would leave us with two possibilities, but neither would be "pure speculation." Maybe it was just some rhetoric on your part to characterize it this way?

 

[Emun]

I was disputing the characterization of "pure speculation." It's not "pure speculation" if its based on reading Luke - unless Luke was purely speculating. It may not be conclusive - the courses of the priests served twice during the year, which would leave us with two possibilities, but neither would be "pure speculation." Maybe it was just some rhetoric on your part to characterize it this way?

As I have heard how the 25th of December as birthday for Jesus originated, I call that quite speculation. As I have heard, one has decided for the 25th of March as the day of the conception, because one thought Jesus would be born at the same time at which he also died. That is speculation. Then they thought that Jesus was born exactly 9 months later. That is also speculation.