Was Jesus born in September?

[straykat]

You are mixed up about when each month's sign begins and ends. Aries starts at the spring equinox. The exact dates vary, but they begin and end in the 20s, not on the first day. This is because a new year isn't on January 1, but Nisan 1, the first spring new moon, on the lunar calendars. That is also why Aries is the first, not Aquarius.

12 Astrology Zodiac Signs Dates, Meanings and Compatibility

This would still be in the same time frame. Virgo constellation is still going to be there, and Judaism wise, funnily, this conjunction mentioned above also lines up with the Rosh Hashanah/Feast of Trumpets on Tishri 1, the traditional inaugural date for a King of Israel.

 

[GodLovesCats]

This would still be in the same time frame. Virgo constellation is still going to be there, and Judaism wise, funnily, this conjunction mentioned above also lines up with the Rosh Hashanah/Feast of Trumpets on Tishri 1, the traditional inaugural date for a King of Israel.

Well yes, I was just correcting your statement that Virgo is the September zodiac.

 

[ewq1938]

Well yes, I was just correcting your statement that Virgo is the September zodiac.

Sept is Virgo for 22 days, Sept is not Virgo only for 8 days.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Sept is Virgo for 22 days, Sept is not Virgo only for 8 days.

See posts 79 and 80 on page 4.

 

[ewq1938]

See posts 79 and 80 on page 4.

Post 80 matches what I said. Most of Sept is in the sign of Virgo.

"Virgo - August 23 - September 22 (near fall equinox)"

 

[Erik Nelson]

Where did you get that idea from?

Matthew talks about the birth, and the uncomfortable temporary accomodations

Then they are living in a house when the Magi arrive, and Herod executes all babies up to "two years" old, obviously (?) "just to be sure" but still some significant time has evidently elapsed

 

[GodLovesCats]

I don't see how it could take the Magi almost two years to travel. The sky can't be clear that long and the Star of Bethlehem had to be visible constantly every night.

 

[The Liturgist]

Luke 1:5 gives a date for when Zechariah was in the temple. From this the approximate birthday of Jesus can be worked out.

Jesus also fulfills the old testament law, the feasts of Israel. Which feast of Israel speaks of his birth?

Perhaps Sukkot- the Jews build a tent, a tabernacle and dwell in it for a time. Perhaps this points to our Lord -the word became flesh and tabernacled- dwelt among us.

Equates with September on our calendar I believe.

God Bless

More like October. But, since we know that the Annunciation happened at around the same time as the Passion of our Lord, in the spring, that pushes the nativity to a period between December 25 and January 18, and interestingly enough, if you go to Jerusalem, the Catholics and other Western Christians celebrate his birth on the 25th, followed by most of the Orthodox Christians on the Julian calendar 25th, which works out to be the 7th of January, followed by the Armenian Orthodox, who celebrate his birthday on the Feast of Epiphany according to the Julian Calendar, which works out to be Jan 18.

 

[The Liturgist]

I always had a thing about His birth when I was a kid that it would have been Oct. 31----just something sneaky that Satan would have had his hand in it---turning the date of the birth of Jesus into a date of honoring witches and the occult, and taking a pagan date and making it His birthday. I could just picture him snickering in the corner on Halloween. Just something perverse he would do!

But that’s just an Anglo-American cultural perversion of the Feast of All Saints, which is one of the holiest and most important in Christendom. The Eastern Orthodox celebrate this feast the Sunday after Pentecost (when the West celebrates Trinity Sunday; Pentecost is interpreted as a Trinitarian feast in the Orthodox church interestingly, so following it with another feast on the same theme would be redundant). There are no grotesque traditions involving ghosts, goblins, ghouls or dressing uo, on the eve of All Saints Day in the Eastern Orthodox tradition.

I think several Western churches should consider moving it, to the first Sunday in November, because the last Sunday in October is Reformation Sunday (which interestingly corresponds with a pair of Syriac Orthodox feasts, the Feast of the Dedication of the Church and the Feast of the Renewal of the Church), which happen immediately before Advent and mark the start of their liturgical year.

 

[The Liturgist]

Saturnalia - Wikipedia

Yule - Wikipedia

But this isn’t really relevant, because Saturnalia covered that whole week. The ancient custom was to celebrate the Feast of the Nativity (Christmas) with the Epiphany/Theophnay (the Feast of the Baptism of our Lord), which is still how the Armenians do it. Rome and every other church decided to seprarate the two holidays, I think due to a realization of the great signifigance of the Incarnation.

And that is what we should be focusing on, not nitpicking over the date or bashing the Roman Catholics. Lets not forget they had no power to force the other ancient churches to celebrate holidays according to their preferred timing; Pope Victor tried this in the second century regarding the date of Pascha (Easter) and was rebuffed; he threatened to excommunicate the churches of Asia Minor that declined his mandate, but then Irenaeus of Lyons, a senior bishop and the most celebrated second century theologian, called him out and made him drop the matter. This was in an era before papal supremacy or papal infallibility.

In fact Pope Victor was not even addressed as Pope; he was Bishop Victor or Archbishop Victor. The only bishop addressed as Pope until the sixth century AD, when Rome started using the term, was the bishop of Alexandria, the great church founded by Mark the Evangelist (who we also know was the owner of the house with the Cenacle or Upper Room).

 

[The Liturgist]

Well, it's certainly better than "The Pope declareth it to be December 25th" That's not even spinning at all. It's by fiat declaration.

In any case, I'm not sure what's being spun any more than other hermeneutical approaches. They all have a theory, and then build from it. This theory at least accounts for Revelation 12 - a text that most ignore when discussing the birth of Jesus. For some reason, many people don't seem to register it. But it needs to be taken into account. Not just the Gospels.

It's also useful to know that Judaism didn't necessarily have anything against using constellation symbols. There's been multiple unearthed synagogues from the first several centuries AD that have Zodiac mosaics. Once you realize that, it's not necessarily a stretch to use this approach (and there's a difference between that and Babylonian astrology. A lot of ancient world knew of constellations, but weren't using it like the Babylonians).

Just food for thought.

I would have huge concerns about using the Zodiac on the basis of a synagogue constructed after the birth of our Lord and the Judeo-Christian schism. There are several areas of doctrine in Rabinnical Judaism, like the Kaballah, which are completely alien to, and incompatible with, Christian theology.

 

[Radagast]

I don't see how it could take the Magi almost two years to travel. The sky can't be clear that long and the Star of Bethlehem had to be visible constantly every night.

It was probably more like one year (Herod probably allowed a 1-year margin each way). And that includes planning time.

Also, the star was not "visible constantly every night." Quite the opposite, actually.

They saw a star in an astronomical context that, going by their system, meant "a king is born in Judea." That's as far as they got. They had to ask for directions in Jerusalem (which they knew was the capital of Judea).

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

Herod steers them to Bethlehem:

He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

Only in (or near) Bethlehem do they see the star again, and get more detailed help:

After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was.

Note the language there: the star that they had seen way back in the old country now shows them the house. The CSB translates the verse a little more clearly:

After hearing the king, they went on their way. And there it was—the star they had seen at its rising. It led them until it came and stopped above the place where the child was.

The CSB does a good job with the exclamation idou, which the ESV translates as "behold!" and the KJV as "lo!" It was amazing! The exact same star they had seen with their instruments a year before, now shows them the way! That's why they are "overwhelmed with joy." They weren't expecting it!

When they saw the star, they were overwhelmed with joy.

 

[Andrewn]

But this isn’t really relevant, because Saturnalia covered that whole week.

10 Christian Holidays and Beliefs Steeped in Pagan Traditions

Christmas January 7th or December 25th?
"The first Church did not celebrate the birth of Christ. And the actual date of his birth was and still is unknown. The earliest known indication to such a celebration comes in a passing statement by St. Clement of Alexandria who mentions that the Egyptians of his time celebrated the Lord's birth on May 20. At the end of the 3rd century, the Western Churches celebrated it in the winter, and this was only accepted in Rome in the middle of the 4th century.

Around that time it was agreed by the Church all over the world to celebrate the nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ on 25 December (29 Kiahk in the Coptic calendar), most probably to take the place of a pagan feast that even Christians continued to celebrate until then."

 

[GodLovesCats]

There is an interesting detail in Luke 2:4-7 (NIV) about where Jesus was born.

4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

Apparently Jesus was born in Joseph's house and Mary then took the baby to a manger because the house did not have a guest room.

As the story goes on, we can see why it is unlikely Jesus was born in December.

8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.

The shepherds and sheep were outside. Chances are it was not a cold night because of this.

Luke 2 NIV

 

[The Liturgist]

The first Church did not celebrate the birth of Christ. And the actual date of his birth was and still is unknown.

Both untrue statements. As I have said, the Nativity was celebrated together with the Baptism of Christ, and the approximate date of his birth can be reasoned from the date of the Annunciation, and the Visitation of John the Baptist, as being between Dec 20 and Jan 20 inclusive.

 

[The Liturgist]

There is an interesting detail in Luke 2:4-7 (NIV) about where Jesus was born.

4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

Apparently Jesus was born in Joseph's house and Mary then took the baby to a manger because the house did not have a guest room.

As the story goes on, we can see why it is unlikely Jesus was born in December.

8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.

The shepherds and sheep were outside. Chances are it was not a cold night because of this.

Luke 2 NIV

This point has been addressed; Judea is warm enough in December for sheep to remain outside.

 

[Radagast]

There is an interesting detail in Luke 2:4-7 (NIV) about where Jesus was born.

4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. ...

Apparently Jesus was born in Joseph's house and Mary then took the baby to a manger because the house did not have a guest room.

That's "house" in the sense of "royal family." Our current queen is from the House of Windsor. It doesn't mean "home" or "building."

 

[Andrewn]

Both untrue statements. As I have said, the Nativity was celebrated together with the Baptism of Christ,

This is scary. You don't even feel the necessity of providing references.

the approximate date of his birth can be reasoned from the date of the Annunciation, and the Visitation of John the Baptist,

Circular logic!! I'd rather believe copticchurch.net and Jonathan Cahn and other intelligent people that I read for and listened to over the years..

 

[Radagast]

Circular logic!!

No, because the celebration of the Annunciation is in fact older than the celebration of Christmas.

 

[David Kent]

I once had this conversation with another poster on CF and they were adamant that in the winter there is snow on the ground in Israel and the sheep wouldn't have been able to graze and would have been kept in some barn/manger for the season.

That's when I looked up the annual temps in Israel and found that the minimum runs 50°F in the coastal regions in Jan/Feb. Inland temps can run 10°F lower. However, these are the minimums and the average temps during the day are fairly pleasant throughout the winter. Snow in Israel is about as common as snow in Florida in the states.

"Snow that lasts more than a day falls an average of every 2–4 years. Heavy snow falls every 10–15 years. The last heavy snow fall in Jerusalem was December 2013 and was on the ground about a week. The plains last had snow that stuck in February 1950."

That doesn't account for global warming.