Was Jesus born in September?

Yekcidmij

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As I have heard how the 25th of December as birthday for Jesus originated, I call that quite speculation. As I have heard, one has decided for the 25th of March as the day of the conception, because one thought Jesus would be born at the same time at which he also died. That is speculation. Then they thought that Jesus was born exactly 9 months later. That is also speculation.

Well at least its been downgraded now from "pure speculation" to just "speculation."
 
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Andrewn

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Our Lord was conceived on Pascha (March 25th)
You use the word Pascha to refer to Passover. But EO use this word to refer to Easter/Resurrection Sunday. This is confusing as the word itself could also refer to Good Friday. I think there was a debate about the meaning in the first centuries to which Eusebius of Caesarea refers in his Church History.
 
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Deafsilence

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It is not a biblical feast because it does not appear in the Old Testament.

The Feast of Dedication was founded by Judas Maccabaeus. Judas Maccabaeus lived after the completion of the Old Testament.
That means nothing. The New Testament calls it a Feast. The event is a significant part of Jewish history and therefore Christian History.
 
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Deafsilence

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There were different views in the early church on which day Jesus was born.

Even if Jesus was conceived on March 25. It is nevertheless pure speculation to set the date of birth on December 25.

The Birthday was not on December 25th. It was at or around December 2nd of 3 BC. Which was about the 25th of Kislev (Feast of Dedication).

I believe that the early Christians use December 25th to have a fixed date to use for the observance by combining the 25th day from the Feast of Dedication with the actual month that Jesus was born in on that fixed calendar. I believe they did the same thing with day of Passover, I believe they chose a Friday for the crucifixion to coincide with the fact that it was the 6th day of the week. Since the week was based on a lunar and not solar calendar they needed away to afix it to a Friday for observance.
 
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Deafsilence

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The same is said by those who prefer a birth in Tishrei. They also use the argument of the timeline and the courses of priests to support their view. If this is so accurate, why are there different views?

They can't it wont work. Zacharias is performed the services of the Day of Atonement. If we then follow the narrative, Elizabeth would have gotten pregnant very soon afterward and then Mary would be in the 6th month thereafter. All of this leads to a birth around December.
 
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Deafsilence

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As I have heard how the 25th of December as birthday for Jesus originated, I call that quite speculation. As I have heard, one has decided for the 25th of March as the day of the conception, because one thought Jesus would be born at the same time at which he also died. That is speculation. Then they thought that Jesus was born exactly 9 months later. That is also speculation.

If you dig enough you will see that Jesus was born during the Feast of Dedication.
 
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Emun

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That means nothing. The New Testament calls it a Feast. The event is a significant part of Jewish history and therefore Christian History.
Why would Jesus have been born on an extra-biblical festival when the Bible says He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament? His death took place on Passover, his resurrection took place on Firstfruits, and Pentecost took place on Shavout. These are all biblical Jewish festivals. The Feast of Dedication, even though it occurs in the New Testament, is not a biblical one.

I believe that Jesus was born in springtime because it is the time when the lambs for the Passover sacrifices were born, since they had to be one year old according to the Torah, and because springtime is the time when the tent of God was erected. Jesus is the true tent of God. The commandment to build the tent took place around the summer of last year. So the tent took about 9/10 months to be completed. This would harmonize with an average pregnancy.
 
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Deafsilence

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Why would Jesus have been born on an extra-biblical festival when the Bible says He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament? His death took place on Passover, his resurrection took place on Firstfruits, and Pentecost took place on Shavout. These are all biblical Jewish festivals. The Feast of Dedication, even though it occurs in the New Testament, is not a biblical one.

I believe that Jesus was born in springtime because it is the time when the lambs for the Passover sacrifices were born, since they had to be one year old according to the Torah, and because springtime is the time when the tent of God was erected. Jesus is the true tent of God. The commandment to build the tent took place around the summer of last year. So the tent took about 9/10 months to be completed. This would harmonize with an average pregnancy.
Well, let's look at what you just said. Your saying that the Feast of Dedication is not biblical but yet your Bible does show it. So that is a falsehood that your claiming.

I think you need to understand the priestly cycles. There were 24 of them. They served from sabbath to sabbath. The Sabbaths were according to the Lunar Calendar just like the Feast day are. Therefore, each lunar month the Sabbath falls on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and the 29th of the month.

Now there are 49 weeks in the Lunar year. This is regardless of which year it is.

Now we know in Luke it says that Zacharias served during the course of Abia, but we also know it was specifically the day of Atonement. So we simply need to go back in time and see when was the course of Abia serving during the Day of Atonement during the birth period. We know the period is from around 6 BC to 1 AD by most accounts. So the question is - What year in that timeframe was the course of Abia serving during the Day of Atonement. The answer is 4 BC. We know this because the Talmud says that the FIRST Course was serving during the destruction of the temple in 70 AD which was the 9th of Av (5th Lunar month). So Abia is the 8th course. We can count back through each year moving a course per year and find that in 4 BC, Abia would be serving the 2nd week of Tishri (7th lunar month). Then we can go by the narrative in Luke and see that if Elizabeth conceived somewhere right after the Day of Atonement or the end of the Month then Mary conceived somewhere around the Spring Equinox. This means she would have given birth around November-December which is exactly when the Feast of Dedication occurs.

Please note that Jesus came as the Light. It is my opinion that he was born on the First day of the 8 days celebration of the Feast of Dedication and circumcised on the last or 8th day of it in accordance with Jewish law.
 
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Emun

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Well, let's look at what you just said. Your saying that the Feast of Dedication is not biblical but yet your Bible does show it. So that is a falsehood that your claiming.
Hanukkah is not mentioned in the Old Testament so it is not a festival of the Torah. It is a festival that originated outside the Bible.
I think you need to understand the priestly cycles. There were 24 of them. They served from sabbath to sabbath. The Sabbaths were according to the Lunar Calendar just like the Feast day are. Therefore, each lunar month the Sabbath falls on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and the 29th of the month.
This is wrong. The unified opinion of the Jews and also Christians disagree with you. The so-called Lunar Sabbath has been debunked many times.
Now we know in Luke it says that Zacharias served during the course of Abia, but we also know it was specifically the day of Atonement. So we simply need to go back in time and see when was the course of Abia serving during the Day of Atonement during the birth period. We know the period is from around 6 BC to 1 AD by most accounts. So the question is - What year in that timeframe was the course of Abia serving during the Day of Atonement. The answer is 4 BC. We know this because the Talmud says that the FIRST Course was serving during the destruction of the temple in 70 AD which was the 9th of Av (5th Lunar month). So Abia is the 8th course. We can count back through each year moving a course per year and find that in 4 BC, Abia would be serving the 2nd week of Tishri (7th lunar month). Then we can go by the narrative in Luke and see that if Elizabeth conceived somewhere right after the Day of Atonement or the end of the Month then Mary conceived somewhere around the Spring Equinox. This means she would have given birth around November-December which is exactly when the Feast of Dedication occurs.
That is your view. Rick Lanser (MDiv degree), on the other hand, comes to the conclusion that Jesus was born in spring, on the basis of Abijah's division.
 
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Deafsilence

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Hanukkah is not mentioned in the Old Testament so it is not a festival of the Torah. It is a festival that originated outside the Bible.

This is wrong. The unified opinion of the Jews and also Christians disagree with you. The so-called Lunar Sabbath has been debunked many times.

That is your view. Rick Lanser (MDiv degree), on the other hand, comes to the conclusion that Jesus was born in spring, on the basis of Abijah's division.
He's wrong. And it will become obvious as to why if you look carefully enough.

Consider the following on that link:

"Therefore, each year presents 52 weekly slots to be filled by a division. With 24 slots constituting one full priestly cycle, two cycles could be completely filled each year, totaling 48 weeks."

Is there really 52 weeks in every solar year from Sabbath to Sabbath? No. That would only happen if the week started within the first 2 days of the year. Therefore, there are going to be years that don't have 52 unbroken weeks by that reckoning. This is because he is making the mistake that others have made, which is that they don't understand that the Sabbath weeks are based on the lunar Calendar. Consider that he quotes that Josephus said that the Priests administered from Sabbath to Sabbath. Why is that important? Because if Josephus would have said each week then it would mean there was nobody administering during those days in-between the sabbath weeks such as the new moon days.

You see this is far less complicated once you know how the calendar worked. They observed a Lunar calendar for their sabbaths so you have to follow the courses accordingly. There is always going to be 49 lunar weeks in a year (regardless of whether it is a pregnant or leap year). On the link they are trying to account for leap years and such. This isn't necessary. You don't run into the same problem as you do with a 52 week solar year because this calendar has enough extra days in a year so that the weeks work our consistently from year to year.
 
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Andrewn

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Zacharias is performed the services of the Day of Atonement.

Now we know in Luke it says that Zacharias served during the course of Abia, but we also know it was specifically the day of Atonement.
There is no reason to think that Zacharias served on the Day of Atonement. He was not the high priest.

The answer is 4 BC.
Since Herod died in the spring of 4 BC, Jesus was born in 5 BC or earlier. When the implications of the slaughter of the Bethlehem innocents two years old and under are accounted for, it points to the birth of Jesus taking place around 6 BC.
We can count back through each year moving a course per year and find that in 4 BC, Abia would be serving the 2nd week of Tishri (7th lunar month).
According to your calculation, John was born in Jul 3 BC.

Mary conceived somewhere around the Spring Equinox. This means she would have given birth around November-December which is exactly when the Feast of Dedication occurs.
According to your calculation, Jesus was born in Dec 3 BC.

There is always going to be 49 lunar weeks in a year (regardless of whether it is a pregnant or leap year).
No, not really. In a regular lunar year there are 50 wks + 4 days on average. In a leap year there are 54 weeks + 6 days on average.

This does not work with Herod's time of death, either. You need to start from the beginning without assuming that Zecharias served on the Day of Atonement. Keep in mind that Jesus was likely born in 6 BC.
 
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Deafsilence

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There is no reason to think that Zacharias served on the Day of Atonement. He was not the high priest.


Since Herod died in the spring of 4 BC, Jesus was born in 5 BC or earlier. When the implications of the slaughter of the Bethlehem innocents two years old and under are accounted for, it points to the birth of Jesus taking place around 6 BC.

According to your calculation, John was born in Jul 3 BC.


According to your calculation, Jesus was born in Dec 3 BC.


No, not really. In a regular lunar year there are 50 wks + 4 days on average. In a leap year there are 54 weeks + 6 days on average.

This does not work with Herod's time of death, either. You need to start from the beginning without assuming that Zecharias served on the Day of Atonement. Keep in mind that Jesus was likely born in 6 BC.

Zacharias is the High Priest as based on the narrative in Luke. Just because it calls him a Priest instead of High Priest doesn't mean that he isn't the High Priest.

However Luke is showing that Zacharias is performing the duties on the Day of Atonement.

You will see that Luke records that multitude it outside praying when he is to offer the incense. This is because at the Day of Atonement the congregation would be outside praying while the incense is offered which is an offering of their prayers.

Further more Luke says that the Multitude wondered at how long he tarried inside. Now typically, there would be many priests inside but at this time, there is none it would seem to give the multitude a reason for the length of time that Zacharias is in service there. Luke is telling us two points which show us that this is the Day of Atonement.

Lev 16:17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

Luk 1:10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.
Luk 1:21 And the people waited for Zacharias, and marvelled that he tarried so long in the temple.

I don't believe Herod died in 4 BC and I believe the Eclipse that is spoken of by Josephus is the one that occurred on Jan 10th of 1 BC.

Yes, I believe Jesus was born in 3 BC. In fact, I believe He was born on or around 2 December of 3 BC.

And no there isn't 50 weeks and 4 days in a Lunar year. You simply just dividing 354 days by 7 and that is now how their weeks worked. The Jewish week was such that each Lunar Month had 4 weeks. The first day (new moon) of the month was not counted in the reckoning of the weeks. Therefore, each Sabbath was on the 8th, 15th,22nd and 29th of the lunar month. This always gives you 49 weeks in a year.
 
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Andrewn

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Just because it calls him a Priest instead of High Priest doesn't mean that he isn't the High Priest. However Luke is showing that Zacharias is performing the duties on the Day of Atonement. You will see that Luke records that multitude it outside praying when he is to offer the incense. This is because at the Day of Atonement the congregation would be outside praying while the incense is offered which is an offering of their prayers. Further more Luke says that the Multitude wondered at how long he tarried inside.
If this is what you consider "evidence," I can't really discuss it with you.

I don't believe Herod died in 4 BC and I believe the Eclipse that is spoken of by Josephus is the one that occurred on Jan 10th of 1 BC.
I read about this hypothesis before but the evidence is very weak.

The Jewish week was such that each Lunar Month had 4 weeks. The first day (new moon) of the month was not counted in the reckoning of the weeks. Therefore, each Sabbath was on the 8th, 15th,22nd and 29th of the lunar month. This always gives you 49 weeks in a year.
I have no idea where you got this from!
 
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Deafsilence

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If this is what you consider "evidence," I can't really discuss it with you.


I read about this hypothesis before but the evidence is very weak.


I have no idea where you got this from!

Well there is more evidence - most of the early church fathers believe that Jesus was born between 3 and 2 BC. But Clement of Alexandria nails it by telling us it is 194 years 1 month and 13 days from the death of Commodus. That puts it right at the beginning of the Feast of Dedication in 3 BC.

Regarding the moon, you simply can look at the writings of Philo. He shows that the Sabbaths were per the phases of the moon. But the Jewish Encyclopedia also shows that the Sabbaths were based on the moon at one point.

You need to study it more and you will come to the conclusion.

 
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Andrewn

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But Clement of Alexandria nails it by telling us it is 194 years 1 month and 13 days from the death of Commodus. That puts it right at the beginning of the Feast of Dedication in 3 BC.
In the Stromata, Clement also said, "from the destruction of Jerusalem to the death of Commodus, a hundred and twenty-eight years, ten months, and three days." Commodus died on 31 December 192. This gives the date of the destruction of Jerusalem as Feb 64 AD!!

And he also wrote, "from the time that He suffered till the destruction of Jerusalem are forty-two years and three months." This gives the date of the crucifixion of Christ as Nov 21 AD!!!

Of course, all this is irrelevant nonsense!!!

Regarding the moon, you simply can look at the writings of Philo. He shows that the Sabbaths were per the phases of the moon. But the Jewish Encyclopedia also shows that the Sabbaths were based on the moon at one point. You need to study it more and you will come to the conclusion. Lunar Sabbaths weekly Sabbath — One Yahweh
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, "At an early date, however, this intimate connection between the week and the moon must have been dissolved, the chief cause of the fixed week of seven days being, in all probability, the predominance of the seventh day as the Sabbath (but see Meinhold, "Sabbat und Woche im O. T." Göttingen, 1905, according to whom Sabbath, originally only the full-moon day and the week are independent of each other)."

And according to Wikipedia:

"A continuous seven-day cycle that runs throughout history without reference to the phases of the moon was first practiced in Judaism, dated to the 6th century BCE at the latest.[15][16]
  1. Zerubavel (1989), p. 11.
  2. ^ Jump up to: a b c d Senn, Frank C. (1997). Christian Liturgy: Catholic and Evangelical. Fortress Press. ISBN 978-0-8006-2726-3."
So, this issue is really irrelevant for figuring out Jesus' birthday.
 
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Deafsilence

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In the Stromata, Clement also said, "from the destruction of Jerusalem to the death of Commodus, a hundred and twenty-eight years, ten months, and three days." Commodus died on 31 December 192. This gives the date of the destruction of Jerusalem as Feb 64 AD!!

And he also wrote, "from the time that He suffered till the destruction of Jerusalem are forty-two years and three months." This gives the date of the crucifixion of Christ as Nov 21 AD!!!

Of course, all this is irrelevant nonsense!!!
Well not really, Clement is quoting others and not himself when he comes up with these. In fact, he knows some of the quotes are in contradiction to others that he is quoting. The point is one of the ones quotes does nail that date of the Feast of Dedication in 3 BC. So if Herod had already died then why would someone even have even shared it such that Clement quoted it.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, "At an early date, however, this intimate connection between the week and the moon must have been dissolved, the chief cause of the fixed week of seven days being, in all probability, the predominance of the seventh day as the Sabbath (but see Meinhold, "Sabbat und Woche im O. T." Göttingen, 1905, according to whom Sabbath, originally only the full-moon day and the week are independent of each other)."

And according to Wikipedia:

"A continuous seven-day cycle that runs throughout history without reference to the phases of the moon was first practiced in Judaism, dated to the 6th century BCE at the latest.[15][16]
  1. Zerubavel (1989), p. 11.
  2. ^ Jump up to: a b c d Senn, Frank C. (1997). Christian Liturgy: Catholic and Evangelical. Fortress Press. ISBN 978-0-8006-2726-3."
So, this issue is really irrelevant for figuring out Jesus' birthday.

IF that was the case then explain how Ezekial could have laid on his side for 430 days if the Jews were not observing a lunar calendar. I don't believe you can.
 
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Andrewn

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Well not really, Clement is quoting others and not himself when he comes up with these. In fact, he knows some of the quotes are in contradiction to others that he is quoting. The point is one of the ones quotes does nail that date of the Feast of Dedication in 3 BC. So if Herod had already died then why would someone even have even shared it such that Clement quoted it.
Let's forget about the year and look at what Clement said about the date. He wrote, "they say that it took place in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus, and in the twenty-fifth day of Pachon." And he wrote, "others say that he was born on the twenty-fourth or twenty-fifth of Pharmuthi." The Egyptian month Pachon is in May, and Pharamuthi corresponds to April.

IF that was the case then explain how Ezekial could have laid on his side for 430 days if the Jews were not observing a lunar calendar. I don't believe you can.
I'm not sure what case you refer to.
 
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Deafsilence

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Let's forget about the year and look at what Clement said about the date. He wrote, "they say that it took place in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus, and in the twenty-fifth day of Pachon." And he wrote, "others say that he was born on the twenty-fourth or twenty-fifth of Pharmuthi." The Egyptian month Pachon is in May, and Pharamuthi corresponds to April.


I'm not sure what case you refer to.

Right but again he is quoting what others said. Jesus was not born in March. Once you understand that the calendar is lunar based and that God does things according to it and by the means of His prophets, you will see that Jesus came representing Light. The reason for my other post in referencing the quote by Clement was that the indication is that the birth was after 4 BC and did take into consideration the belief that it could be during the Feast of Dedication.

The Feast of Dedication has to have a significance that is outside of the physical temple and pertaining to Christ or His Church. And that is why Feast of Dedication is not only the fitting appointed time but meats the timelines established in Luke.

Here is something many don't realize as a result of not knowing that the Calendar was lunar. If you look at the week of creation from the Lunar lens (if you will), you will see that the Sabbath day or that seventh day of the week had to occur during a Lunar phase just like all other Sabbaths do. The first moon is that in which the Full moon occurs AFTER the equinox. That is what we have here. I believe the 7th day is actually a Full moon, and that day 4 is actually the equinox. This also occurs the year in which Jesus is Crucified March 25th in 31 AD. In that year the 4th day of that Lunar week is the equinox.

What I was referring to with Ezekial is that he was instructed to lay on his side for 430 days. He apparently was given this instruction on or after:

Eze 1:1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.
Eze 1:2 In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity,

Then we find he is sitting up in the following time:

Eze 8:1 And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord GOD fell there upon me.

Now the only way those days could occur an be within that timeframe is if this is a lunar Calendar and the extra month was included in that 5th year of the Captivity of Jehoiachin. So from this we can see that there was still a practice of observing the lunar calendar in the 6th century BC and by Clement's quoting of others that the birth was 194 days one month and 13 days prior to the death of Commodus would show that it was being observed at Christ's Birth.
 
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The Liturgist

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Let's forget about the year and look at what Clement said about the date. He wrote, "they say that it took place in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus, and in the twenty-fifth day of Pachon." And he wrote, "others say that he was born on the twenty-fourth or twenty-fifth of Pharmuthi." The Egyptian month Pachon is in May, and Pharamuthi corresponds to April.


I'm not sure what case you refer to.

Making it even more complex is that Coptic months do not precisely overlap the Julian months, because while the Julian calendar used the same calculations regarding leap years as the Coptic on which it was based, the Julian calendar reconfigured the months and deleted the short month at the end of the year.
 
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By the way I am dreading some day getting a bill in the mail from Egypt for all of their technology my life depends on… Even if we limited it to just Alexandria, and ignored all of the pre-Hellenic innovations, such a bill would still be shockingly expensive. The Romans used Alexandria as their own version of Silicon Valley, and Egypt also benefitted from immense food security due to the Nile flood cycle.
 
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