Was Jesus born in September?

GodLovesCats

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That is what I read many people think. Clearly he was not born in late December. The Bible, which gives us no information about the weather in Bethlehem, is clear that shepherds were at the manger with their sheep. Mary rode on a donkey. The Magi rode on camels and donkeys to the manger. Knowing all this, is it likely Jesus was born in the late summer or early fall?
 

yeshuaslavejeff

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According to the most (apparently ) reliable witnesses of Hebrew life, shepherds, weather, and mostly of course knowing Yahuweh and knowing Scripture in the original languages, (hopefully in their hearts also) ,
09/27 +/- whatever error margin is the most likely date. With, I think, three separate calendars involved in the last 2000 years, it certainly is challenging ! (on purpose!)
 
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The Liturgist

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That is what I read many people think. Clearly he was not born in late December. The Bible, which gives us no information about the weather in Bethlehem, is clear that shepherds were at the manger with their sheep. Mary rode on a donkey. The Magi rode on camels and donkeys to the manger. Knowing all this, is it likely Jesus was born in the late summer or early fall?

No, because the Annunciation + 9 months places his birth during the period between Christmas and the Epiphany. Also, regarding the climate, ancient Judea was not Alaska, or even the Northeastern US or Northwestern Europe.
 
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Bob Carabbio

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That is what I read many people think. Clearly he was not born in late December. The Bible, which gives us no information about the weather in Bethlehem, is clear that shepherds were at the manger with their sheep. Mary rode on a donkey. The Magi rode on camels and donkeys to the manger. Knowing all this, is it likely Jesus was born in the late summer or early fall?

If it mattered at all, the Bible would have provided details. BUIT - if we knew EXACTLY when the Nativity occurred, we'd have been able to make an EVEN BIGGER RELIGIOUS MESS out of it than we already have. BUT HEY if you're gonna have an "Economic return to profitability blowout celebration" the Pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice is an excellent time to do it. SO we do. Catholics have always been big on incorporating PAGAN practices and beliefs into their "Tradition package".

And incidentally, Jesus WAS Born, as prophesied, and IS the only name under Heaven through who's perfect SIN OFFERING, we sinners can be saved.
 
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JackRT

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If we are to believe the birth narrative that the shepherds were "with their flocks in the fields by night" then this enables us to place the birth within a few weeks. Shepherds corraled their sheep at night. The corrals were simply low walls of rough fieldstone. The gate was just a gap in the wall across which the shepherd would lay his bedroll. This was not done in lambing season in order to prevent newborn lambs from being trampled and injured in the crowded corral. This would put the birth in the early spring in late March or early April.


In addition there is a huge amount of misinformation our Biblical understandings of the nativity story:

Wise men? ---- not biblical

Kings? --- not biblical

Magi? --- biblical, priests of the Zoroastrian religion

Three of them? --- not biblical

Came on camels? --- not biblical

Worldwide census? --- not historical, census in Galilee only

In ancestral home? --- biblical but not historical

Bethlehem? --- biblical but not likely

Nazareth? --- not biblical but probably

In a stable? --- not biblical

In a cave? --- not biblical

Laid in a manger? --- biblical

Animals present? --- not biblical

Shepherds in fields by night? --- only in lambing time in early spring

Slaughter of the innocents? --- biblical but likely not historical

Flight into Egypt? --- biblical but likely not historical

4 to 6 BC? --- according to Matthew

AD 6? --- according to Luke

Virgin birth? --- Paul said it was natural, Mark and John ignore it

Ever virgin? --- not biblical, Jesus had four brothers and at least two sisters
 
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HTacianas

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That is what I read many people think. Clearly he was not born in late December. The Bible, which gives us no information about the weather in Bethlehem, is clear that shepherds were at the manger with their sheep. Mary rode on a donkey. The Magi rode on camels and donkeys to the manger. Knowing all this, is it likely Jesus was born in the late summer or early fall?

The ancients held that all the great prophets died on the day they were conceived.
 
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miamited

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No, because the Annunciation + 9 months places his birth during the period between Christmas and the Epiphany. Also, regarding the climate, ancient Judea was not Alaska, or even the Northeastern US or Northwestern Europe.

Hi liturgist,

I have to agree that weather is not a likely factor in trying to determine 'when' Jesus was born. The weather in Israel is fairly temperate. Sheep don't just go off and hibernate for 5 months of winter like bears do. They have to be tended and grazed 365 days of the year. Just as we see cows out chewing the cud in some fairly cold weather here in the northern states.

I once had this conversation with another poster on CF and they were adamant that in the winter there is snow on the ground in Israel and the sheep wouldn't have been able to graze and would have been kept in some barn/manger for the season.

That's when I looked up the annual temps in Israel and found that the minimum runs 50°F in the coastal regions in Jan/Feb. Inland temps can run 10°F lower. However, these are the minimums and the average temps during the day are fairly pleasant throughout the winter. Snow in Israel is about as common as snow in Florida in the states.

"Snow that lasts more than a day falls an average of every 2–4 years. Heavy snow falls every 10–15 years. The last heavy snow fall in Jerusalem was December 2013 and was on the ground about a week. The plains last had snow that stuck in February 1950."

So as you can see, snow falls are irregular and some areas, just like Florida, get more regular snow than others, but there is rarely any major snow event in Israel. Like many, many animals, sheep have warm coats that would preclude them suffering any ill effects unless the temps might go as low as the teens or better.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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ViaCrucis

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Those who argue for a September birth usually use as their rationale that since some of the important events in the life of Christ and the early Church are associated with important high Jewish holy days, then Jesus' birth should be as well. And thus they try to argue that Jesus must have been born during Sukkot, the Jewish Feast of Booths/Tabernacles.

The problem with this theory is that the Gospel stories clearly state that Joseph and the very pregnant Mary traveled from Nazareth to Bethlehem, and that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Note that Joseph is present. This is a huge problem because Sukkot was one of the three pilgrim feasts in Judaism, in which all adult Jewish males were obligated to come to Jerusalem to observe the feast. These feasts are Passover, Shavu'ot (aka "Pentecost"), and Sukkot. This is also why, for example, in Acts ch. 2 there are Jewish pilgrims from all over the place gathered in Jerusalem, and so when the disciples begin speaking in various languages the pilgrims recognize the languages as including their own.

According to the Gospel of Luke the reason Joseph took the family to Bethlehem was because of a census, where Jewish men were to go the place of their ancestry. It would make little sense for Roman officials to have Jewish men travel to the places of their ancestry at a time when they were obligated by their religion to be in Jerusalem.

That is to say, given the data in the Gospels, it is simply not feasible for Jesus to have been born at this time.

Additionally, the usual claim that Jesus couldn't have been born during the winter is an oft-toted claim, that there wouldn't have been any shepherds with flocks as the nativity stories say. Except that the fields outside of Bethlehem have been used for millennia for the purpose of shepherds over-wintering the flocks. Even into modern times shepherds have brought their flocks down from the hills into the fields outside of Bethlehem to over-winter them. So it is precisely during winter when we would expect a lot of shepherds and their flocks in the fields outside of Bethlehem.

Some other interesting information: The Jewish kohanim (priests) were divided into several divisions, and priests were rotated throughout the year according to these divisions. Each division served twice during the year, and also all the divisions were supposed to be present at Passover. According to the Gospels Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, was of the division of Abijah. One of the times of the year in which the division of Abijah served was in autumn, September-October-ish. If Zechariah was serving at this time, then that would make Elizabeth's pregnancy with John around this time. According to Luke Elizabeth was six months pregnant when Mary conceived Jesus, this would put Jesus' conception in March-April. And, wouldn't you know, nine months later would be December-January.

Now, none of this says for certain that Jesus was born in the winter. But the whole "Jesus couldn't have been born in December" argument doesn't hold the kind of water some think it does. The data we have from the Gospels themselves provides enough to make a December-January birth as, at least, not only possible but even plausible.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So Jesus could have been born any month of the year. It is known the calendar makers screwed up when they estimated the reign of King Herod and Jesus was actually born about five years before 1 AD.
Check in Jerusalem, with some of the wizened Godly Jews. They were entrusted with the Scripture, and know certainly it could not have been any month. They might even be able to narrow it down for you to within a couple weeks.
But they don't use computers..... maybe not phones either....
 
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JackRT

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Mary lived in Nazareth and went from there to Behlehem, which someone called "the city of David."

There is no record of a comprehensive census of the entire (Roman) world. In those days a census was much different than those of today. In Italy periodic censuses were ordered to enroll all men of military age but this happened only in Italy. Elsewhere in the Empire a census had a quite different purpose --- it was to enroll the value of land and/or business assets for the purpose of taxation. Such a census did not require that people return to their ancient home town. Can you just imagine the massive dislocation that would entail? The Romans were a very practical people and the census was not focused on people at all. The census dealt with land and business in place for the purpose of taxation and likely involved an inspection of the property.
 
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miamited

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Those who argue for a September birth usually use as their rationale that since some of the important events in the life of Christ and the early Church are associated with important high Jewish holy days, then Jesus' birth should be as well. And thus they try to argue that Jesus must have been born during Sukkot, the Jewish Feast of Booths/Tabernacles.

The problem with this theory is that the Gospel stories clearly state that Joseph and the very pregnant Mary traveled from Nazareth to Bethlehem, and that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Note that Joseph is present. This is a huge problem because Sukkot was one of the three pilgrim feasts in Judaism, in which all adult Jewish males were obligated to come to Jerusalem to observe the feast. These feasts are Passover, Shavu'ot (aka "Pentecost"), and Sukkot. This is also why, for example, in Acts ch. 2 there are Jewish pilgrims from all over the place gathered in Jerusalem, and so when the disciples begin speaking in various languages the pilgrims recognize the languages as including their own.

According to the Gospel of Luke the reason Joseph took the family to Bethlehem was because of a census, where Jewish men were to go the place of their ancestry. It would make little sense for Roman officials to have Jewish men travel to the places of their ancestry at a time when they were obligated by their religion to be in Jerusalem.

That is to say, given the data in the Gospels, it is simply not feasible for Jesus to have been born at this time.

Additionally, the usual claim that Jesus couldn't have been born during the winter is an oft-toted claim, that there wouldn't have been any shepherds with flocks as the nativity stories say. Except that the fields outside of Bethlehem have been used for millennia for the purpose of shepherds over-wintering the flocks. Even into modern times shepherds have brought their flocks down from the hills into the fields outside of Bethlehem to over-winter them. So it is precisely during winter when we would expect a lot of shepherds and their flocks in the fields outside of Bethlehem.

Some other interesting information: The Jewish kohanim (priests) were divided into several divisions, and priests were rotated throughout the year according to these divisions. Each division served twice during the year, and also all the divisions were supposed to be present at Passover. According to the Gospels Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, was of the division of Abijah. One of the times of the year in which the division of Abijah served was in autumn, September-October-ish. If Zechariah was serving at this time, then that would make Elizabeth's pregnancy with John around this time. According to Luke Elizabeth was six months pregnant when Mary conceived Jesus, this would put Jesus' conception in March-April. And, wouldn't you know, nine months later would be December-January.

Now, none of this says for certain that Jesus was born in the winter. But the whole "Jesus couldn't have been born in December" argument doesn't hold the kind of water some think it does. The data we have from the Gospels themselves provides enough to make a December-January birth as, at least, not only possible but even plausible.

-CryptoLutheran

Hi viacrucis,

I believe that's the most well thought explanation as I've ever encountered to support a winter time birth of Jesus. I certainly wasn't aware that still to this day, the fields surrounding Bethlehem are used to winter the sheep. I've just always known, as I explained, that the winters in Israel never get cold enough that sheep would have to be enclosed in some warm place.

Thanks for the additional info.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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miamited

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There is no record of a comprehensive census of the entire (Roman) world. In those days a census was much different than those of today. In Italy periodic censuses were ordered to enroll all men of military age but this happened only in Italy. Elsewhere in the Empire a census had a quite different purpose --- it was to enroll the value of land and/or business assets for the purpose of taxation. Such a census did not require that people return to their ancient home town. Can you just imagine the massive dislocation that would entail? The Romans were a very practical people and the census was not focused on people at all. The census dealt with land and business in place for the purpose of taxation and likely involved an inspection of the property.

Hi jack,

So let me see if I've got this straight. You're denying the Scriptures claim, that each man had to return to his hometown for the census.

While you seem so adamant in your claims, I'm sure you must be aware of evidences to the contrary:

Was There Really A Census During the Time of Caesar Augustus?

https://christiananswers.net/q-aiia/census-luke2.html

In doing my research, I came across 'Jews for Judaism', and they make a similar argument as yours. In fact, they use the exact same sentence structure and wording in their responses. I don't know if that's where some of your information comes from, but it would seem a fair question as to why you would believe a group of people who don't understand Jesus as God's Messiah and Savior, if it is your source. It might be well worth considering that their efforts are to try and convince you that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. He didn't fulfill the prophecies of the old covenant concerning himself. So, it is in their best interests to convince you that the biblical account of Jesus' life must be in error.

Just curious, have you ever considered the turmoil and headaches of a similar magnitude as what you describe, at every passover? I'm not sure that traveling fair distances on occasion for both religious and government requirements was necessarily unheard of, or presented great logistical problems in that day. In the Acts of the Apostles, we are told that Jews gathered in Jerusalem for the passover from all over the 'world'! Is that also not a true account?

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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OneOfTheMasters

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Does it matter? For because He was born,we all can have an inheritance in His kingdom!
FB_IMG_1574340785023.jpg
 
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lismore

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Knowing all this, is it likely Jesus was born in the late summer or early fall?

Luke 1:5 gives a date for when Zechariah was in the temple. From this the approximate birthday of Jesus can be worked out.

Jesus also fulfills the old testament law, the feasts of Israel. Which feast of Israel speaks of his birth?

Perhaps Sukkot- the Jews build a tent, a tabernacle and dwell in it for a time. Perhaps this points to our Lord -the word became flesh and tabernacled- dwelt among us.

Equates with September on our calendar I believe.

God Bless :)
 
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miamited

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miamited --- until your post above I was unaware of 'Jews for Judaism'

Hi jack,

No problem. When I read it, it just seemed odd that it used the exact same words in describing the likelihood of Joseph and Mary journeying to Bethlehem. Perhaps they got their information from the same source that you got it from.

I'm not sure that they correctly represent the problem. I'm not sure that in ancient times people did move far away from their ancestral home as much as we might think, based on today's mobility. They describe the effort as total chaos, but I strongly doubt it.

The census, much like ours today, is not a one day in and done operation. It isn't even a one week operation. The total census of the United States today takes several months and that's with all the high speed computers. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the Roman census in question likely took several months and was likely done in sections of the Roman world of that day. So, for example, the census takers in Bethlehem, and the surrounding area of Judea, may have been settled in for a month or so and the people that needed to return would come anytime within that time period to register. So it wouldn't be like everyone hit the road on the same day like we see on Thanksgiving weekend. Then the census takers might move to a different area for another month or so until the entire Roman empire was covered.

The journey from Nazareth to Bethlehem would only take about 5-7 days, even going slow to allow for Mary's condition. It's about 150 Km. As I pointed out in my previous post, there were several occasions for which the Jews traveled fairly great distances to be in Jerusalem for various events.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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