What Is Paul's Definition of NT Prophecy?

[ARBITER01]

On the other hand:

Acts 14: In Lystra there sat a man who was lame. He had been that way from birth and had never walked. 9 He listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed 10 and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” At that, the man jumped up and began to walk.

Paul speaking the truth, the man listened and had faith to be healed - faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

In a court of law a convicted perjurer would not be permitted to testify again on any subject. Why can secular institutions get hold of this basic and necessary measure that seems to elude today's church? Even the world recognizes many of the obvious wolves within the church, a level of discernment that eludes folks who say they have the Holy Spirit.

Plus we have been forewarned- Jesus said 'For many false prophets will appear and mislead many' (Matthew 24:11)

Besides, just because something seemingly supernatural happens does ot automatically mean it is from God:

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and they will provide great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect (Matthew 24:24)

But these miracles are based on a lie. How can we tell a lie? By the word of God and sound truthful doctrine!

God Bless

I think GOD is only able to fix some problems, and He does that by big moves of His Spirit.

 

[lismore]

I think GOD is only able to fix some problems, and He does that by big moves of His Spirit.

I don't think grieving the Spirit will bring a move of the Spirit. God Bless

 

[ARBITER01]

I don't think grieving the Spirit will bring a move of the Spirit. God Bless

lol,.... not everyone is just a church goer.

Some,..... even just a few,.... are moving mightily with GOD right now, But I don't think they are in your area though.

Enjoy your debate.

 

[Johann@P]

Acts 21:11
11. καὶ ἐλθὼν … δήσας ἑαντοῦ τοὺς πόδας καὶ τὰς χεῖρας, and coming … he bound his own feet and hands. The adoption by Agabus of this figurative action makes it almost certain that the man was a Jew. Similar actions are common in the Old Testament prophets. Thus Isaiah (Act_20:3) walks naked and barefoot. Jeremiah (Act_13:5) hides his girdle by the river Euphrates, and (Act_19:10-11) breaks the potter’s vessel in the Valley of Hinnom; Ezekiel (Act_4:1-3) draws on a tile a picture of the siege of Jerusalem, and (Act_5:1-4) cuts off his hair and burns and destroys it as God commanded. So too Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made horns of iron (1Ki_22:11). With this act of Agabus may be compared our Lord’s words to St Peter (Joh_21:18).
The girdle was that band with which the loose Oriental robe was drawn together at the waist. It was of considerable size, and served the purposes of a pocket, the money being carried in it. To judge from the verb (ἄρας) employed in describing the prophet’s action, it seems that St Paul had laid aside his girdle and that it was taken up by Agabus from the place where it lay.
τάδε λέγει τὸ πν. τ. ἅ., thus saith the Holy Ghost. That we may the better note the Apostle’s zeal for carrying out the Lord’s will, we are once more told how the Holy Ghost made known to him through others that he was about to be made a prisoner. Still we see him go forward unmoved, because though others might know that he was to suffer, and might in their affection strive to hold him back, he was convinced that such suffering was the Lord’s way for him. Therefore he went on.

‘In this way the Jews in Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and hand him over to the Gentiles.’

Not a prediction ??? Really.... .......Right

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The difference between OT prophecy and NT prophecy is that the OT prophecies were recorded as holy Scripture. But NT wasn't. If NT prophecy was at the level of holy Scripture, you would think that all the prophecies spoken in the New Testament churches would have been written down and preserved as Scripture. But we have no NT prophecies as part of the canon of Scripture, therefore it shows that those who made up the canon did not recognise NT prophecies as holy Scripture.

Also, if NT prophecy was to be recognised as Scripture, how come Paul says that if a person is prophesying, and someone else has a revelation, the first one should stop speaking and sit down. This means that the first person's prophecy is lost. That seems to contradict the notion that NT prophecy is to be treated as the direct voice of God and therefore preserved as holy Scripture.

If all NT prophecies from all the first century churches were to be preserved as holy Scripture, we should have a much extending New Testament that would be made up of many volumes filling an entire library. Because there are none, this shows that NT prophecy is at a lower level of authority than the OT ones. In fact, NT prophecy has a totally different purpose and is not meant to convey the direct voice of God. The problem is that many are of the mistaken view that NT prophecy is the direct voice of God and that is why they say "Thus says the Lord". In fact, it is not the Lord speaking at all. It is the person's own spirit speaking encouragement, exhortation and comfort, and it becomes prophetic for the person or group receiving it. This is why NT prophetic utterances are to be tested by those experienced and mature in the Scriptures to ensure that what is said is consistent with holy Scripture, and that the person prophesying is a fit person to be giving prophetic utterances in church. Many shonky prophecies have been given by people who are either not genuinely born again, full of pride, novices in the faith, or have unconfessed habitual sins that are corrupting what they are saying.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

But we have no NT prophecies as part of the canon of Scripture, therefore it shows that those who made up the canon did not recognise NT prophecies as holy Scripture.

Um..... John's Visions recorded in the book of Revelation.... not to mention some of Jesus's prophecies like "Oh... Jerusalem, Jerusalem" recorded in the Gospels and this also includes other prophetic actions like cursing the Fig tree.


I do believe there is a difference in the NT and the OT on the role of the prophet, but this stems from the office of the Apostle being prominent in the NT, rather than the office of the prophet. I believe the prophet is overall less prominent because of the Incarnation of Christ, the founding of the Church an we are receiving a better covenant than the OT one.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Um..... John's Visions recorded in the book of Revelation.... not to mention some of Jesus's prophecies like "Oh... Jerusalem, Jerusalem" recorded in the Gospels and this also includes other prophetic actions like cursing the Fig tree.


I do believe there is a difference in the NT and the OT on the role of the prophet, but this stems from the office of the Apostle being prominent in the NT, rather than the office of the prophet. I believe the prophet is overall less prominent because of the Incarnation of Christ, the founding of the Church an we are receiving a better covenant than the OT one.

Those who gave prophecies in the Corinthian church and obviously all the other churches were not prophets as one of five fold ministry of Prophet. They were just ordinary believers who spoke words of encouragement, exhortation and comfort. They were not speaking Scripture. This type of prophecy was not limited to the Apostles. Paul told the Corinthians that they could all prophesy one by one. That is the difference between reading the actual Scripture record and making up stuff and reading it into the record.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Why does prophesy have to be included in scripture to be considered genuine?

Agabus was surely genuine but only one of his prophesies is recorded...

 

[ARBITER01]

Why does prophesy have to be included in scripture to be considered genuine?

Agabus was surely genuine but only one of his prophesies is recorded...

It doesn't. It's a made up standard that people have thrown together to try and gauge what true prophecy is,..... by people who don't know what true prophecy is.

There were different prophets in the OT. Ones that wrote scripture, ones that GOD used predominantly in power, ones that GOD used to foretell and give warnings, etc.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It doesn't. It's a made up standard that people have thrown together to try and gauge what true prophecy is,..... by people who don't know what true prophecy is.

There were different prophets in the OT. Ones that wrote scripture, ones that GOD used predominantly in power, ones that GOD used to foretell and give warnings, etc.

I don't believe that Paul viewed the prophecies that the Corinthian believers gave were equal to holy Scripture, and yet he fully supported them giving prophecies. The prophecies were totally genuine because they were for encouragement, exhortation and comfort. The OT prophecies resulted from direct "thus says the Lord" quotations, and therefore were holy Scripture because of that. NT prophecies are not "thus says the Lord", and that is why they were and are not to be treated as holy Scripture. I think that people saying "This is what the Lord is saying" are putting more authority on their prophecies than appropriate. Nowhere does Paul say that someone giving a prophecy was giving a direct word from the Lord. To attach "thus says the Lord" to a NT prophecy is taking the Lord's name in vain. I believe that a word of encouragement, exhortation, and comfort is prophetic only when the person or persons discern it is as it strikes a chord of confirmation to them. Those attaching the Lord's name to a prophetic word is doing nothing more than using the gift as a means of power and control over others. This is not the intention of NT prophecy. It is not designed to take the place of holy Scripture, and every prophecy has to be tested against the Scripture to validate that it is consistent with what the Scripture teaches.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Why does prophesy have to be included in scripture to be considered genuine?

Agabus was surely genuine but only one of his prophesies is recorded...

The Lutheran pastor Chris Rosebrough teaches on his "Fighting for the Faith" Youtube channel that all prophecy is equal to Scripture because they come directly from the Lord Himself. I believe that he is influenced by false prophets who are saying that their prophecies are what the Lord is directly saying to the people. If those prophecies are genuine, then yes, they should be preserved as holy Scripture because the Lord has spoken directly through them as He did through the OT prophets.

But I don't believe that NT believers who prophesy are prophets in that sense. Their prophetic words do not come directly from the mouth of God. If they preface their prophecies with "Thus says the Lord", they are taking the Lord's name in vain. If we want to give words directly from the Lord then we should take a passage of holy Scripture and read it out loud. The only part of the prophetic word that we can accurately say is directly from the Lord is when a verse of Scripture is quoted as part of that word.

I like Michael Brown's view of NT prophecy. He says that it is not at the same level as OT prophecy which came directly from God to the prophet. He says that NT prophecy is at a lower level and does not come with the same authority. It is different from OT prophecy in that it is designed to encourage, exhort, and comfort the believers. Of course it has to be consistent with the Scriptures to be genuine. A prophecy that says that the moon is made up of green cheese and the man in the moon is God, is obvious false because there is no consistency with Scripture at all. In the same way a prophetic work that says that a believer is going to become famous and wealthy and never have any sickness in his life, is also false because it is not consistent with what the Scripture shows us. It is also true that a false prophecy can quote Scripture out of context to make it mean something different to what it should mean. Overall, a prophecy that points to the person being a better person instead of pointing the person to Jesus Christ should be judged as false, because Christian maturity is not about us becoming better persons. And we have to be careful that people are pointed to the right Jesus through the prophetic word. A Jesus who is a friend who is more love than justice, who does not require repentance from sin and holiness of life, is another Jesus and not the Jesus of the Bible. There is a false teacher who says that he has a personal friendship with Jesus and he can advise Jesus what to do in some situations, and that when Jesus feels bad, he can encourage Him.

This is why genuine NT prophecies depend on the person being a person of prayer and mature in his knowledge of the Word of God. Then he can know that when he gives a prophetic word he has the confidence that it is genuine.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I have decided to start my own thread about this, instead of hijacking someone else's.

What I see in 1 Corinthians 14:3, "But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men."

Notice what Paul includes in his definition of prophecy and what he leaves out. He says that New Testament prophecy is for edification (building up faith in Christ), exhortation (to put trust in Christ), and comfort (assurance of God's help in times of trial). Also, further down in the chapter he includes "instruction".

Now, notice what Paul does not include in his definition. He does not include "guidance", nor does he include "prediction". What this means that guidance and prediction are not elements of New Testament prophecy, if we are to accept that Paul is writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

If we examine the type of false prophecies that have caused the most harm to believers, we see that they consist mainly in guidance, both corporate and personal; and prediction of future events (which never actually come to pass). But there have been many true and genuine prophecies that have done much to build up believers' faith in Christ, have motivated them to trust Christ in every circumstance, and given precious comfort to grieving believers, and those struggling with persecution and trials of their faith. Also many good prophecies have included instruction in righteousness in order to keep believers on the path of sound doctrine.

When prophecies are given, they must be evaluated. Paul taught the Thessalonians to "test all things and hold to that which is good." The test is to determine the effect that the prophecy has on the listeners. If a prophecy is given and no one understands what is being said, then the prophecy fails the test, because it has said nothing of substance and therefore falls short of Paul's definition of prophecy. If a prophecy predicts a future event such as "this year there will be a wave of refreshing across the body of Christ with signs, wonders, and miracles" and nothing happens by the end of the year, then it also fails the test because what was predicted never happened.

The Scripture says "31 I am against the false prophets,” says the Lord. “They use their own words and pretend it is a message from me. 32 I am against the prophets who prophesy false dreams,” says the Lord. “They mislead my people with their lies and false teachings! I did not send them or command them to do anything for me. They can’t help the people of Judah at all,” says the Lord. 33 “Suppose the people of Judah, a prophet, or a priest asks you: ‘Jeremiah, what is the message from the Lord?’ You will answer them and say, ‘You are a heavy load to the Lord, and I will throw you down, says the Lord.’" (Jeremiah 23:31-3).

These are very sobering words, because it is very clear that our modern false prophets are not born again if God has declared that He is against them.

The first distinction of NT Prophets is they do not say "thus saith the Lord" as they did in the OT.

As 1st Thessalonians Chapter 5 iterates that we are to consider all prophecies and keep what is good about them, and toss away what is bad about them.

In the OT, no one would be commended for weighing the words of a prophet, they might even be struck dead. However, in this particular time period, this is what we are instructed to do.

 

[ARBITER01]

The first distinction of NT Prophets is they do not say "thus saith the Lord" as they did in the OT.

Didn't Agabus do that very thing?,...

Act 21:11 And, coming to us, and taking Paul's girdle, binding his own feet and hands, he said, "Thus saith the Holy Spirit, so shall the Jews in Jerusalem bind the man who owns this girdle, and shall deliver him up into the hands of the gentiles.

Anytime a person is speaking by utterance of The Holy Spirit, we should expect that person to acknowledge that it is not them speaking but GOD, and we should have the edification within us happen during the message to know that it is Him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Didn't Agabus do that very thing?,...

Act 21:11 And, coming to us, and taking Paul's girdle, binding his own feet and hands, he said, "Thus saith the Holy Spirit, so shall the Jews in Jerusalem bind the man who owns this girdle, and shall deliver him up into the hands of the gentiles.

Anytime a person is speaking by utterance of The Holy Spirit, we should expect that person to acknowledge that it is not them speaking but GOD, and we should have the edification within us happen during the message to know that it is Him.

Agabus was a recognised ministry prophet. This is why both his prophecies are recorded in the New Testament as part of holy Scripture. None of the Corinthian believers were prophets in the same way. I know that it is common Pentecostal practice to say "Thus says the Lord" as part of prophecies, but we must take notice of the Scripture and not assume that every NT prophecy is at the same level as those of Agabus. Obviously, Agabus would have spoke many more prophecies as prophet, but the Holy Spirit saw it appropriate not to include them as part of holy Scripture as were the many Corinthian church prophecies not recorded.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Agabus was a recognised ministry prophet. This is why both his prophecies are recorded in the New Testament as part of holy Scripture. None of the Corinthian believers were prophets in the same way. I know that it is common Pentecostal practice to say "Thus says the Lord" as part of prophecies, but we must take notice of the Scripture and not assume that every NT prophecy is at the same level as those of Agabus. Obviously, Agabus would have spoke many more prophecies as prophet, but the Holy Spirit saw it appropriate not to include them as part of holy Scripture as were the many Corinthian church prophecies not recorded.

So the matter of them being in scripture or not has no bearing on what is genuine today if you believe that we have a closed Cannon.

God could enable such a gift for our age if He wanted to.

The two witnesses will surely have divine empowering like the OT prophets and they will be empowered members of the body of Christ.

Sure the claim to be speaking 100% His Word is presumptuous given that we are imperfect human vessels.

Prophesy in the NT was to be offered for weighing, not proclaimed as infallible. Even Agabus would have been in mutual submission.

Sure He said 'Thus says the Lord' but in heart he would always be operating as a servant in submission.

This posture of heart does not lessen the impact of what the Spirit wants to convey.

There are folks who operate a strong prophetic gift but they are unlikely to be prominent in 'Modern Church' circles where politics will likely close them down.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So the matter of them being in scripture or not has no bearing on what is genuine today if you believe that we have a closed Cannon.

God could enable such a gift for our age if He wanted to.

The two witnesses will surely have divine empowering like the OT prophets and they will be empowered members of the body of Christ.

Sure the claim to be speaking 100% His Word is presumptuous given that we are imperfect human vessels.

Prophesy in the NT was to be offered for weighing, not proclaimed as infallible. Even Agabus would have been in mutual submission.

Sure He said 'Thus says the Lord' but in heart he would always be operating as a servant in submission.

This posture of heart does not lessen the impact of what the Spirit wants to convey.

There are folks who operate a strong prophetic gift but they are unlikely to be prominent in 'Modern Church' circles where politics will likely close them down.

The interesting thing about Agabus' warning to Paul, is that in spite of Agabus clearly saying that it was the Holy Spirit warning Paul, Paul decided not to obey the warning and went to Jerusalem anyway. Does that mean that Paul was disobeying the Holy Spirit, or that he had discretion whether to comply with the warning or not?

Although a prophecy should not be prefaced with "thus says the Lord" (which actually puts the kybosh on other being able to judge the prophecy because it would be difficult to tell someone who asserts the name of the Lord in the prophecy that his prophecy is not genuine), the resulting evaluation by mature, experienced members of the body of Christ can affirm it is genuine, if the person prophesying is an appropriate person to be able to give prophetic words, and that the word itself is consistent with God's aims and objectives as set out in the Scriptures.

A prophetic word can be ex-Biblical, but not non-Biblical. It cannot contain new revelation that is not already shown in the Bible. It can contain what we know what God would say to us given His nature and character. It also must, in some way, reflect the true Gospel of Christ, therefore it must support the free grace of God and not compliance with the Mosaic Law. It also must not reveal sin in a believer because the complete debt of sin has been fully paid for when Jesus bled and died on the Cross.

What made some OT false prophecies was that they encouraged going after other gods and idols with related immoral conduct. It was this type of prophecy that was a factor that caused the downfall of Israel and Judah. Therefore any NT prophecy that points to man instead of Christ has to be false. Guaranteed health, prosperity and wealth, fame or anything else that turns a heart away from Christ is an idol, and therefore any prophecy that guarantees health, wealth, self-promotion and fame is automatically false.

Otherwise, any believer who loves the Lord and who shows the fruit of repentance from sin and has a genuine desire to live a holy life, and loves the body of Christ is more than likely to give genuine Spirit inspired prophecies that will encourage, exhort, and comfort others, because he is pursuing love as Paul instructed.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Didn't Agabus do that very thing?,...

Act 21:11 And, coming to us, and taking Paul's girdle, binding his own feet and hands, he said, "Thus saith the Holy Spirit, so shall the Jews in Jerusalem bind the man who owns this girdle, and shall deliver him up into the hands of the gentiles.

Anytime a person is speaking by utterance of The Holy Spirit, we should expect that person to acknowledge that it is not them speaking but GOD, and we should have the edification within us happen during the message to know that it is Him.

However, it still stands that even if someone does say .. "this is what God is saying" we are to weigh what they say based on what is true and of good character.

They can insist on us keeping to the parts we "throw out" but that's just covetousness on their part.

 

[ARBITER01]

However, it still stands that even if someone does say .. "this is what God is saying" we are to weigh what they say based on what is true and of good character.

They can insist on us keeping to the parts we "throw out" but that's just covetousness on their part.

When Agabus prophesied what was going to happen with Paul, it wasn't aligned with scripture, nor did they break out parchments and compare his words,.... it was witnessed by The Holy Spirit inside them.

That is the proof.

This has went on here for quite some time, where people have a theoretical knowledge of some of these gifts and their operations in the assembly but are not really experienced in them at all to know any better.

People who GOD have prophesying in the assembly at times are normally not speaking words of prediction, they are speaking edification, exhortation, and comfort to that body. The message will be different for each church body. It always is.

Some people are seasoned people with their gifts, some people are fairly new. That brings a whole other aspect to how accurate a prophesying can be through folks. Some people start out allowing The Holy Spirit to speak freely, but are then overwhelmed with thoughts that try to take over the message, hence why a person might have a good strong witness of The Holy Spirit happening at first, but then that disappears through the message because the flesh entered into it and ruined it.

This is why messages from The Holy Spirit are to be judged in each assembly. It helps people become proficient with their gifts, and makes the message more pure from them over time.

 

[Carl Emerson]

We are close to agreement on this with minor exceptions..

Paul was being notified in advance concerning what would happen to him in Jerusalem. I don't think he went in disobedience to the Holy Spirit.

You seem to disagree with yourself on one point.

You say prophesy can be ex-biblical - I agree with this.

Then you say it cannot contain new revelation that is not already shown in the bible - I don't agree with this.

Maybe you need to explain what you mean by ex-biblical.

Non-biblical would mean in contradiction to the Word - no problem with excluding this.

Ex-biblical includes many things Jesus said that were not recorded. We cant exclude what God has said that is not recorded. Neither can we exclude what God will say that is not recorded. Any such Words however will harmonise with what is already written.

Then you say a prophetic word must not reveal sin in a believer. I disagree with this.

I have personally taken a Word in writing to a Pastor after praying over it for a year.

It revealed that his son was sleeping with a lady in the church.

It also predicted that if the matter was not sorted God would stop folks from attending his church.

The Word was rejected - the church shrunk from 150 to 15 - later I heard that others had the same Word and eventually the truth was uncovered.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

When Agabus prophesied what was going to happen with Paul, it wasn't aligned with scripture, nor did they break out parchments and compare his words,.... it was witnessed by The Holy Spirit inside them.

That is the proof.

This has went on here for quite some time, where people have a theoretical knowledge of some of these gifts and their operations in the assembly but are not really experienced in them at all to know any better.

People who GOD have prophesying in the assembly at times are normally not speaking words of prediction, they are speaking edification, exhortation, and comfort to that body. The message will be different for each church body. It always is.

Some people are seasoned people with their gifts, some people are fairly new. That brings a whole other aspect to how accurate a prophesying can be through folks. Some people start out allowing The Holy Spirit to speak freely, but are then overwhelmed with thoughts that try to take over the message, hence why a person might have a good strong witness of The Holy Spirit happening at first, but then that disappears through the message because the flesh entered into it and ruined it.

This is why messages from The Holy Spirit are to be judged in each assembly. It helps people become proficient with their gifts, and makes the message more pure from them over time.

However, the book of acts does not trump the rest of the new testament writings.