The plan of creation: Did God create humans to prove a point?

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, but who is the "power" behind false teachers? Scoffing is probably a cover. They don't want to be discovered.
Like "the man behind the curtain" in the Wizard of Oz.

In fact, to read Peter and Jude and others concerning false teachers, it almost sounds like they are becoming one and the same with the demon/demonic force that compels them.

 

[bling]

Such reason being nowhere presented in Scripture, but a product of your own invention, as are other such notions you present.

This goes back to Jesus' teaching in Luke 7 where we have: he who is forgiven much Loves much.
You can either put the blame for the lost, on man or God and God would not be the problem, so do you feel God is to blame?
There are excellent books on Godly type Love taking from multiple scriptures, which I was hoping to avoid writing my own book for you, since we were probably in agreement on most points:
Do you believe God is the epitome of Love?
Do you believe this Godly type Love cannot be made instinctive (robotic) to man?
Do you believe God could just make is have Godly type Love against our will?
Forgiving is an act of Love and God being Love makes Him a Forgiver?
Do you believe man can make a free will choice to go to the banquet and/or party for a prodigal brother?

Indeed it is, the parable states nothing about the father's capacity to forgive.

We do not have the "capacity" of the Father (representing God) to forgive just a huge Love being demonstrated in His forgiving the prodigal son, What do you see as God's limit to forgive, beside the unforgivable sin?

 

[bling]

Accepting forgiveness is accepting salvation. To believe is the first step. It's a choice. To "repent" in the ancient hebrew is literally to "change one's mind".

I have taught several people burdened by past intentional actions which hurt other people. These individuals had tried lot of other remedied like, work, drugs, sex, religions and parties to relieve this burden to no avail. Understanding and accepting God's forgiving them, did help, talking about all the other gifts God showered on them was icing on the cake. Yes, they had to believe and turn away (repent).

 

[YahuahSaves]

I have taught several people burdened by past intentional actions which hurt other people. These individuals had tried lot of other remedied like, work, drugs, sex, religions and parties to relieve this burden to no avail. Understanding and accepting God's forgiving them, did help, talking about all the other gifts God showered on them was icing on the cake. Yes, they had to believe and turn away (repent).

And pick up their cross 》and follow Christ.... like I said, a lot more to salvation than many people think.

 

[Clare73]

This goes back to Jesus' teaching in Luke 7 where we have: he who is forgiven much Loves much.

Which has nothing to do with your notion of forgiveness.

You can either put the blame for the lost, on man or God and God would not be the problem, so do you feel God is to blame?
There are excellent books on Godly type Love taking from multiple scriptures, which I was hoping to avoid writing my own book for you, since we were probably in agreement on most points:
Do you believe God is the epitome of Love?
Do you believe this Godly type Love cannot be made instinctive (robotic) to man?
Do you believe God could just make is have Godly type Love against our will?
Forgiving is an act of Love and God being Love makes Him a Forgiver?
Do you believe man can make a free will choice to go to the banquet and/or party for a prodigal brother?

We do not have the "capacity" of the Father (representing God) to forgive just a huge Love being demonstrated in His forgiving the prodigal son, What do you see as God's limit to forgive, beside the unforgivable sin?

Why do you ask?

 

[bling]

I think the problem is you're suggesting there is nothing more to following Christ than to simply "humbly accept forgiveness". There's more to it than that.

Humbly accepting being forgiven automatically provided you with an unbelievable huge Love (Luke 7) and with that Love you can be compelled to do everything wonderful, but without that "Love":
! cor. 13: 1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

 

[bling]

And pick up their cross 》and follow Christ.... like I said, a lot more to salvation than many people think.

God's Love compels them to do good works.

 

[bling]

Which has nothing to do with your notion of forgiveness.

Luke 7:
36 When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. 37 A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. 38 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.”

40 Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”

“Tell me, teacher,” he said.

41 “Two people owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[c] and the other fifty. 42 Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”

43 Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.”

“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.

44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”

48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Jesus is stating there is a direct relationship between forgiving and Love.

Why do you ask?

The only limit I put on God is with the unforgivable sin, so the reason people do not experience God's forgiving them is because they do not accept God forgiving them. But if you have another reason, I would like to hear it so I might change my conclusion.

 

[Saint Steven]

The plan of creation: Did God create humans to prove a point?​

My theory is God (being omniscient), knew before he created everything, what was going to happen with some of his created beings, and so his masterplan was to display his glory (his ultimate power and authority) through his creation? It seems this way to me after delving into the scriptures. What say you?

Trying to mentally process your OP. I quoted the premise (your theory) and the topic title above.
Below I have posted all of your main points. And added commentary.

Let's start with the fact that God is all-knowing:

I agree.

Before God created everything (and us) he already had a plan on how he would ultimately display his glory:

Yes, I believe there was a plan. But I don't think the goal was to display his glory. Which should be obvious. (his glory, I mean)

God (the Father) created the world through the Son (the lamb/the word/Jesus Christ):

One or two NT verses declare this. But perhaps we misunderstand how it actually worked.
Was Jesus actually known by that name before "the Word became flesh"?

Note: the "authorities" in the unseen world (See video below)

Saw the video, thanks. Currently watching the whole series. Thanks again.

God created human beings in his image to reign over creation on the Earth:

I agree.

Then the temptation and fall: (my theory is that because satan was an arch angel, and part of the divine council, perhaps this temptation was agreed upon?) But only God knew what the outcome would be. I also never thought of this before, but the serpent knows about good and evil. (Or, knows of it?)

Interesting. Mostly agree. Certainly God foreknew the outcome. Which begs the question; Why would he put this in motion? To what end?
I don't think it was to display his glory, authority, and power. All of which are obvious and don't need to be proven. Unless you can think of a reason.

Seems more likely that the PURPOSE relates to the OUTCOME. Where will this end?

An example here that anyone hiding from God, and him not "knowing" what happened is impossible, as he is omniscient:

Agree.

In certain parts of scripture, God seems to give satan a certain amount of leeway, but he seems to have lost his position in how God curses him:

Agree, for the most part. Not sure about the curse. Crawling on the belly was for the serpent, who probably had legs beforehand.
The crush your head/bite his heel part was for Satan.

He hasn't been cast to earth after the fall of humanity as he's still able to interact with God, and even suggest more temptation, so he must still be part of the divine council, but in a lowly position:

Contradicts your next point?

So, when was the adversary cast to earth?

Doesn't this contradict the previous point? Maybe this verse was in the link?
But I think it was temporary, not final. Kicked out of the Divine Council meeting?

Luke 10:17-19 NIV
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and
to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

I'm thinking by the time he knew about Jesus:

See above.

So where do we fit in as the fallen creation?

We discussed this earlier.

The key word that we find throughout scripture, is glory.

Lots of key words. This one helps your topic, but the premise needs some work. IMHO

What is God's "glory"?

Something he doesn't need to PROVE to anyone. Displaying his glory, authority, and power would be narcisism if a human did it. So... I put more weight on God's good character than to claim that.

So essentially, we're part of a spiritual battle:

Yes, of course.
Not sure what this has to with the topic title or premise.


I don't see how this OP supports the topic title or premise. Am I missing something here?

 

[ViaCrucis]

St. Paul writes in Colossians, "All things were made by Him and for Him" concerning the Lord Jesus.

He is before all things, and is Lord over all things, and all things exist because of Him. He is the reason that all things exist, and He is the meaning behind the existence of all things.

God didn't prove a point. The universe exists because it is the will of God that all exists and that all things are summed up in His only-begotten Son.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to sum up all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth." - Ephesians 1:3-10

"He is the Icon of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the Head of the Body, the Church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of Deity was pleased to dwell, and t hrough Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross." - Colossians 1:15-20

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him is life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." - John 1:1-5

And to add a bit of commentary from one of my favorite writers, Hans Urs von Balthasar from his work Credo: Meditations on the Apostles' Creed,

"God’s love is so complete in itself—he is lover, responding beloved, and union of the fruit of both—that he has need of no extradivine world in order to have something to love. If such a world is freely created by God, apart from any compelling need, then this occurs, from the viewpoint of the Father, in order to glorify the beloved Son; from the viewpoint of the loving Son, in order to lay everything as a gift at the Father’s feet; and from the viewpoint of the Spirit, in order to lend new expression to the reciprocal love between Father and Son. Hence, the one triune God is Creator of the world. If this creation is attributed specifically to the Father, then that is because, within God, he is the Origin behind which nothing more can be sought." - Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar, Credo (Kindle Edition)

-CryptoLutheran

 

[YahuahSaves]

Humbly accepting being forgiven automatically provided you with an unbelievable huge Love (Luke 7) and with that Love you can be compelled to do everything wonderful, but without that "Love":
! cor. 13: 1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Yes, but first of all^ those things are done by the work of the Holy Spirit in us and through us. Secondly, it's a daily choice to abide in Christ's love and do the will of the Father.

 

[YahuahSaves]

God's Love compels them to do good works.

You're still assuming there's no choice involved. We don't become robots because we're saved.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I don't see how this OP supports the topic title or premise. Am I missing something here?

There were too many relevant scriptures that I didn't add because of the length of the post and the time of night. It's 4.30am here now so I'll check back in and respond later.

 

[bling]

Yes, but first of all^ those things are done by the work of the Holy Spirit in us and through us. Secondly, it's a daily choice to abide in Christ's love and do the will of the Father.

What do you feel is the relationship between the indwelling Holy Spirit and Godly type Love in us?

 

[Clare73]

St. Paul writes in Colossians, "All things were made by Him and for Him" concerning the Lord Jesus. He is before all things, and is Lord over all things, and all things exist because of Him. He is the reason that all things exist, and He is the meaning behind the existence of all things.
God didn't prove a point. The universe exists because it is the will of God that all exists and that all things are summed up in His only-begotten Son.

The glory of the Son being the Father's main purpose in creation.

God showing forth his glory (e.g., in his wisdom) is not proving a point, it is manifesting his glory.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to sum up all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth." - Ephesians 1:3-10

"He is the Icon of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the Head of the Body, the Church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of Deity was pleased to dwell, and t hrough Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross." - Colossians 1:15-20

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him is life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." - John 1:1-5

And to add a bit of commentary from one of my favorite writers, Hans Urs von Balthasar from his work Credo: Meditations on the Apostles' Creed,

"God’s love is so complete in itself—he is lover, responding beloved, and union of the fruit of both—that he has need of no extradivine world in order to have something to love. If such a world is freely created by God, apart from any compelling need, then this occurs, from the viewpoint of the Father, in order to glorify the beloved Son; from the viewpoint of the loving Son, in order to lay everything as a gift at the Father’s feet; and from the viewpoint of the Spirit, in order to lend new expression to the reciprocal love between Father and Son. Hence, the one triune God is Creator of the world. If this creation is attributed specifically to the Father, then that is because, within God, he is the Origin behind which nothing more can be sought." - Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar, Credo (Kindle Edition)

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bling]

You're still assuming there's no choice involved. We don't become robots because we're saved.

We always have the power (free will) to quench the Spirit and Godly type Love.

 

[Sheila Davis]

Are you familiar with the Bible?

I am not seeking anyone's agreement or disagreement

They are legitimate questions - food for thought


Yes I am very familiar with the Bible

And I know there is so much God has not revealed to men as of yet.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The glory of the Son being the Father's main purpose in creation.

God showing forth his glory (e.g., in his wisdom) is not proving a point, it is manifesting his glory.

Right. He did what He did because it is the Father's will to give all things to His Son, even as it is the Son's will to give all things to the Father, and it is the Spirit's will to always give and be given from and to the Father and the Son. So that in all things God is glorified. God's glory is not a glory of divine selfishness, it is the glory of divine selfless-ness: God's everlasting love and giving Himself away.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

I am not seeking anyone's agreement or disagreement

They are legitimate questions - food for thought


Yes I am very familiar with the Bible

And I know there is so much God has not revealed to men as of yet.

Much of that is dealt with in the Bible.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Yes, I believe there was a plan. But I don't think the goal was to display his glory. Which should be obvious. (his glory, I mean)

Is it obvious to everyone? it should be, but perhaps it's the flesh working against the spirit.

Romans 1:18-23
God’s Anger at Sin

18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.[a] 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles

One or two NT verses declare this. But perhaps we misunderstand how it actually worked.
Was Jesus actually known by that name before "the Word became flesh"?

Jesus is God, I have my own beliefs about his name, but not everyone will agree. His hebrew name while on earth literally meant "YHWH is salvation".

Interesting. Mostly agree. Certainly God foreknew the outcome. Which begs the question; Why would he put this in motion? To what end?
I don't think it was to display his glory, authority, and power. All of which are obvious and don't need to be proven. Unless you can think of a reason.

Seems more likely that the PURPOSE relates to the OUTCOME. Where will this end?

Read my other comments. You're asking the same question repeatedly, so I've answered it once.

Agree, for the most part. Not sure about the curse. Crawling on the belly was for the serpent, who probably had legs beforehand.
The crush your head/bite his heel part was for Satan.

You don't think the serpent is satan?

I think the lack of legs is symbolism for being a "lowly" creature.

Contradicts your next point?

How so?

Doesn't this contradict the previous point? Maybe this verse was in the link?
But I think it was temporary, not final. Kicked out of the Divine Council meeting?

Well, don't forget, when satan was cast down, is all speculation because the scriptures aren't entirely clear.

Luke 10:17-19 NIV
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and
to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

I thought of this^ verse too but it's as though satan no longer interacted in the divine council by the time Jesus was born.
My (guess) is when in Job satan says he came from "patrolling the earth" he was given dominion for a time, but once Jesus was born, the plan of all things being put under his authority, Satan then knew he would never be able to overthrow God. (It amazes me that he actually thought there was a chance he could). I don't know, there's more layers to this than my OP allowed for.

Something he doesn't need to PROVE to anyone. Displaying his glory, authority, and power would be narcisism if a human did it. So... I put more weight on God's good character than to claim that.

If you read the ancient hebrew I linked about God's glory literally meaning "battle armaments", how does God do battle?

John 1:1-5
RSV
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (YLT & KJV versions say "comprehend it" or "perceive it").



Also, Hebrews 1:3 , John 1:14 , 1 Peter 3:18-22 , Revelation 21:7

Now here, are the rulers and authorities being triumphed over the Pharisees or satan, or both?

Colossians 2:15

15 In this way, he disarmed[a] the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.


There are plenty of scriptures that talk about Christ's victory, and in HIM how we also have the victory.

Ephesians 6:10-18
The Whole Armor of God

10 A final word: Be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on all of God’s armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies of the devil. 12 For we[a] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

13 Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm. 14 Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of God’s righteousness. 15 For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good News so that you will be fully prepared. 16 In addition to all of these, hold up the shield of faith to stop the fiery arrows of the devil.[c] 17 Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

18 Pray in the Spirit at all times and on every occasion. Stay alert and be persistent in your prayers for all believers everywhere.[d]

Many believe the "sword of the spirit, word of God" is the bible. I think it's also the Holy Spirit working within us and through us.

2 Corinthians 3:18 , Romans 8:4 , Philippians 3:10 , Colossians 1:27 , 1 Peter 2:9 , Romans 8:14 , Romans 8:11 , 2 Corinthians 2:14 , Deuteronomy 20:4 , Romans 8:37 ,
1 Corinthians 15:57 , 1 John 5:4

Yes, of course.
Not sure what this has to with the topic title or premise.

You ask to what end? This scripture also sheds light on it.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

(now this makes it sound like Jesus isn't equal to God,) but I believe he's part of God, but God the Father is the authority. The Father created everything through the Son.