When did humans first start to speak? How language evolved in Africa

[Diamond72]

Do you mean *before* it was written into the Jewish scripture? (Because the whole thing is written out now and has been for at least 2000 years.)

I am talking about the scrolls from the time of Moses 3200 years ago. Moses wrote in Papyrus. It is a form of paper. Before this, they used clay tablets and some of what we receive from Moses is said to have come from clay tablets.

It is like having the lyrics to a song with no capitals, no sentences just words. Then they memorized the music and the Bible was made to be read out loud for people to listen with their ears. We would pretty much be lost in our understanding without oral traditions. The Rabbi has lots of commentaries. They say if you have four Rabbi you have five opinions. But they do not add anything to what they receive from Moses.

You can look at the article in Wiki. That explains it a lot better than I can.

Oral Torah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Diamond72]

Capital letters (or rather upper and lower case) are an invention of the last 2000 years.

We can see that in the dead sea scrolls. We would be lost if it were not for the oral tradition. Or at least it would be very difficult. Like trying to sing a song with just the lyrics and no music.

 

[Diamond72]

They add marks to the Torah so people are able to read.

 

[AV1611VET]

A lot of the Old Testament is oral tradition and was not written at all. In the original there are no capitals, there are no sentences or any structure at all. It would be like having the lyrics to a song but no music.

I'm KJB all the way.

Gail A Riplinger & Peter S Ruckman fan!

 

[Diamond72]

I'm KJB all the way.

The KJV is the only authorized version. Although all of the problems began with the NASB. There is still a lot that does not get translated so I like to go back to study the original Hebrew text. I esp do not like words like "it" and "everything". The word of God is not an it or a thing and we should have more respect.

 

[AV1611VET]

The word of God is not an it or a thing and we should have more respect.

Unless it's a typo, you'll always see me capitalize "It," when referring to the King James Bible and Its authorized Predecessors.

QV please my pet theory about the Source Documents:

Post 1243

 

[dlamberth]

Your assumption appears to be that cultures need middle east concepts to have "depth" of human experiences. Too, you omitted part of my point. To wit, that the ME likely can't handle Navajo concepts and thus cut "short the depth of human experiences."

Middle East languages add the spiritual aspect to that depth of human experiences. Their languages reflect that.

Sorry. An important miss-understanding of American Indians perceptions of life and how it differed from English is in how they experienced life and everything around them as a "verb". Like the Middle-East their language reflected how they perceive life. It's the same with the Far East as well.

Different languages and cultures can only be said to be different. The idea that some culture or other is superior somehow is wrong. I don't see the good in that.

I'm not saying that any culture is superior than any other. But something I've learned when working with a Middle-East language is how much of that inner deeper meaning stuff is missing in English. And I can see the same thing happening with Greek language which the Bible is translated from. Stuff that's important in a spiritual sense from the original Jewish speakers just couldn't get transmitted across because the both the Greek and English don't have the capacity to incorporate those concepts.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Middle East languages add the spiritual aspect to that depth of human experiences. Their languages reflect that.

Sorry. An important miss-understanding of American Indians perceptions of life and how it differed from English is in how they experienced life and everything around them as a "verb". Like the Middle-East their language reflected how they perceive life. It's the same with the Far East as well.


I'm not saying that any culture is superior than any other. But something I've learned when working with a Middle-East language is how much of that inner deeper meaning stuff is missing in English. And I can see the same thing happening with Greek language which the Bible is translated from. Stuff that's important in a spiritual sense from the original Jewish speakers just couldn't get transmitted across because the both the Greek and English don't have the capacity to incorporate those concepts.

Ok. This is more fleshed out and something that is closer to my own thinking.

Can you agree, though, that there are likely English/German/Japanese spiritual concepts that don't transmit to Hebrew ?

 

[dlamberth]

Ok. This is more fleshed out and something that is closer to my own thinking.

Can you agree, though, that there are likely English/German/Japanese spiritual concepts that don't transmit to Hebrew ?

I'm sure there is, but I'm struggling to come up with any. In the development of languages related to the spiritual "experience" of the Divine, the Middle-East is way more developed than the West. They have developed finer nuances of the Divine experience that have worked it's way into the language. Not so much so for Western thought. The West contribution to language is more materialistic in nature. Which has it's own place to human contribution.

 

[Aaron112]

Of course it would be to someone whose main function in life is to deny multiple sciences.

It is not nearly nor even a big fraction nor even a small fraction of His Time, so to speak, but God denies many sciences , those that deny Him in particular,
and He Reveals the Truth to all of them or anyone who keeps on seeking Truth, no matter where they start from , I think, as He Says.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I am talking about the scrolls from the time of Moses 3200 years ago. Moses wrote in Papyrus. It is a form of paper. Before this, they used clay tablets and some of what we receive from Moses is said to have come from clay tablets.

What scrolls? Care to show me one of those 3200 year-old scrolls.

 

[Diamond72]

What scrolls? Care to show me one of those 3200 year-old scrolls.

I already did. The oldest scrolls we have are the dead sea scrolls from about 2300 years ago. These are made out of paper, it is not like they last forever. The Egyptian Museum in Cairo has put on display a 4500-year-old papyri .

 

[Frank Robert]

It is not nearly nor even a big fraction nor even a small fraction of His Time, so to speak, but God denies many sciences , those that deny Him in particular,
and He Reveals the Truth to all of them or anyone who keeps on seeking Truth, no matter where they start from , I think, as He Says.

That God denies science is bad religious apologetics being pursued mostly by those for social and political reasons.

Outside the poor apologetics, accepting evolution and science does not mean you can’t believe in the Christian God.

 

[AV1611VET]

That God denies science is bad religious apologetics being pursued mostly by those for social and political reasons.

Outside the poor apologetics, accepting evolution and science does not mean you can’t believe in the Christian God.

Ditto for polytheism?

 

[Hans Blaster]

I already did. The oldest scrolls we have are the dead sea scrolls from about 2300 years ago. These are made out of paper, it is not like they last forever. The Egyptian Museum in Cairo has put on display a 4500-year-old papyri .

As best I can parse your previous posts (and it isn't easy sometimes) you were speaking of the 3200-year-old scrolls of Moses that the OT is (in part) based on. Where are those scrolls, or are you not talking about texts related to the OT at all?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Ditto for polytheism?

I suppose if you were a polytheist, the Christian god could be one of your gods.

 

[Astrid]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Seriously, maybe the problem is the borrowing of concepts not native to the West. Consider how well Navajo concepts would translate to Hebrew

Its like how christianity does not translate
into Chinese culture.

 

[Astrid]

A lot does not get translated. At least the KJV has the authority of God.

And you speak of me having no evidence.

 

[Astrid]

I already did. The oldest scrolls we have are the dead sea scrolls from about 2300 years ago. These are made out of paper, it is not like they last forever. The Egyptian Museum in Cairo has put on display a 4500-year-old papyri .

View attachment 326173

The dead sea scrolls are not made of paper.

 

[Diamond72]

The dead sea scrolls are not made of paper.

Moses was an Egyptian. At the time they used what they call Papyri. It can catch on fire and that is why the Library at Alexandra burned up in a fire. You can research it yourself if you want to know more about it.