When did humans first start to speak? How language evolved in Africa

Hans Blaster

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"A country cannot be both ignorant and free..."
Thomas Jefferson

Then you have chosen ignorance.

Your source is indeed a nutter. A nutter who can't diagram a sentence. The opening line of the Treaty is:

"It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of [] George the Third [] and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences, ..."

Where I have removed the flourishes describing George III (kings and their ridiculous titles, sheesh) and it is clear that it is a treaty between George II and the USA, and not that Georgie claims to be king of the USA.

Also, "Esquire" is not a title of nobility.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Also, "Esquire" is not a title of nobility.

Esquire at the time would have been anyone who own land over a certain amount. It was just another respectful way to address someone instead of using mister or sir.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Esquire at the time would have been anyone who own land over a certain amount. It was just another respectful way to address someone instead of using mister or sir.

I don't think Mr. Franklin (or as he liked to style himself "Dr. Franklin" after receiving an honorary degree) owned much in the way of land beyond his shop. But, he did own a few people. That might count.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I don't think Mr. Franklin (or as he liked to style himself "Dr. Franklin" after receiving an honorary degree) owned much in the way of land beyond his shop. But, he did own a few people. That might count.

He had 200 acres of land in New London in Chester County, Connecticut, so I'd say that counts.
 
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Ligurian

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Then you have chosen ignorance.

Your source is indeed a nutter. A nutter who can't diagram a sentence. The opening line of the Treaty is:

"It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of [] George the Third [] and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences, ..."

Where I have removed the flourishes describing George III (kings and their ridiculous titles, sheesh) and it is clear that it is a treaty between George II and the USA, and not that Georgie claims to be king of the USA.

Also, "Esquire" is not a title of nobility.

But my "source" didn't write the Treaty...
Your "nutter" would probably be David Hartley, Esq., since he was acting as the representative for George.

"It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences that have unhappily interrupted the good correspondence and friendship which they mutually wish to restore, and to establish such a beneficial and satisfactory intercourse, between the two countries upon the ground of reciprocal advantages and mutual convenience as may promote and secure to both perpetual peace and harmony..."

Esquire also means lawyer... which would explain that paragraph-long run-on sentence, and all of the titles.

So, was George (1) the king of (2) the arch-treasurer of (3) or the prince elector of the United States of America?
(3) Prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire gave him right to vote for the pope.
(2) How was George the arch-treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire?
In fact, why was George being called "Prince George", in the first place? when the only other place we see that title it's attached to "Elector of the Holy Roman Empire". My guess would be: in subservience to the Pope.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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When and where did human speech evolve?


Research carried out for this study indicates that the first speech sounds were uttered about 70,000 years ago, and not hundreds of thousands or millions of years ago, as is sometimes claimed in the literature.​
While my research has been primarily based on phonetic (speech sounds) and linguistic (language) analyses, it has also taken into account other disciplines, like palaeoanthropology (the study of human evolution), archaeology (analysing fossils and other remains), anatomy (the body) and genetics (the study of genes).​
The transformation of Homo sapiens (modern humans) from a “non-speaking” to a “speaking” species happened at about the same time as our hunter-gatherer ancestors migrated out of Africa.​

Why does this all matter?​

The utterance of the very first speech sounds about 70,000 years ago was the beginning of a journey that was to lead to the evolution of human language.
That would speech ~65,000 years before the Old Testament was written.
Consider the concept of mentalize where language originates inside your mind and is essentially wordless.
See the writings of Steven Pinker.
 
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Hans Blaster

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But my "source" didn't write the Treaty...
No. Your source is this idiot who can't diagram a sentence:

--from the online book: The United States is Still a British Colony

American Patriot Network

Your "nutter" would probably be David Hartley, Esq.,
Nope, the nutter in question is your online book reference.
since he was acting as the representative for George.

"It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences that have unhappily interrupted the good correspondence and friendship which they mutually wish to restore, and to establish such a beneficial and satisfactory intercourse, between the two countries upon the ground of reciprocal advantages and mutual convenience as may promote and secure to both perpetual peace and harmony..."
We'll leave this from the treaty for reference.
Esquire also means lawyer...
No it doesn't, though lawyers are those most likely to use it 240 years later.
which would explain that paragraph-long run-on sentence, and all of the title.
So, was George (1) the king of (2) the arch-treasurer of (3) or the prince elector of the United States of America?
None of the above.

(1) king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland
(2) arch-treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire
(3) prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire

Not affiliated with the USA.
(3) Prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire gave him right to vote for the pope.
No. As one of the elextors of the HRE, he voted for Holy Roman Emperor. The College of Cardinals voted for pope. (Since the electors included a couple Archbishop Electors over the centuries there were a few that could have voted for both (if they were also Cardinals). The Elector of Hanover was not one of them.
(2) How was George the arch-treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire?
Because "The office of Arch-Treasurer passed to the Elector of Hanover in 1777." and George was Elector of Hanover.
In fact, why was George being called "Prince George", in the first place?
Probably because "prince" is a generic term hereditary heads of state. George held several head of state titles as a Duke (Duchy of Brunswick and Lüneburg), King (England, Ireland, and laughably claimed: France), and Prince-Elector (Hanover).
when the only other place we see that title it's attached to "Elector of the Holy Roman Empire".
Because the Elector of Hanover was formally known as "Prince-Elector" (or Kurfürst) and George III was Kurfürst.
My guess would be: in subservience to the Pope.
Stop guessing. Try learning.
 
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Ligurian

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Then you have chosen ignorance.

Your source is indeed a nutter. A nutter who can't diagram a sentence. The opening line of the Treaty is:

"It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of [] George the Third [] and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences, ..."

Where I have removed the flourishes describing George III (kings and their ridiculous titles, sheesh) and it is clear that it is a treaty between George II and the USA, and not that Georgie claims to be king of the USA.

Also, "Esquire" is not a title of nobility.

You quoted the treaty which my source had quoted, then said my source couldn't diagram a sentence.

But my "source" didn't write the Treaty...
Your "nutter" would probably be David Hartley, Esq., since he was acting as the representative for George.

"It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences that have unhappily interrupted the good correspondence and friendship which they mutually wish to restore, and to establish such a beneficial and satisfactory intercourse, between the two countries upon the ground of reciprocal advantages and mutual convenience as may promote and secure to both perpetual peace and harmony..."

Esquire also means lawyer... which would explain that paragraph-long run-on sentence, and all of the titles.

So, was George (1) the king of (2) the arch-treasurer of (3) or the prince elector of the United States of America?
(3) Prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire gave him right to vote for the pope.
(2) How was George the arch-treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire?
In fact, why was George being called "Prince George", in the first place? when the only other place we see that title it's attached to "Elector of the Holy Roman Empire". My guess would be: in subservience to the Pope.

The ability to diagram a sentence... is what makes someone not-an-idiot?

No. Your source is this idiot who can't diagram a sentence:

--from the online book: The United States is Still a British Colony

American Patriot Network


Nope, the nutter in question is your online book reference.

We'll leave this from the treaty for reference.

No it doesn't, though lawyers are those most likely to use it 240 years later.


None of the above.

(1) king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland
(2) arch-treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire
(3) prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire

Not affiliated with the USA.

No. As one of the elextors of the HRE, he voted for Holy Roman Emperor. The College of Cardinals voted for pope. (Since the electors included a couple Archbishop Electors over the centuries there were a few that could have voted for both (if they were also Cardinals). The Elector of Hanover was not one of them.

Because "The office of Arch-Treasurer passed to the Elector of Hanover in 1777." and George was Elector of Hanover.

Probably because "prince" is a generic term hereditary heads of state. George held several head of state titles as a Duke (Duchy of Brunswick and Lüneburg), King (England, Ireland, and laughably claimed: France), and Prince-Elector (Hanover).

Because the Elector of Hanover was formally known as "Prince-Elector" (or Kurfürst) and George III was Kurfürst.

Stop guessing. Try learning.

"If the term “esquire” seems antiquated, that’s because the term originated in the Middle Ages from the Latin word "scutum," which means a shield. That term eventually evolved into the Middle French word "esquier" for a shield bearer."

In other words, the squire of a man-at-arms who was knighted by a head of state... the term "esquire" passed from physical to legal representation.


"George III, in full George William Frederick, German Georg Wilhelm Friedrich, (born June 4 [May 24, Old Style], 1738, London—died January 29, 1820, Windsor Castle, near London), king of Great Britain and Ireland (1760–1820) and elector (1760–1814) and then king (1814–20) of Hanover"--Brittanica

"elector, German Kurfürst, prince of the Holy Roman Empire who had a right to participate in the election of the emperor (the German king)."

So... the Holy Roman Empire was really just a Second Rome, being run by Germans for the Pope?

And this Roman Empire had 10 Imperial Circles:

How many Imperial Circles does "Moscow, the Third Rome" have?
 
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Hans Blaster

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You quoted the treaty which my source had quoted, then said my source couldn't diagram a sentence.



The ability to diagram a sentence... is what makes someone not-an-idiot?
It's a start. But it is the failure to understand the structure of the sentence that lead to that wack-a-doodle claim you copied about George being king of the USA. Sheesh.
"If the term “esquire” seems antiquated, that’s because the term originated in the Middle Ages from the Latin word "scutum," which means a shield. That term eventually evolved into the Middle French word "esquier" for a shield bearer."

In other words, the squire of a man-at-arms who was knighted by a head of state... the term "esquire" passed from physical to legal representation.


"George III, in full George William Frederick, German Georg Wilhelm Friedrich, (born June 4 [May 24, Old Style], 1738, London—died January 29, 1820, Windsor Castle, near London), king of Great Britain and Ireland (1760–1820) and elector (1760–1814) and then king (1814–20) of Hanover"--Brittanica

"elector, German Kurfürst, prince of the Holy Roman Empire who had a right to participate in the election of the emperor (the German king)."
Does any of this have anything do with the topic at hand or is just chaff?
So... the Holy Roman Empire was really just a Second Rome, being run by Germans for the Pope?

And this Roman Empire had 10 Imperial Circles:

How many Imperial Circles does "Moscow, the Third Rome" have?
Second Rome -- Third Rome is Russian imperial puffery. (The "second Rome" is Constantinople.)

As far as numbering things, in one ideology the HRE is "Erste Reich" with others that follow (none are Russian).
 
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Ligurian

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You quoted the treaty which my source had quoted, then said my source couldn't diagram a sentence.



The ability to diagram a sentence... is what makes someone not-an-idiot?



"If the term “esquire” seems antiquated, that’s because the term originated in the Middle Ages from the Latin word "scutum," which means a shield. That term eventually evolved into the Middle French word "esquier" for a shield bearer."

In other words, the squire of a man-at-arms who was knighted by a head of state... the term "esquire" passed from physical to legal representation.


"George III, in full George William Frederick, German Georg Wilhelm Friedrich, (born June 4 [May 24, Old Style], 1738, London—died January 29, 1820, Windsor Castle, near London), king of Great Britain and Ireland (1760–1820) and elector (1760–1814) and then king (1814–20) of Hanover"--Brittanica

"elector, German Kurfürst, prince of the Holy Roman Empire who had a right to participate in the election of the emperor (the German king)."

So... the Holy Roman Empire was really just a Second Rome, being run by Germans for the Pope?

And this Roman Empire had 10 Imperial Circles:

How many Imperial Circles does "Moscow, the Third Rome" have?

It's a start. But it is the failure to understand the structure of the sentence that lead to that wack-a-doodle claim you copied about George being king of the USA. Sheesh.

Does any of this have anything do with the topic at hand or is just chaff?

Second Rome -- Third Rome is Russian imperial puffery. (The "second Rome" is Constantinople.)

As far as numbering things, in one ideology the HRE is "Erste Reich" with others that follow (none are Russian).

If George was not still the King of the USA, then why, according to the treaty, did he think it was up to him to allow people to fish the waters? That's kinda like a father grounding a daughter who had married and moved away.

Nonsense. Constantinople happened before the collapse of the Western Holy Roman Empire.
(Holy Roman Empire, by James Bryce)
The First Roman Empire was secular, the Second Rome is the Imperial Roman Church (Imperial means Empire) aka Holy Roman Empire, and the Third Roman Empire would be the "revived Roman Empire". {was, is not, and yet is}

Oddly enough, the revival of the Holy Roman Empire is claimed to've been the mission of the Reich:

"Dr. Walsh said that he had heard Adolf Hitler say that the Holy Roman Empire, which was a Germanic empire, must be re-established."
PAN-EUROPE CALLED AIM OF NAZI DRIVE; Dr. Walsh of Georgetown Says He Heard Hitler Plan to Restore Holy Roman Empire, The New York Times (February 17th 1940)
 
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Hans Blaster

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If George was not still the King of the USA, then why, according to the treaty, did he think it was up to him to allow people to fish the waters? That's kinda like a father grounding a daughter who had married and moved away.
Because nations agreeing to what claims of the other they recognize (apparently in this case, fishing rights, in the Grand Banks, I presume) is what treaties are all about.
Nonsense. Constantinople happened before the collapse of the Western Holy Roman Empire.
(Holy Roman Empire, by James Bryce)
The First Roman Empire was secular, the Second Rome is the Imperial Roman Church (Imperial means Empire) aka Holy Roman Empire, and the Third Roman Empire would be the "revived Roman Empire". {was, is not, and yet is}

Oddly enough, the revival of the Holy Roman Empire is claimed to've been the mission of the Reich:

"Dr. Walsh said that he had heard Adolf Hitler say that the Holy Roman Empire, which was a Germanic empire, must be re-established."
PAN-EUROPE CALLED AIM OF NAZI DRIVE; Dr. Walsh of Georgetown Says He Heard Hitler Plan to Restore Holy Roman Empire, The New York Times (February 17th 1940)

You are scrambling 2 different concepts:

A: The numbering of German empires in Nazi dogma: 1st (800 HRE), 2nd (1871) unified German empire, 3rd (1933) Nazi German Empire.

B: The succession of leading cities in Christendom in 15th/16th century Russian theological and political dogma: 1st "Rome" is Rome center of Latin Christianity, 2nd "Rome" is Constantinople center of Greek/Orthodox Christianity (and surviving capital of Roman empire), and Moscow as the "3rd Rome" center of Slavic world.
 
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Ligurian

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If George was not still the King of the USA, then why, according to the treaty, did he think it was up to him to allow people to fish the waters? That's kinda like a father grounding a daughter who had married and moved away.

Nonsense. Constantinople happened before the collapse of the Western Holy Roman Empire.
(Holy Roman Empire, by James Bryce)
The First Roman Empire was secular, the Second Rome is the Imperial Roman Church (Imperial means Empire) aka Holy Roman Empire, and the Third Roman Empire would be the "revived Roman Empire". {was, is not, and yet is}

Oddly enough, the revival of the Holy Roman Empire is claimed to've been the mission of the Reich:

"Dr. Walsh said that he had heard Adolf Hitler say that the Holy Roman Empire, which was a Germanic empire, must be re-established."
PAN-EUROPE CALLED AIM OF NAZI DRIVE; Dr. Walsh of Georgetown Says He Heard Hitler Plan to Restore Holy Roman Empire, The New York Times (February 17th 1940)

Because nations agreeing to what claims of the other they recognize (apparently in this case, fishing rights, in the Grand Banks, I presume) is what treaties are all about.


You are scrambling 2 different concepts:

A: The numbering of German empires in Nazi dogma: 1st (800 HRE), 2nd (1871) unified German empire, 3rd (1933) Nazi German Empire.

B: The succession of leading cities in Christendom in 15th/16th century Russian theological and political dogma: 1st "Rome" is Rome center of Latin Christianity, 2nd "Rome" is Constantinople center of Greek/Orthodox Christianity (and surviving capital of Roman empire), and Moscow as the "3rd Rome" center of Slavic world.

The three Reichs of Germany doesn't mean the three Reigns of Rome (Monarchy, Republic, Empire).

"The movements of Germanic peoples which began before 200 bce"

Roman Empire (27 bce-476 ad)
Roman Empire | Definition, History, Time Period, Map, & Facts

Roman Republic, (509–27 bce)
Roman Republic | Definition, Dates, History, Government, Map, & Facts

Roman Monarchy, (753-509 bce)
"The Roman Kingdom (also referred to as the Roman monarchy, or the regal period of ancient Rome) was the earliest period of Roman history when the city and its territory were ruled by kings. According to oral accounts, the Roman Kingdom began with the city's founding c. 753 BC, with settlements around the Palatine Hill along the river Tiber in central Italy, and ended with the overthrow of the kings and the establishment of the Republic c. 509 BC."--wiki

"The dictatorship at Rome in the second Punic war was not more unlike the dictatorships of Sulla and Caesar, nor the States-general of Louis XIII to the assembly which his unhappy descendant convoked in 1789, than was the imperial office of Theodosius to that of Charles the Frank; and the seal, ascribed to a.d. 800, which bears the legend ‘Renovatio Romani Imperii,’4 expresses, more justly perhaps than was intended by its author, a second birth of the Roman Empire.
It is not, however, from the days of the later Carolingians that a proper view of this new creation can be formed. That period was one of transition, of fluctuation and uncertainty, in which the office, passing from one dynasty and country to another, had not time to acquire a settled character and claims, and was without the power that would have enabled it to support them. From the coronation of Otto the Great a new period begins, in which the ideas that have been described as floating in men’s minds took clearer shape, and attached to the imperial title a body of definite rights and definite duties. It is this latter phase, the Holy Empire, that we have now to consider. ...
4 Of this curious seal, a leaden one, preserved at Paris, a figure is given upon the cover of this volume. There are few monuments of that age whose genuineness can be considered altogether beyond doubt; but this seal has many respectable authorities in its favour. See, among others, Le Blanc, Dissertation Arstorique sur quelques monnoyes de Charlemagne, Paris, 1689 [etc.]"--James Bryce, The Holy Roman Empire, p.103

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Silver_denarius_of_Carausius_RIC_571_(FindID_854967).jpg

"It has already been remarked (see p. 26 and p. 62, supra) that neither the extinction of the line of Emperors who reigned in the West down to a.d, 476, nor the establishment of a second imperial line at Old Rome by the coronation of Charles the Great in a.d. 800, was an event of critical significance in the history of the East Roman realm. By the event of a.d. 476 the Eastern monarch became the sole legal representative of Roman claims, claims still admitted in theory, to the lordship of the whole Western world. But the only practical result of
[323]
this nominally enlarged authority was to induce, fifty years afterwards, Justinian’s reconquest of North Africa, Sicily, Sardinia, and Italy, territories which added nothing to the effective strength of the Empire, and which were successively lost, Africa in the seventh, Sicily and Sardinia in the ninth, Italy partly in the eighth and partly in the eleventh century. By the event of a.d. 800 the right to represent Rome, carrying with it the headship of the whole Christian commonwealth, was withdrawn from the Eastern line, so far as the Roman Church and the Franks could withdraw it, so that such titular sovereignty, by this time shadowy, as still remained to the Roman Emperor ever the world at large, became henceforth vested in those Western potentates, first Frankish, then Italian, ultimately German, who could obtain it from the hands of the Pope, or (in later days) by the election of the German princes. But this effort to transfer the claim to universal monarchy did not affect the legal rights of the Eastern sovereign in the countries which actually obeyed him, and affected but slightly the position he held towards the states that bordered on his own. Though he had lost Rome he continued to hold Southern Italy; nor did any of his nearer provinces in Thrace, or Greece, or Asia shew any signs of turning to his new Teutonic rivals. To the Westerns (other than the Southern Italians) he was already merely a name; so none of their peoples or cities, except Venice, thought of cleaving to him. To the Easterns he had been, and still remained, not only the national monarch of whom they were proud, but the legitimate heir of Old Rome; for the coronation of Charles in which the Pope, the citizens of Old Rome, and the Franks had joined, was in their eyes an outrageous usurpation."
The Holy Roman empire : Bryce, James Bryce
 
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Hans Blaster

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The three Reichs of Germany doesn't mean the three Reigns of Rome (Monarchy, Republic, Empire).

Good grief. quit being obtuse. Now you've introduced yet another unrelated list of three things ("the reigns of Rome") that have nothing to do with the three German empires (zero overlap) or the Russian dogma about "three Romes" which only overlaps with one of the entries (sort of).

Stop clouding this thread with irrelevant chaff.
 
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Ligurian

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You are scrambling 2 different concepts:

A: The numbering of German empires in Nazi dogma: 1st (800 HRE), 2nd (1871) unified German empire, 3rd (1933) Nazi German Empire.

B: The succession of leading cities in Christendom in 15th/16th century Russian theological and political dogma: 1st "Rome" is Rome center of Latin Christianity [...]

Now you've introduced yet another unrelated list of three things ("the reigns of Rome") that have nothing to do with the three German empires (zero overlap) [...]

The Barbarian Invasions, ca. 200bce... Germans were a large part of that invasion. Rome began with indigenous Ligurians and Pelasgians, the leadership of which was taken over by the Gaulish Umbrians. Germany wasn't there yet... Rome became a Republic which allowed non-Italians to rule. THEN came the RE, and the HRE... the HRE was German, but the Papacy did the crowning...

"Pope Innocent II (1198-1216), the most energetic champion of papal supremacy, thundered incessantly to all Europe that he claimed temporal supremacy over all the crowns of Christendom: for, as the successor of St. Peter, he was simultaneously the supreme head of the true religion and the temporal sovereign of the universe. His tireless exertions saw to it that papal rulership was extended over sundry lands and kingdoms. By the end of his reign, in fact, the Vatican had become the temporal ruler of Naples, of the islands of Sicily and Sardinia, of almost all the States of the Iberian peninsula such as Castile, Leon, Navarre, Aragon and Portugal, of all the Scandinavian lands, of the Kingdom of Hungary, of the Slav State of Bohemia, of Servia, Bosnia, Bulgaria, and Poland."--Avro Manhattan, Vatican Billions, p.40

That same guy made war on the Albigenses (Ussher calls them Albienses, a large Ligurian tribe living in that area)... that crusade of his was supposedly for their non-catholicity... except, I don't believe in coincidence.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The Barbarian Invasions, ca. 200bce... Germans were a large part of that invasion. Rome began with indigenous Ligurians and Pelasgians, the leadership of which was taken over by the Gaulish Umbrians. Germany wasn't there yet... Rome became a Republic which allowed non-Italians to rule. THEN came the RE, and the HRE... the HRE was German, but the Papacy did the crowning...

"Pope Innocent II (1198-1216), the most energetic champion of papal supremacy, thundered incessantly to all Europe that he claimed temporal supremacy over all the crowns of Christendom: for, as the successor of St. Peter, he was simultaneously the supreme head of the true religion and the temporal sovereign of the universe. His tireless exertions saw to it that papal rulership was extended over sundry lands and kingdoms. By the end of his reign, in fact, the Vatican had become the temporal ruler of Naples, of the islands of Sicily and Sardinia, of almost all the States of the Iberian peninsula such as Castile, Leon, Navarre, Aragon and Portugal, of all the Scandinavian lands, of the Kingdom of Hungary, of the Slav State of Bohemia, of Servia, Bosnia, Bulgaria, and Poland."--Avro Manhattan, Vatican Billions, p.40

That same guy made war on the Albigenses (Ussher calls them Albienses, a large Ligurian tribe living in that area)... that crusade of his was supposedly for their non-catholicity... except, I don't believe in coincidence.

What's the point of this? (The HRE still wasn't Roman.)
 
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