A troublesome verse for the Calvinist

[Clare73]

Thanks d Taylor.
I happen to know about that...
but unless I understand something PERSONALLY, and don't just parrot what I've heard,
I tend not to get into the discussion.

I, instead, tend to believe that that particular verse was just picked up incorrectly by some scribe since NOTHING ELSE in the NT agrees with it.

PS, it's that word APPOINTED that causes the problem...

So if it doesn't agree with your theology, some scribe just incorrectly picked it up. . .

Convenient.

 

[Clare73]

Acts 13 48 is a toughie. But we never go by only one verse,

Who made that rule?

So there goes the Trinity, with the Holy Spirit as God proceeding out from within (ek-poreuetai) the Father, in Jn 15:26.

and it is the only one.

Not really. . .see Jn 8:57. . .also see Ac 2:23, Ac 2:48 regarding what God also ordains.

Seems a little more work is needed before moving from 2 Pe 3:16 to 2 Ti 2:15.

 

[GodsGrace101]

So if it doesn't agree with your theology, some scribe just incorrectly picked it up. . .

Convenient.

It happens.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Who made that rule?



Not really. . .see Jn 8:57. . .also see Ac 2:23, Ac 2:48 regarding what God also ordains.

HOW not WHO.

 

[Clare73]

Not really. . .see Jn 8:57. . .also see Ac 2:23, Ac 2:48 regarding what God also ordains.

Seems a little more work is needed before moving from 2 Pe 3:16 to 2 Ti 2:15.

HOW not WHO.

Falls somewhat short of a response to the Scriptures presented. . .

Non-responsive to post #62.

 

[Mark Quayle]

PS
I was showing the two sides of the scale...
One member here says that God knows only what HE will do...
Then those such as yourself say what Piper says: Even the dust particles are predestinated...

I don't believe either side.

I assume by the "one member here [that] says that God knows only what HE will do..." you are referring to @Clare73 —and you would be wrong. She has been making the point that foreknowledge is not referring to what creatures will do, but to what God will do. She most definitely does not believe that God doesn't know what people will choose or what people will do.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I assume by the "one member here [that] says that God knows only what HE will do..." you are referring to @Clare73 —and you would be wrong. She has been making the point that foreknowledge is not referring to what creatures will do, but to what God will do. She most definitely does not believe that God doesn't know what people will choose or what people will do.

I've never heard of this before.
God foreknows EVERYHTING.

Don't your last two sentences conflict?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Falls somewhat short of a response to the Scriptures presented. . .

I'm not here to convince you of anything.
I stated that your verses state HOW and not WHO.
You could think on it a bit on your own.

 

[All Becomes New]

I think there is confusion here. Piper does not believe God only controls every particle of the universe and does not foreknow whatsoever comes to pass. He believes by God's decree and He has foreknowledge of all things - because, from Piper's PoV, God predestines everything and, as such, has complete foreknowledge.

 

[Clare73]

It happens.

Only when the scribe also added Jn 8:57.

So there goes the Trinity, with the Holy Spirit as God proceeding out from within (ek-poreuetai) the Father, in Jn 15:26, stated only once.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Only when the scribe also added Jn 8:57.

Clare, 75% of the time I don't really know what your point is.
So I find it difficult to reply to you.

Also, you don't accept facts....so that makes it even more difficult.
You're also very sarcastic and I respond very badly to sarcasm because I'm rather serious about theology.

 

[Clare73]

I'm not here to convince you of anything.
I stated that your verses state HOW and not WHO.
You could think on it a bit on your own.

Which does not alter that Jn 15:26 is stated only once in Scripture and, according to you, is not to be accepted.

 

[Mark Quayle]

How do I EARN something by believing?

By being in some way better than those who did not believe. WHY did you believe?

I HEAR THE GOSPEL....faith comes by hearing,
I am moved by God's grace and BELIEVE.

Are you moved by God's grace and decide to believe, and THAT is faith?

Please don't tell me that believing is a work....
Or that faith is a work.
Paul distinctly said that if it is by faith then it cannot be by works
and V V.

See, continuing my last comment— if you decide to believe by your own integrity and will power and free will, then it is not grace. I call that works. You, being better than someone else, chose to do what they did not.

The WHY cannot be known by you nor me.
We have to rely on God who cannot be separated from Himself.

We can know a lot about the why. It was God's decision to whom to show mercy, and not based on whether they would choose him.

He is either a God of love or He is not.
He is either a God of mercy or He is not.
He is either a just God or He is not.

I never implied otherwise.

God does not HAVE His attributes,,,
He IS His attributes...

and cannot be separated from them.
John said GOD IS LOVE.

This much I agree with wholeheartedly, though I think it is impossible to quite put into human language, but yes. In fact, it is a mainstay of my logic concerning his sovereignty.

Well, do we believe John who spent over 3 years with JESUS, the perfect revelation of God,
or do we not?

What in the world? Why do you say this? Or are you being like some of these others who think since Calvin was the devil that I must be related? —these whose antagonism instructs them that if I don't believe what they do that I don't believe Scripture? —these whose logic says that since I stopped responding to them, they have proven Calvinism is false?

You seem to think you are defeating some line of reasoning that I have with this...

 

[Clare73]

I assume by the "one member here [that] says that God knows only what HE will do..." you are referring to @Clare73 —and you would be wrong. She has been making the point that foreknowledge is not referring to what creatures will do, but to what God will do. She most definitely does not believe that God doesn't know what people will choose or what people will do.

Mark has it exactly correct.

I've never heard of this before.
God foreknows EVERYHTING.

Don't your last two sentences conflict?

She is saying that divine foreknowledge (prognosis), as used in the NT, always refers to God knowing what he will do.

 

[Clare73]

Clare, 75% of the time I don't really know what your point is.

You mean like your post #64?

So I find it difficult to reply to you.

Also, you don't accept facts....

You mean that I don't agree with the notion that Scripture does not present a doctrine unless it is stated exactly verbatim wherever it appears, as in Jn 8:57 and Ac 13:48?

You're also very sarcastic and I respond very badly to sarcasm because I'm rather serious about theology.

Nor do I respond well to loose handling and limited understanding of the Scriptures, as well as self-made and self-serving rules.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Which does not alter that it is stated only once in Scripture and, according to you, is not to be accepted.

It doesn't mean what you believe it means.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Which does not alter that it is stated only once in Scripture and, according to you, is not to be accepted.

I'd like to advise both you and @Mark Quayle that a doctrine CANNOT be based on only one scripture...
and sometimes even on more than one.

You could find out about this in exegesis or hermeneutics.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I think there is confusion here. Piper does not believe God only controls every particle of the universe and does not foreknow whatsoever comes to pass. He believes by God's decree and He has foreknowledge of all things - because, from Piper's PoV, God predestines everything and, as such, has complete foreknowledge.

Calvinists don't call it foreknowledge - which every Christian believes.

They believe in predestination of EVERYTHING (as you've stated above).

 

[Clare73]

It doesn't mean what you believe it means.

Then it falls to you to Biblically demonstrate that assertion if it is to have any merit beyond personal opinion..

 

[All Becomes New]

Calvinists don't call it foreknowledge - which every Christian believes.

They believe in predestination of EVERYTHING (as you've stated above).

That's not exactly accurate. They believe God knows all things past, present, and future. That's foreknowledge. Secondly, to say Calvinists are not Christians is not wise because it is a secondary issue.