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How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

BBAS 64

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Because BBAS it seems to me that the reformed change the meaning of words.
ALL would be one of them.

Jesus said He would draw ALL MEN to Himself.
By reformed theology this just cannot mean ALL, so it's changed to mean all kinds of people.
No. It means ALL when Jesus says it.

As to commentaries, I don't find them to useful because you post the one you like,
and I post the one I like and never the twain shall meet.

So if we need a commentary personally, that's fine.
But maybe they shouldn't be used for our purposes in trying to understand scripture?
It just seems to me that scripture is clear and easier to use.
Good Day,


Thayer Defines "pas"

pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types



So how does one baptize counties... are you saying that every single person in those 2 counties are baptized in the Jordan?

How many from those counties were baptized last week?

Yes he did:

Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

All men there were drawn to the Middle cross for sure it was quite the scene.


And the Father draws to overcome the universal inability of man to came to Christ:

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Unless no Drawing by the Father no ability to come ( man is stuck) in his inability.

Do not confused the context ( the way he died, and the overcoming the inability of man) and reason for the statements they are not the same.

In Him,

Bill
 
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GodsGrace101

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Good Day, GG101 and Mark

Sorry to but in...

God's authority to command is not based on anything other than His authority to command.

Repent is a command... and God grants what he commands.

If (perhaps) it is not granted no repentance can happen.

Salvation is of the Lord.

2Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

When Jesus (God) commands Lazarus to raise form the dead, are you suggesting that command was only valid because he Lazarus had the ability to do so?

Thus you therefore conclude the command from God was not needed for him to do so?

In Him,

Bill
Are you really comparing Jesus' command to Lazarus with His command to us to obey Him?
If Jesus commands Lazarus to rise from the dead,,,He is God and L will rise from the dead.

If Jesus commands us to obey Him, it will be our CHOICE to obey with the help of the Holy Spirit.
The problem is that I don't think you believe we have free will to make a choice.

As to 2 Timothy 2:23
Nothing happens without God willing it.
This does not mean it was predestinated from the beginning of time.
As God reveals Himself, he gives to persons the opportunity to soften their heart and change their ways.

However, THEY must change their ways.
See 2 Tim 2:1 Paul tells Timothy to be strong through the grace of God...
2 Tim 2:4 he tell Timothy not to get tied up in civilian affairs...
2:5 athletes must follow the rules...
2:6 hard-working farmers enjoy the fruits of their labor...

As is stated in Ephesians 2, God has chosen, from the beginning of time, the work that He gives to those He has chosen to do that work.
verse 21 states that Timothy will be ready for the Master to use him for every good work.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Good Day,

So how does one baptize counties... are you saying that every single person in those 2 counties are baptized in the Jordan?

How many from those counties were baptized last week?

Yes he did:

Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

All men there were drawn to the Middle cross for sure it was quite the scene.


And the Father draws to overcome the universal inability of man to came to Christ:

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Unless no Drawing by the Father no ability to come ( man is stuck) in his inability.

Do not confused the context ( the way he died, and the overcoming the inability of man) and reason for the statements they are not the same.

In Him,

Bill
Yes. Jesus said this to show what kind of death He would experience.

But does that deny the fact that He DID say that He would draw all men to Himself?
And I've never heard the idea of being drawn to the middle cross - I won't reply to this, it sounds rather silly.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him.

And WHO does the Father draw?

John 6:45 As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

This is referring to the New Covenant of course...
from
Jeremiah 31:31
31“The day is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
32This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,” says the LORD.
33“But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel after those days,” says the LORD. “I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the LORD.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already,” says the LORD. “And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”


The Father draws everyone...and those who worship Him are given to Jesus for salvation.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Good Day,


Thayer Defines "pas"

pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types



So how does one baptize counties... are you saying that every single person in those 2 counties are baptized in the Jordan?

How many from those counties were baptized last week?

Yes he did:

Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

All men there were drawn to the Middle cross for sure it was quite the scene.


And the Father draws to overcome the universal inability of man to came to Christ:

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Unless no Drawing by the Father no ability to come ( man is stuck) in his inability.

Do not confused the context ( the way he died, and the overcoming the inability of man) and reason for the statements they are not the same.

In Him,

Bill
Where does it state in the NT (or OT) that man is UNABLE to come to Christ?
I agree that we are born depraved (to use Calvin's word)
but where does it state that this depravity causes us to be unable to seek God?
 
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John Owen

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John Owen

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Where does it state in the NT (or OT) that man is UNABLE to come to Christ? JOHN 6:44
I agree that we are born depraved (to use Calvin's word)
but where does it state that this depravity causes us to be unable to seek God?
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. John 6:44
 
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Mark Quayle

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I ask for this reason:
Jesus sent the Apostles to preach and teach what He had taught them for over 3 years.
If the reformed faith is true, what would be the purpose of all Jesus' teaching and preaching?
What is the point if God is going to unconditionally choose who will be saved and who will be damned?

Also, He sent out the Apostles because they knew what He taught.
Then the Apostles taught others, and they taught others and so forth.
The CC calls this Apostolic Succession - which is historical.

If a question comes up (for instance eternal security or OSAS) wouldn't it be a good idea to go to the
Apostolic or Early Church Fathers for an answer?

I began looking into this some years ago and I've found it very helpful.
For instance, in the early church the idea of predestination did not exist except for some gnostic groups.
In practical terms, because nothing is automatic; the promises and ends God brings to pass are almost always done by means, indirectly.

Are the Apostolic Successors of the same authority as the first apostles?
 
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Mark Quayle

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I hear this all the time.
It's soooo tiring Mark.
Jesus saves us.
We cannot save ourselves.
We can only decide, at some point, that we WISH to be saved.
And then we follow God's salvation plan.
Which He graciously planned before time began.
Lol, just in case: That it is "soooo tiring" doesn't convince anyone who doesn't feel responsible for your happiness.

Meanwhile, how can anyone at enmity with God, spiritually dead, unable to please God, unable to submit to God's command, even want to be born-again?
 
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Mark Quayle

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The parable of the workers in the vineyard teaches us that we are to mind our own business and not be concerned with everyone else.
Persons are always screaming NOT FAIR,,,God wants us to not always be looking at others --- the grass is always greener and the such.

God will have mercy on whom He has mercy,
but God is a good God and wishes all to come to know Him,
so He has allowed us to KNOW HOW to receive His mercy.

He can choose on whom to have mercy,
but He let's us know HOW He makes this decision...
Unconditional Election does not allow us to know HOW God picked.
Is this a just God in your opinion?

You might reply that God can do as He pleases...
BUT does this make Him a JUST God as is explained throughout the bible?
How does it make him UNJUST?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes. Jesus said this to show what kind of death He would experience.

But does that deny the fact that He DID say that He would draw all men to Himself?
And I've never heard the idea of being drawn to the middle cross - I won't reply to this, it sounds rather silly.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him.

And WHO does the Father draw?

John 6:45 As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

This is referring to the New Covenant of course...
from
Jeremiah 31:31
31“The day is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
32This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,” says the LORD.
33“But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel after those days,” says the LORD. “I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the LORD.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already,” says the LORD. “And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”


The Father draws everyone...and those who worship Him are given to Jesus for salvation.

I find it interesting that Calvinists will use John 6:44 as evidence that no one can come to Christ unless The Father draws them but then when you get to John 15:6 they conveniently forget all about John 6:44 and claim that those who fail to remain in Christ are tares.
 
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Mark Quayle

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PS
Could you post some early theologians that believed in predestination that were not gnostic?
Not going to look that up. Haven't studied them, as my theology doesn't depend on other believers. Not interested.

I understand to some degree the logic that leads to the idea that it matters what they thought, but I disagree with it. 1. A few is not a representation 2. Even one 'representative' can stray a long way from the truth they once heard. 3. My theology doesn't depend on other believers
 
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BNR32FAN

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How does it make him UNJUST?
By showing partiality to some. Part of the definition of “just” is impartial. That’s why the scriptures state twice in the New Testament that God does not show partiality.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The judgement and punishment imply the ability to obey since God’s punishment is just that in itself implies that we must be capable of compliance. If we are incapable of complying with God’s commandments then His judgement and punishment upon us cannot be just for it is unjust to judge and punish someone for failing to comply with a law that they are incapable of complying with.
Circular. You're doing nothing here but restating your premise. You've done nothing to answer my questions. You didn't even say that you disagree, or that "God commands all men everywhere to believe" comes at a time when everyone is able to comply, nor how they are able to comply.
God will grant the ability to repent to all who humble themselves to Him. The scriptures even indicate that He has granted the ability to repent to those who have not humbled themselves to Him. Romans 2:4-5.
All you have done here is to kick the logical can further down the road. How are any at enmity with God and unable to please him, able to truly humble themselves? What is the ability to truly repent if not the gift of the Holy Spirit? HOW can any decision we make produce valid spiritual results apart from the Spirit in us? Are we of ourselves spiritual players like God?
 
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GodsGrace101

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No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. John 6:44
I've replied to this.
The Father draws everyone.

My explanation includes Jeremiah 31:31
and Romans 1:19 is also an answer to the above.
 
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GodsGrace101

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In practical terms, because nothing is automatic; the promises and ends God brings to pass are almost always done by means, indirectly.

Are the Apostolic Successors of the same authority as the first apostles?
I would say yes.
How else can we know the truth?
Our authority is the bible.
But WHO wrote the bible?
Who compiled the gospels and letters that were to comprise it?

If you don't trust the Church Fathers, you can't trust the bible.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Lol, just in case: That it is "soooo tiring" doesn't convince anyone who doesn't feel responsible for your happiness.

Meanwhile, how can anyone at enmity with God, spiritually dead, unable to please God, unable to submit to God's command, even want to be born-again?
I don't want anyone to be responsible for my happiness. (but you could try!)

The reason that it's boring is because it's such a dead horse argument.
Like the works argument: No Christian believes we are saved by works. PERIOD. We need to rehash this constantly?

And because some of us are not calvinist, this does not mean that we think by our determination we can save ourselveses
UNLESS God made our deciding be the plan.

John 3:16 Does this sound prescriptive to you? It certainly is.
 
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BNR32FAN

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PS
Could you post some early theologians that believed in predestination that were not gnostic?

I can post Iranaeus destroying Calvin’s theology 1,300 years before Calvin was born.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedienceand the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.



2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.



3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.



4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
 
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BBAS 64

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Are you really comparing Jesus' command to Lazarus with His command to us to obey Him?
If Jesus commands Lazarus to rise from the dead,,,He is God and L will rise from the dead.

If Jesus commands us to obey Him, it will be our CHOICE to obey with the help of the Holy Spirit.
The problem is that I don't think you believe we have free will to make a choice.

As to 2 Timothy 2:23
Nothing happens without God willing it.
This does not mean it was predestinated from the beginning of time.
As God reveals Himself, he gives to persons the opportunity to soften their heart and change their ways.

However, THEY must change their ways.
See 2 Tim 2:1 Paul tells Timothy to be strong through the grace of God...
2 Tim 2:4 he tell Timothy not to get tied up in civilian affairs...
2:5 athletes must follow the rules...
2:6 hard-working farmers enjoy the fruits of their labor...

As is stated in Ephesians 2, God has chosen, from the beginning of time, the work that He gives to those He has chosen to do that work.
verse 21 states that Timothy will be ready for the Master to use him for every good work.
Good Day, GG101

Yes I am they are both commands.. The validity of the command is not based on anything other than His authority to command it.

I do believe we make choices and do so freely.

Man can not change his own heart.. he loves darkness and hates light.

Eze 36:25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.

Salvation is of the Lord...

He cleans us.. He gives us a new heart, He takes away our old "stony", He gives a new heart of flesh, He puts his Spirit in us for the explicit purpose of our walking in his statues he is the primary effective cause of our walking and keeping His ordinances, and doing them.

He does we are are effected by his doing for the purposes he designs.

God commands us to obey and He is the cause of our doing so. He changes our hearts for his own purpose.

Salvation is of the Lord from start to finish he is the only primary and effective cause.

In Him,

Bill
 
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