What really are Stars?

[Lulav]

Stars- the term is used both literally as the heavenly bodies (including the sun) which give light. The Moon of course reflects the light of the sun, so is a minor light but not a star.

It never says anywhere in the Bible that the moon is a reflector. It has it's own light, just a different kind.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, - Matthew

​

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.

The word used for light there is also found here in the Psalms 74

16 The day is Yours, the night also is Yours;
You have prepared the light and the sun.
17 You have set all the borders of the earth;
You have made summer and winter.​

 

[dani'el]

Yes, it does have a different light: a reflected light. And light reflected can still be light given. Ancients may or may not have known it was a reflection of the sun's light, but they did know it was different. As you quoted, they saw it as a "lesser light."

We know today it gives no light of its own. But I'd agree with your point of view here in this: we should try to get into the mindset of the writers. So thinking of them as simply greater and lesser lights is important. But so is understanding that when we ask what do stars represent we need to keep in mind prophets worked at the unction of the Ruach. And Adonai definitely knew the difference in a star and a moon.

Genesis 37:9Then he dreamed another dream and told it to his brothers and said, “Behold, I have dreamed another dream. Behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

Let's look at this dream. The sun (a star which they would have seen as the brightest, a special light), the moon (not a star), and eleven stars:
sun- father
moon- mother
eleven stars- brothers

Had the dream not contained a reference to their mother it could have been confusing. However she died before they came to Mitzrayim (Egypt) and bowed before Yoseph. So her reference was not a star, but a "lesser light." Since this dream was most assuredly prophetic Elohim had to make a distinction, which He did.

 

[Lulav]

Yes, it does have a different light: a reflected light. And light reflected can still be light given.

Did you know that moonlight is colder than the shadows that surround it?

Ancients may or may not have known it was a reflection of the sun's light, but they did know it was different. As you quoted, they saw it as a "lesser light."

What 'ancients'? Are you referring to Moses? Do you not believe that the CREATOR the LORD himself dictated the Torah to him? Or did Moses make up what he thought happened in the beginning?

We know today it gives no light of its own. But I'd agree with your point of view here in this: we should try to get into the mindset of the writers. So thinking of them as simply greater and lesser lights is important. But so is understanding that when we ask what do stars represent we need to keep in mind prophets worked at the unction of the Ruach.

And how do we know this? (reflected light)
The mindset of the writers? We are talking about the Torah, right, given to Moses on the mountain where he went to meet with the L)RD who gave him the Torah?

And Adonai definitely knew the difference in a star and a moon.

I should hope so since he Created them.

Genesis 37:9Then he dreamed another dream and told it to his brothers and said, “Behold, I have dreamed another dream. Behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

Let's look at this dream. The sun (a star which they would have seen as the brightest, a special light), the moon (not a star), and eleven stars:
sun- father
moon- mother
eleven stars- brothers

Had the dream not contained a reference to their mother it could have been confusing. However she died before they came to Mitzrayim (Egypt) and bowed before Yoseph. So her reference was not a star, but a "lesser light." Since this dream was most assuredly prophetic Elohim had to make a distinction, which He did.

1. The sun is not a star
2. Yes Rachel died before they went to Egypt however if you say the Sun is a star and then the 11 brothers are stars, then all 12 of them are stars, doesn't make sense.
3. How do you see the Moon representing Rachel? As a reflection of a star (her husband Jacob)?

 

[dani'el]

Did you know that moonlight is colder than the shadows that surround it?

Which would support my position, not yours. Its light IS DIFFERENT than that of the sun and other stars.

What 'ancients'? Are you referring to Moses? Do you not believe that the CREATOR the LORD himself dictated the Torah to him? Or did Moses make up what he thought happened in the beginning?
an·cient 1
(ān′shənt)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or belonging to times long past
People of times long past, including Moses

And how do we know this? (reflected light) We went there, and no one was burnt up (or frozen by some kind of cold fire). The surface was sampled, and it turns out we were right- it reflects the light of the sun.

The mindset of the writers? We are talking about the Torah, right, given to Moses on the mountain where he went to meet with the L)RD who gave him the Torah? God did not dictate the Torah to Moses. I believe he was given a commission to oversee the writing of Torah. But it includes more ancient writings, additions by priests, and others according to the scholars in my JPS Study TNK.

I should hope so since he Created them. A bit snippy, but I'm glad your hope is in God.



1. The sun is not a star That is just plain foolishness:
star
(stär)
n.
1.
a. A celestial body that generates light and other radiant energy and consists ofa mass of gas held together by its own gravity in which the energy generatedby nuclear reactions in the interior is balanced by the outflow of energy to thesurface, and the inward-directed gravitational forces are balanced by theoutward-directed gas and radiation pressures.
b. Any of the celestial bodies visible at night from Earth as relatively stationary,usually twinkling points of light.

2. Yes Rachel died before they went to Egypt however if you say the Sun is a star and then the 11 brothers are stars, then all 12 of them are stars, doesn't make sense. Well, a comment like that needs some kind of explanation. Unless you are a renowned scholar you cannot argue from authority. And even if you are, foolish comments would get immediate denial.

I think the point is clear: their mother was included so they would not fixate on her premature death in a prophetic dream. But she could not be a star because she never bowed before Joseph. The others did. So they are represented by stars; including the sun. She is represented by what you yourself describe as a cold light- cold as the grave???

3. How do you see the Moon representing Rachel? As a reflection of a star (her husband Jacob)? See above. But nice try framing my argument in what you probably think is sexist or misogynistic terms. I see the moon representing her as dead. Period.

 

[Paul4JC]

kokab: a star
Original Word: כּוֹכָב
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: kokab
Phonetic Spelling: (ko-kawb')
Definition: a star

If you want to take the Bible literally: A star is not a planet. Planets are not in the Bible. What we call planets are actually stars [Jude v13]. The sun is not a star nor is it the moon. The moon is not the sun nor is it a star. The stars are not the sun nor are they the moon. The sun, moon, and stars are luminaries [Gen 1:16]. They are all inside the firmament [Gen 1:15 NIV] . There is only one sun and there is only one moon. The sun and the moon are the same size. [1 Enoch 72:37] yet also have different splendor [1Co 15:41]. There is no solar system, There are no galaxies. There is no universe. The earth is not a ball. There are the heavens above, the earth, and the world under the earth [Phl 2:10].



[Jde 1:13 NIV] They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

planétés: a wanderer
Original Word: πλανήτης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: planétés
Phonetic Spelling: (plan-ay'-tace)
Definition: a wanderer
Usage: a wanderer.

[1Co 15:41 NIV] The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor

[Gen 1:15 NIV] ...and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.

[1 Enoch 72:37] In this way it (the sun) emerges and so it enters; it neither decreases nor rests but runs day and night. Its light is seven times brighter than that of the moon, but the size of the two is equal.

[Gen 1:16 NIV] God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

[Psa 148:3 NIV] Praise him, sun and moon; praise him, all you shining stars.

[Phl 2:10 NIV] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Compare Isaiah 40:20 with Isaiah 22:18

chug: vault, horizon
Original Word: חוּג
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: chug
Phonetic Spelling: (khoog)
Definition: vault, horizon

dur: a circle, ball
Original Word: דּוּר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: dur
Phonetic Spelling: (dure)
Definition: a circle, ball

[Heb 1:2 NIV] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe (ages).

[Heb 11:3 NIV] By faith we understand that the universe was (ages were) formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age

 

[daq]

kokab: a star
Original Word: כּוֹכָב
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: kokab
Phonetic Spelling: (ko-kawb')
Definition: a star

If you want to take the Bible literally: A star is not a planet. Planets are not in the Bible. What we call planets are actually stars [Jude v13]. The sun is not a star nor is it the moon. The moon is not the sun nor is it a star. The stars are not the sun nor are they the moon. The sun, moon, and stars are luminaries [Gen 1:16]. They are all inside the firmament [Gen 1:15 NIV] . There is only one sun and there is only one moon. The sun and the moon are the same size. [1 Enoch 72:37] yet also have different splendor [1Co 15:41]. There is no solar system, There are no galaxies. There is no universe. The earth is not a ball. There are the heavens above, the earth, and the world under the earth [Phl 2:10].



[Jde 1:13 NIV] They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

planétés: a wanderer
Original Word: πλανήτης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: planétés
Phonetic Spelling: (plan-ay'-tace)
Definition: a wanderer
Usage: a wanderer.

[1Co 15:41 NIV] The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor

[Gen 1:15 NIV] ...and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.

[1 Enoch 72:37] In this way it (the sun) emerges and so it enters; it neither decreases nor rests but runs day and night. Its light is seven times brighter than that of the moon, but the size of the two is equal.

[Gen 1:16 NIV] God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

[Psa 148:3 NIV] Praise him, sun and moon; praise him, all you shining stars.

[Phl 2:10 NIV] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Compare Isaiah 40:20 with Isaiah 22:18

chug: vault, horizon
Original Word: חוּג
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: chug
Phonetic Spelling: (khoog)
Definition: vault, horizon

dur: a circle, ball
Original Word: דּוּר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: dur
Phonetic Spelling: (dure)
Definition: a circle, ball

[Heb 1:2 NIV] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe (ages).

[Heb 11:3 NIV] By faith we understand that the universe was (ages were) formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age

As already shown in the recent anti-science thread, Elohim confirms the heliocentric model through the Prophet Yeshayah, in the days of Hezekyah king of Yhudah, by way of the sundial of Ahaz event wherein the shadow of the sundial is made to go backward ten steps or degrees, (2 Kings 20:8-11, Isaiah 38:5-8). Sundials are designed and explained according to the heliocentric model and do not work properly with any flat-earth cosmology model.

 

[Lulav]

Which would support my position, not yours. Its light IS DIFFERENT than that of the sun and other stars.

Yes, it's different but that does not mean it's a reflection of the sun. To reflect a warm light would also include it's heat yet the moons shadow is warmer than the area that is in the moons light.

We went there, and no one was burnt up (or frozen by some kind of cold fire). The surface was sampled, and it turns out we were right- it reflects the light of the sun.

'We' I don't include myself in it even though I was alive and watched it on TV, an old B&W. We were told that man went there but just because they brought back some dirt and rocks (and I've seen these and touched them) doesn't mean they came from the Moon. What we are 'told' and what actually happened is always surrounded by an agenda.

God did not dictate the Torah to Moses. I believe he was given a commission to oversee the writing of Torah. But it includes more ancient writings, additions by priests, and others according to the scholars in my JPS Study TNK.

"These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
"And Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD."

1. The sun is not a star That is just plain foolishness:

Have 'we' been to any star to be able to compare it with?

2. Yes Rachel died before they went to Egypt however if you say the Sun is a star and then the 11 brothers are stars, then all 12 of them are stars, doesn't make sense. Well, a comment like that needs some kind of explanation. Unless you are a renowned scholar you cannot argue from authority. And even if you are, foolish comments would get immediate denial.

OK< the scripture says that the sun (which you say is a star) was representative of Jacob, and then there were 11 stars which represented the Eleven brothers of Joseph. So 1+11 = 12. Twelve stars.

I think the point is clear: their mother was included so they would not fixate on her premature death in a prophetic dream. But she could not be a star because she never bowed before Joseph. The others did. So they are represented by stars; including the sun. She is represented by what you yourself describe as a cold light- cold as the grave???

Yes, I can see that - also it is called by the LORD, the 'lesser light'. She was gone but not forgotten.

3. How do you see the Moon representing Rachel? As a reflection of a star (her husband Jacob)? See above. But nice try framing my argument in what you probably think is sexist or misogynistic terms. I see the moon representing her as dead. Period.

I have no idea where you got that accusation from but it never crossed my mind, I don't think like that.

 

[Lulav]

As already shown in the recent anti-science thread, Elohim confirms the heliocentric model through the Prophet Yeshayah, in the days of Hezekyah king of Yhudah, by way of the sundial of Ahaz event wherein the shadow of the sundial is made to go backward ten steps or degrees, (2 Kings 20:8-11, Isaiah 38:5-8). Sundials are designed and explained according to the heliocentric model and do not work properly with any flat-earth cosmology model.

But in order to be able to use that to justify heliocentrism don't we need to know what Ahaz's sundial looked like?

It's interesting in the Hebrew the words used, nothing like the translations.
I've highlighted all the times the same word Ma'alot is used. Five times same word translated. All other times translated elsewhere it is 'steps' yet here it translates it. You can see here how many different ways this is translated. Even the sun is made into sunlight or shadow.

Another thing we need to take into consideration was that Ahaz was an evil King. Where did his sundial come from?



הנני משיב את צל המעלות אשר ירדה במעלות אחז בשמש אחרנית עשר מעלות ותשב השמש עשר מעלות במעלות
אשר ירדה

 

[Yahudim]

I hope you don't mind if I interject a few comments. Having read through all the posts in this thread and what jumps out at me is what is not said. Scripture teaches us that all created things have a duality of being.

There is a spiritual side to every physical thing. Rocks and Trees 'cry out'. The earth bears witness to spilt blood. The land of Promise 'vomits out' a people for violating it's covenant guaranteed sabbatical rest. The Waters above ('the Heavens') and the Waters below are separated but are nonetheless 'Waters'.

While some have formed their opinions from a perspective of physical primacy (what they can see, hear, smell, touch, taste, measure or calculate), I would simply point out that I see a duality. It seems to me that every physical thing has also a spiritual side. And since the physical is born of the Spirit (for Adonai Elohim is Spirit) I believe we have it backwards. This is a creation where the Spiritual holds primacy.

Our perspective is formed by our capabilities to perceive. Since we are limited in our ability to perceive the spiritual world, so too are we likewise hindered in understanding it.

Some will argue that stars are this or that from a physical perspective. They will anchor their beliefs with words that are perhaps meant to be metaphorical or allegorical. I'm trying to express that many times, words and phrases in scripture are selected to express a similitude because understanding a spiritual equivalent to a physical reality is impossible for us in most instances.

In general, trying to understand the nature of stars in both a physical and a spiritual sense is difficult at best. For instance, what if half the descriptions in scripture of stars were actual descriptions of physical phenomena and the other half were descriptions of the office and duties of individual spiritual beings that could manifest the necessary physical attributes to fulfill those duties?

This premise is not out of the realm of possibilities, as we know that Angels can manifest themselves in varying physical forms and that Rocks, Trees and the Earth have sentience and can bear witness and cry out to Adonai. Makes the quibbling about absolutes seem a little silly, doesn't it?

Nonetheless, @Lulav this is a fascinating topic.

 

[Lulav]

I hope you don't mind if I interject a few comments. Having read through all the posts in this thread and what jumps out at me is what is not said. Scripture teaches us that all created things have a duality of being.

There is a spiritual side to every physical thing. Rocks and Trees 'cry out'. The earth bears witness to spilt blood. The land of Promise 'vomits out' a people for violating it's covenant guaranteed sabbatical rest. The Waters above ('the Heavens') and the Waters below are separated but are nonetheless 'Waters'.

While some have formed their opinions from a perspective of physical primacy (what they can see, hear, smell, touch, taste, measure or calculate), I would simply point out that I see a duality. It seems to me that every physical thing has also a spiritual side. And since the physical is born of the Spirit (for Adonai Elohim is Spirit) I believe we have it backwards. This is a creation where the Spiritual holds primacy.

Our perspective is formed by our capabilities to perceive. Since we are limited in our ability to perceive the spiritual world, so too are we likewise hindered in understanding it.

Some will argue that stars are this or that from a physical perspective. They will anchor their beliefs with words that are perhaps meant to be metaphorical or allegorical. I'm trying to express that many times, words and phrases in scripture are selected to express a similitude because understanding a spiritual equivalent to a physical reality is impossible for us in most instances.

In general, trying to understand the nature of stars in both a physical and a spiritual sense is difficult at best. For instance, what if half the descriptions in scripture of stars were actual descriptions of physical phenomena and the other half were descriptions of the office and duties of individual spiritual beings that could manifest the necessary physical attributes to fulfill those duties?

This premise is not out of the realm of possibilities, as we know that Angels can manifest themselves in varying physical forms and that Rocks, Trees and the Earth have sentience and can bear witness and cry out to Adonai. Makes the quibbling about absolutes seem a little silly, doesn't it?

Nonetheless, @Lulav this is a fascinating topic.

Thanks, I'm just listening to How Great thou Art while reading this!

 

[Yahudim]

Thanks, I'm just listening to How Great thou Art while reading this!

Btw, I edited my post that you quoted. Just so you know...

 

[Lulav]

I hope you don't mind if I interject a few comments. Having read through all the posts in this thread and what jumps out at me is what is not said. Scripture teaches us that all created things have a duality of being.

There is a spiritual side to every physical thing. Rocks and Trees 'cry out'. The earth bears witness to spilt blood. The land of Promise 'vomits out' a people for violating it's covenant guaranteed sabbatical rest. The Waters above ('the Heavens') and the Waters below are separated but are nonetheless 'Waters'.

While some have formed their opinions from a perspective of physical primacy (what they can see, hear, smell, touch, taste, measure or calculate), I would simply point out that I see a duality. It seems to me that every physical thing has also a spiritual side. And since the physical is born of the Spirit (for Adonai Elohim is Spirit) I believe we have it backwards. This is a creation where the Spiritual holds primacy.

Our perspective is formed by our capabilities to perceive. Since we are limited in our ability to perceive the spiritual world, so too are we likewise hindered in understanding it.

Some will argue that stars are this or that from a physical perspective. They will anchor their beliefs with words that are perhaps meant to be metaphorical or allegorical. I'm trying to express that many times, words and phrases in scripture are selected to express a similitude because understanding a spiritual equivalent to a physical reality is impossible for us in most instances.

In general, trying to understand the nature of stars in both a physical and a spiritual sense is difficult at best. For instance, what if half the descriptions in scripture of stars were actual descriptions of physical phenomena and the other half were descriptions of the office and duties of individual spiritual beings that could manifest the necessary physical attributes to fulfill those duties?

This premise is not out of the realm of possibilities, as we know that Angels can manifest themselves in varying physical forms and that Rocks, Trees and the Earth have sentience and can bear witness and cry out to Adonai. Makes the quibbling about absolutes seem a little silly, doesn't it?

Nonetheless, @Lulav this is a fascinating topic.

I totally agree, There is a realm that we don't see and I don't think it would be good to as it would boggle the mind and faith wouldn't be necessary. The thing is we are told about this but many miss it.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

When the LORD made a covenant with the Israelites, he commanded them: “Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them.

 

[daq]

But in order to be able to use that to justify heliocentrism don't we need to know what Ahaz's sundial looked like?

It's interesting in the Hebrew the words used, nothing like the translations.
I've highlighted all the times the same word Ma'alot is used. Five times same word translated. All other times translated elsewhere it is 'steps' yet here it translates it. You can see here how many different ways this is translated. Even the sun is made into sunlight or shadow.

Another thing we need to take into consideration was that Ahaz was an evil King. Where did his sundial come from?



הנני משיב את צל המעלות אשר ירדה במעלות אחז בשמש אחרנית עשר מעלות ותשב השמש עשר מעלות במעלות
אשר ירדה

There are many different types of sundials but they all work on the same basic principles. I don't need to know what kind of sundial Ahaz built but I have even seen theories that it was actually a set of steps to one of his upper rooms that created shadows which marked the hours of the day. Again, same basic principles that work on a heliocentric model but do not work on a flat-earth model.

QuesArchaeology

 

[bèlla]

Rolleston covers the subject in depth in Mazzaroth. You may want to check it out.

~bella

 

[Yahudim]

I totally agree, There is a realm that we don't see and I don't think it would be good to as it would boggle the mind and faith wouldn't be necessary. The thing is we are told about this but many miss it.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

When the LORD made a covenant with the Israelites, he commanded them: “Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them.

Excellent observation about Faith. I completely agree.

Have you seen the latest additions to my old thread Revelation and the Yom Kippur Temple Service? I would be grateful for your incisive observations. Most particularly the last few posts concerning the Creation account and the correlations with other 'Sevens'.

 

[Lulav]

Excellent observation about Faith. I completely agree.

Have you seen the latest additions to my old thread Revelation and the Yom Kippur Temple Service? I would be grateful for your incisive observations. Most particularly the last few posts concerning the Creation account and the correlations with other 'Sevens'.

No, I haven't, I will be sure to take a look at it later. Good seeing you back again PH.

There are many different types of sundials but they all work on the same basic principles. I don't need to know what kind of sundial Ahaz built but I have even seen theories that it was actually a set of steps to one of his upper rooms that created shadows which marked the hours of the day. Again, same basic principles that work on a heliocentric model but do not work on a flat-earth model.

I'll have to do some experiments but for starters, most 'sundials' are flat while one with actual steps is not.
It almost sounds to me like the pyramid in Mexico - Chichen Itza - the shadow of the 'serpent god' on the winter solstice.

Rolleston covers the subject in depth in Mazzaroth. You may want to check it out.

~bella

I'll take a look, thanks Bella!

 

[dani'el]

God did not dictate the Torah to Moses. I believe he was given a commission to oversee the writing of Torah. But it includes more ancient writings, additions by priests, and others according to the scholars in my JPS Study TNK.

Lulav said: "These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
"And Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD."

That is from Exodus 24:4, I think. Moshe had just been given a series of "just decrees" by the Lord. These are what he brought down to the Hebrews- not the entire Torah. Much of it had not even yet occured. For example the building of the Mishkan, the wandering in the wilderness, the golden calf ... . Also reading the notes in my JPS Tenach there were at least 4 sources for writings in the Torah. So no, I do not believe God gave Moses the entire Torah atop Sinai. I believe he did get a commission to oversee the writing of the Torah. However I suspect this will go in that column where you believe He did, I don't, and we could argue about it until we see Revelation fulfilled. And what would be the point? We do agree the Torah is the foundation for all scripture, right?

As to the sun being a star: ok, call it the greater light, which obviously would be Jacob. The stars are his brothers, and the moon, the "lesser," and "different light" is his mother. Scripture still reads the same regardless which model we use- yours or mine. So I see no point in arguing the point. We can agree that her light was different because she would not be there to bow before Joseph. They obviously did not get that she wouldn't be there:

Genesis 37:10b ESV “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall I and your mother and your brothers indeed come to bow ourselves to the ground before you?”​

Had she not been represented either Jacob wouldn't have understood the reference to the family bowing before the younger son; or he would have been devastated by (or at the least his life dominated by worry over) the prophetic absence of his favored wife. So she had to be in the dream, but in a way prophecy would hold true since it was from God.

 

[daq]

I'll have to do some experiments but for starters, most 'sundials' are flat while one with actual steps is not.

The quickest and most simple experiment you can probably do is to make a horizontal sundial and do some simple shadow plotting. In one day you can locate geographic north and from that you can mark off due east and due west at right angles to geographic north. In that night you can look up in the sky, facing the sky according to the geographic north line on your horizontal sundial, and locate Polaris in the night sky, (the north star or pole star). Throughout that night, if you stayed up all night, you can watch the circumpolar constellations rotating around Polaris. By this very fact one may be assured that the earth is what is spinning, and not that the universe is spinning around the earth: all because earth's geographic north points out the pole star, Polaris, which is why it is called the pole star.

Toward the bottom of the following page there is a simple tutorial on how to make a very simple shadow plotter, (which is essentially a horizontal sundial), and use it to find geographic north.

Making a Horizontal sundial

 

[Lulav]

Lulav said: "These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
"And Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD."

That is from Exodus 24:4, I think. Moshe had just been given a series of "just decrees" by the Lord. These are what he brought down to the Hebrews- not the entire Torah. Much of it had not even yet occured. For example the building of the Mishkan, the wandering in the wilderness, the golden calf ... . Also reading the notes in my JPS Tenach there were at least 4 sources for writings in the Torah. So no, I do not believe God gave Moses the entire Torah atop Sinai. I believe he did get a commission to oversee the writing of the Torah. However I suspect this will go in that column where you believe He did, I don't, and we could argue about it until we see Revelation fulfilled. And what would be the point? We do agree the Torah is the foundation for all scripture, right?

But this disconnect seems to be what each believes to be Torah. The Ketubah, the things the LORD told Moses to tell the people to which they replied, all you have said we will do.

That was their collective 'I do' in the marriage. Those are the law and instructions. The history is Torah in a sense but not what I was referring to.

 

[dani'el]

"But this disconnect seems to be what each believes to be Torah. The Ketubah, the things the LORD told Moses to tell the people to which they replied, all you have said we will do.
That was their collective 'I do' in the marriage. Those are the law and instructions. The history is Torah in a sense but not what I was referring to."

There is no disconnect. It is simply what was, and is the case.

All 5 of the books of Moses are Torah. This includes history, examples, choices ... and of course some absolutes. Torah means "instruction," and all of it is that.

The context is what was given at Sinai. The ketubah was their agreement to do all Moses said after speaking with the Almighty, whose voice and presence they feared.

Torah can also mean all scripture, and they like us are responsible for all we are given. I see your point, and agree with you that is what we agree to when we come to Elohe Yeshuathi (God of My Salvation) and accept His free gift. But the basis for everything is laid out in all of Torah, history included. In fact, the history is emphasized over and over as God tells us to "remember." We should remember history not as an abstract lesson, but as though we lived it ourselves! Invest not only in what happened, but the mindset of those who lived it. That is how we learn the lessons therein. It is how we learn gratitude for what He has done for us. And it is how we learn to live holy before a Holy God.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

The only scripture they had at the time was the Tenach, and especially the Torah. That is what was taught (and still is) every Shabbat. It's our foundation; all of it.​