Seven headed beast

[Douggg]

The woman represents a spiritual city, Babylon,

No, it will be the Vatican that the ten kings will burn to the ground in Revelation 17:16.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The inscription on the woman's head of Mystery, Babylon the great, mother of harlots and abominations of the earth - is indicating what has influenced the woman to become a harlot, harlot.

Mystery, Babylon the great is the spiritual kingdom of Satan and his angels.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No, it will be the Vatican that the ten kings will burn to the ground in Revelation 17:16.

No, the woman represents something much larger than just the Vatican. The woman, also called the great city, Babylon, is the spiritual opposite of the new Jerusalem which is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9).

I can do this all day. I can repeat myself just as much as you repeat yourself.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The inscription on the woman's head of Mystery, Babylon the great, mother of harlots and abominations of the earth - is indicating what has influenced the woman to become a harlot, harlot.

Mystery, Babylon the great is the spiritual kingdom of Satan and his angels.

Now, that's closer to the truth of the identity of the woman. For some reason, you are not understanding that the woman and the great city Babylon are one and the same. The reason that it says "Mystery, Babylon the great, MOTHER of harlots and abomination of the earth" on the woman's head is because the woman is Babylon the great and is the mother of harlots.

 

[Douggg]

Now, that's closer to the truth of the identity of the woman. For some reason, you are not understanding that the woman and the great city Babylon are one and the same. The reason that it says "Mystery, Babylon the great, MOTHER of harlots and abomination of the earth" on the woman's head is because the woman is Babylon the great and is the mother of harlots.

When people have the number of the beast, the name of the beast, or the mark of the beast inscribed on their foreheads - does that mean that they themselves are the beast ? No, it does not. It means that they have been influenced by the beast.

Same for the woman. She will have been influenced by Mystery Babylon the great - the spiritual kingdom of Satan and his angels.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When people have the number of the beast, the name of the beast, or the mark of the beast inscribed on their foreheads - does that mean that they themselves are the beast ? No, it does not. It means that they have been influenced by the beast.

That's not a valid comparison. As you do so often, you try to relate things that are not related. You are overlooking something here. Babylon is that great city and it says the woman is that great city. That means the woman is Babylon.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Same for the woman. She will have been influenced by Mystery Babylon the great - the spiritual kingdom of Satan and his angels.

The woman IS that great city Babylon (Revelation 17:18).

 

[Douggg]

That's not a valid comparison. As you do so often, you try to relate things that are not related. You are overlooking something here. Babylon is that great city and it says the woman is that great city. That means the woman is Babylon.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


The woman IS that great city Babylon (Revelation 17:18).

The inscription is Mystery Babylon the Great not just Babylon the Great, because it is not a normal earthly city or kingdom.

The ten kings will hate the woman and destroy her with fire, Revelation 17:16. And they hand their kingdom over to the beast, Revelation 17:17.

1. the ten kings will rule with the beast-king for one hour (42 months)
2. the beast-king will be given power by Satan. Revelation 13:4
3. the beast-king will be worshiped (an abomination)
4. a statue image will be made of the beast-king at the direction of the false prophet. The abomination of desolation.

So, if the woman is Babylon the Great - mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, why would the ten kings hate her and destroy her with fire ? Given that the ten kings themselves partake in beast-king's abominations of the earth ?

Mystery Babylon the Great is the kingdom of Satan and his angels. Which that kingdom consisting of Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9 and dismantled and destroyed by God.

 

[Valletta]

The seven mountains are where the woman sits - a city, not a country (kingdom).

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The city is Rome, the location of the Vatican, which through the RCC has influence around the world. The woman is the Vatican, which the ten EU kings will burn to the ground in Revelation 17:16.

Rome sits on seven hills, but the Vatican hill is not one of them. The Vatican is across the Tiber river, you have to cross past some of the old walls of the city of Rome to get there. Many Christians believe the great city is pagan Rome, the city that martyred all of those Christians.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The inscription is Mystery Babylon the Great not just Babylon the Great, because it is not a normal earthly city or kingdom.

Right. Where did I say otherwise? I have said many times that I see Babylon the Great as referring to the spiritual opposite of the new heavenly Jerusalem which is "the bride, the Lamb's wife". It's mysterious in that it's not an earthly city like the earthly Babylon was.

The ten kings will hate the woman and destroy her with fire, Revelation 17:16. And they hand their kingdom over to the beast, Revelation 17:17.

1. the ten kings will rule with the beast-king for one hour (42 months)
2. the beast-king will be given power by Satan. Revelation 13:4
3. the beast-king will be worshiped (an abomination)
4. a statue image will be made of the beast-king at the direction of the false prophet. The abomination of desolation.

So, if the woman is Babylon the Great - mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, why would the ten kings hate her and destroy her with fire ? Given that the ten kings themselves partake in beast-king's abominations of the earth ?

Mystery Babylon the Great is the kingdom of Satan and his angels. Which that kingdom consisting of Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9 and dismantled and destroyed by God.

You didn't even address what I said. Again...

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The woman IS that great city Babylon (Revelation 17:18).

It says Babylon is that great city and the woman is that great city. Therefore, the woman is Babylon. Very simple. But, you are trying to make them into different entities despite scripture calling both Babylon and the woman "that great city".

 

[Douggg]

You didn't even address what I said. Again...

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The woman IS that great city Babylon (Revelation 17:18).

It says Babylon is that great city and the woman is that great city. Therefore, the woman is Babylon. Very simple. But, you are trying to make them into different entities despite scripture calling both Babylon and the woman "that great city".

The destruction of spiritual Babylon is described in Revelation 18:10. That's not the issue.

The issue of where we are differing is that you say the woman is Mystery Babylon the Great the mother of harlots and abominations on earth. And I am saying... NO the woman is not the mother of abominations on the earth - otherwise, the ten kings aligned with the beast-king would not seek to destroy the woman.

If the woman were Babylon the Great, then the ten kings would be embracing her - not seeking to destroy her in Revelation 17:16.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The destruction of spiritual Babylon is described in Revelation 18:10. That's not the issue.

No, the issue is as I've said which you are ignoring.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The woman IS that great city Babylon (Revelation 17:18).

One verse says that Babylon is that great city and another verse says that the woman is that great city. Therefore, the woman is Babylon. Very simple. But, you are trying to make them into different entities despite scripture calling both Babylon and the woman "that great city".

If I say that you are a man and you are a Christian, am I talking about two different people? No. I'm describing you in two different ways. That's the case for "that great city" as well. It is described as "Babylon" and "the woman". So, the woman and Babylon are the same entity (that great city) being described in two different ways.

The issue of where we are differing is that you say the woman is Mystery Babylon the Great the mother of harlots and abominations on earth. And I am saying... NO the woman is the mother of abominations on the earth - otherwise, the ten kings aligned with the beast-king would not seek to destroy the woman.

If the woman were Babylon the Great, then the ten kings would be embracing her - not seeking to destroy her in Revelation 17:16.

I don't understand what your reasoning is here. Why do you say that the ten kings would embrace Babylon the Great instead of destroying her? Where are you getting that idea from exactly?

 

[Douggg]

I don't understand what your reasoning is here. Why do you say that the ten kings would embrace Babylon the Great instead of destroying her? Where are you getting that idea from exactly?

I made a typo in my last post. I went back and fixed to read...

And I am saying... NO the woman is not the mother of abominations on the earth - otherwise, the ten kings aligned with the beast-king would not seek to destroy the woman.

....I left out the "not" the mother of abominations on the earth.

My logic is that the ten kings will rule with the beast-king. The beast-king will be king 8 of Revelation 17:11. And the beast-king will be part of the abomination of desolation. The woman, if she were the mother of abominations, would not be someone the ten kings would want to destroy.
.

No, the issue is as I've said which you are ignoring.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The woman IS that great city Babylon (Revelation 17:18).

One verse says that Babylon is that great city and another verse says that the woman is that great city. Therefore, the woman is Babylon. Very simple. But, you are trying to make them into different entities despite scripture calling both Babylon and the woman "that great city".

Thanks for explaining your rationale. I understand your logic.

GREAT CITY IN THE BIBLE

See 'great city' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

However, the woman will be destroyed by the ten kings by fire. Which the ten kings are in league with Babylon the Great because of the abominations they will partake in. It does not make sense therefore to destroy the woman if she were the one perpetuating abominations of the earth.

The woman's connection with Mystery Babylon the Great is that she has been influences by Babylon the Great.

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Why do you not consider that Mystery Babylon the Great is the kingdom of Satan and his angels ? Or do you ?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I made a typo in my last post. I went back and fixed to read...

And I am saying... NO the woman is not the mother of abominations on the earth - otherwise, the ten kings aligned with the beast-king would not seek to destroy the woman.

....I left out the "not" the mother of abominations on the earth.

So, what do you make of this verse then...

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

My logic is that the ten kings will rule with the beast-king. The beast-king will be king 8 of Revelation 17:11. And the beast-king will be part of the abomination of desolation. The woman, if she were the mother of abominations, would not be someone the ten kings would want to destroy.

Why do you say that when, as I just showed above the woman has "a golden cup in her hand full of abominations"? Despite that, the ten kings still want to destroy her, so your logic doesn't hold water.

Do you miss that God is the one who leads them to want to destroy her?

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

So, if you look at this from the perspective that God is actually the one who is leading the ten kings to do that, can you then understand why they would do it? Clearly, God would want to destroy the woman who is the mother of abominations, right?

Thanks for explaining your rationale. I understand your logic.

I think it was the third time I explained it. Third time is the charm, I guess.

GREAT CITY IN THE BIBLE

See 'great city' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

However, the woman will be destroyed by the ten kings by fire. Which the ten kings are in league with Babylon the Great because of the abominations they will partake in. It does not make sense therefore to destroy the woman if she were the one perpetuating abominations of the earth.

The woman's connection with Mystery Babylon the Great is that she has been influences by Babylon the Great.

Nope. The woman IS Babylon the Great because both the woman and Babylon the Great are "that great city".

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The woman IS that great city Babylon (Revelation 17:18).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do you not consider that Mystery Babylon the Great is the kingdom of Satan and his angels ? Or do you ?

I don't have a problem with that interpretation. I have said many times that I believe Babylon is not a literal earthly city, but is purely a spiritual entity and is the spiritual opposite of the heavenly new Jerusalem which is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:2,9). All believers are spiritual citizens of the new heavenly Jerusalem (Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 12:22) and all unbelievers are spiritual citizens of Babylon the Great.

 

[Douggg]

So, if you look at this from the perspective that God is actually the one who is leading the ten kings to do that, can you then understand why they would do it? Clearly, God would want to destroy the woman who is the mother of abominations, right?

The woman is the Vatican. The ten kings will be in league with the beast-king who will claim to be god and speak against Jesus.

The Vatican, in spite of all it's faults, still believes in the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. That belief and teaching will go against the beat-king's claims and that of the ten kings aligned with the beast king. So the ten
kings will destroy the Vatican, burn it to the ground for that reason.

@Spiritual Jew , for the ten kings to destroy the woman with fire like it says in Revelation 17:16 the woman has to be a physical entity like the Vatican. So that is why I view there being the woman as the physical entity.... while the Babylon the great as a spiritual entity. The spiritual entity will be destroyed by fire also in Revelation 18:8-10, but by God's judgment. Revelation 18:8.

So, what do you make of this verse then...

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

I think the Vatican bought some of the merchandise of Babylon the Great. And the Vatican interacted with the kings of the earth (political gain for them) in exchange for religious gains (for the Vatican) by recognition of the Vatican's hierarchy policies for such things as the Pope's so called infallible status, and title of holy father to all members of the RCC.

Merchandise of Babylon the great.

Revelation 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The woman is the Vatican. The ten kings will be in league with the beast-king who will claim to be god and speak against Jesus.

The Vatican, in spite of all it's faults, still believes in the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. That belief and teaching will go against the beat-king's claims and that of the ten kings aligned with the beast king. So the ten
kings will destroy the Vatican, burn it to the ground for that reason.

@Spiritual Jew , for the ten kings to destroy the woman with fire like it says in Revelation 17:16 the woman has to be a physical entity like the Vatican. So that is why I view there being the woman as the physical entity.... while the Babylon the great as a spiritual entity. The spiritual entity will be destroyed by fire also in Revelation 18:8-10, but by God's judgment. Revelation 18:8.

Doug, Doug, Doug. Why do you make scripture say what you want it to say? You say that the woman is destroyed by fire AND that Babylon is destroyed by fire, but somehow the woman has to be a physical entity with Babylon being a spiritual entity. You are saying that for no other reason than doctrinal bias. You just ignore the fact that both the woman AND Babylon are described as "that great city". I mean, you just completely IGNORE that. Why? They are both described as "that great city" and both described as being destroyed by fire, but somehow they are not the same? I can't take that seriously.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, Doug, Doug. Why do you make scripture say what you want it to say? You say that the woman is destroyed by fire AND that Babylon is destroyed by fire, but somehow the woman has to be a physical entity with Babylon being a spiritual entity. You are saying that for no other reason than doctrinal bias. You just ignore the fact that both the woman AND Babylon are described as "that great city". I mean, you just completely IGNORE that. Why? They are both described as "that great city" and both described as being destroyed by fire, but somehow they are not the same? I can't take that seriously.

Babylon the great is not said to sit on seven mountains in Revelation 18, like the woman in Revelation 17:9.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Babylon the great is not said to sit on seven mountains in Revelation 18, like the woman in Revelation 17:9.

Doug, this is an argument from silence which is no argument at all. Where does it say that Babylon the Great does not sit on seven mountains? Nowhere. You can't say something isn't true just because something isn't mentioned one way or another about it.

The woman is "that great city" and Babylon is "that great city", so if the woman sits on seven mountains that means Babylon the great sits on seven mountains because the woman and Babylon are the same entity also known as "that great city".

If all you have left is pointless arguments from silence like this then I think the discussion is over and we just need to agree to disagree.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, this is an argument from silence which is no argument at all. Where does it say that Babylon the Great does not sit on seven mountains? Nowhere. You can't say something isn't true just because something isn't mentioned one way or another about it.

The woman is "that great city" and Babylon is "that great city", so if the woman sits on seven mountains that means Babylon the great sits on seven mountains because the woman and Babylon are the same entity also known as "that great city".

If all you have left is pointless arguments from silence like this then I think the discussion is over and we just need to agree to disagree.

Rome the city of seven hills (mountains).
The Vatican - head of the RCC - associated with the city of seven mountains by being called the Roman Catholic Church.
The bishops dressed in purple.
The cardinals dressed in scarlet
gold objects throughout the Vatican
the sixth (Nero) of seven kings (Julio-Claudians) ruling at the time of John. Associated with the Rome Empire.
the woman to be destroyed by fire by the ten end times kings. associated with king eight, the beast-king.

How can the ten kings destroy a spiritual (not physical) kingdom of Babylon the Great ?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Rome the city of seven hills (mountains).
The Vatican - head of the RCC - associated with the city of seven mountains by being called the Roman Catholic Church.
The bishops dressed in purple.
The cardinals dressed in scarlet
gold objects throughout the Vatican

That description matches both the woman and Babylon the Great because the woman is Babylon the Great. But, the woman is not the Vatican. Here is the description of Babylon the Great which shows that the colors associated with the woman are associated with Babylon the Great as well...

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

So, if you think that the woman is the Vatican, then you have no choice but to believe that Babylon the Great is the Vatican as well since what you described can be said of Babylon the Great as well. But, you already know that Babylon the Great is not the Vatican. You need to rethink all of this.

How can the ten kings destroy a spiritual (not physical) kingdom of Babylon the Great ?

You said this before...

The spiritual entity will be destroyed by fire also in Revelation 18:8-10, but by God's judgment. Revelation 18:8.

So, you already answered your own question. They will do it by God's judgment. Did you forget that the ten kings who destroy the woman do so because God puts it in their hearts to do so?

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The woman and Babylon the Great are "that great city" which means the woman is Babylon.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

 

[Douggg]

So, if you think that the woman is the Vatican, then you have no choice but to believe that Babylon the Great is the Vatican as well since what you described can be said of Babylon the Great as well. But, you already know that Babylon the Great is not the Vatican. You need to rethink all of this.

Babylon the Great was modeling the merchandise that the woman bought into. Babylon the Great is like the manufacturer's name tag on the shirt you are wearing.

 

[Valletta]

Rome the city of seven hills (mountains).
The Vatican - head of the RCC - associated with the city of seven mountains by being called the Roman Catholic Church.
The bishops dressed in purple.
The cardinals dressed in scarlet
gold objects throughout the Vatican
the sixth (Nero) of seven kings (Julio-Claudians) ruling at the time of John. Associated with the Rome Empire.
the woman to be destroyed by fire by the ten end times kings. associated with king eight, the beast-king.

How can the ten kings destroy a spiritual (not physical) kingdom of Babylon the Great ?

There is no "Roman Catholic Church," the name is the "Catholic Church."

Catechism of the Catholic Church

You are adding the word "associated," do not add or subtract from the Word of God. While both pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem have seven hills, I believe most Christian scholars agree apostate Jerusalem is the best fit.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Babylon the Great was modeling the merchandise that the woman bought into. Babylon the Great is like the manufacturer's name tag on the shirt you are wearing.

I've had enough, Douggg. No matter what I show you, you will try to find some way around it. I'm done. Thanks for the discussion.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.