What really are Stars?

[Lulav]

Who exactly were the morning stars? (I see that stars as angels, but there's more to it.) I don't see Jubilees 2 as a contradiction. The morning stars could have been created on day one, and more stars created on day four. They seem to be their abode. Stars don't move from their position in the celestial ball, angels do. I don't think they continually remain in the starlight but also have other forms, even as they appear to people throughout the bible, not just as lights. So again I go with my abode theory.

The passage I posted was from Job 38. Is that found in Jubilees 2 as well?

I agree that the morning stars are arch angels. Are you referring to creation before creation or gap theory? I understand that view but don't adhere. Everything including arch angels was created within six days. There was no creation before the six days.

[Exo 20:11 NIV] For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Yes, there are pros and cons on that subject but the sticking point for me is the formless and chaotic. If the LORD calls LIght into being doesn't it follow that he makes it perfect from the get go? Also there is the premise that the earth was flooded so really wasn't 'earth'.

 

[Lulav]

That verse uses the word made (asah) instead of create (bara').
And i believe i have read that these two words actually have a different meaning. the asah may mean to create from preexisting material, where as bara' means to create for no previous material.

Yes, there's that too.

 

[Paul4JC]

I’m not too interested in focusing on differences but would rather focus on what we agree on. I’m just trying to stick to the OP.


Here are some more interesting verses.

[Psa 104:4] He makes winds his messengers, flames of fire his servants.

[Heb 1:7] In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire."

[Luk 10:18 NIV] 1He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

[2Co 11:14 NIV] And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

[Act 12:7 NIV] Suddenly an angel of the Lord appeared and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him up. "Quick, get up!" he said, and the chains fell off Peter's wrists.

[Heb 12:29 NIV] for our "God is a consuming fire."

[Rev 8:10 NIV] The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water--

 

[d taylor]

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Angels do eat so there is that. And the food they eat is food that we also can eat.
Men ate angels’ food;
He sent them food to the full

 

[Lulav]

Yes the angel of light thing can help to shore up premise. I don't think only HaSatan can look that way either.

 

[Lulav]

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Angels do eat so there is that. And the food they eat is food that we also can eat.
Men ate angels’ food;
He sent them food to the full

are you speaking of the Manna?

 

[d taylor]

are you speaking of the Manna?

I am guessing that is what the verse from Psalms is speaking of.

 

[Paul4JC]

As mentioned before stars were/are worshipped as dieties.

[Deu 4:19] And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

[Deu 17:3] and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky,

[Jer 8:2 NIV] They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens, which they have loved and served and which they have followed and consulted and worshiped. They will not be gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

 

[visionary]

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​

My beliefs about stars 1. the sun is not a star, it is as the Bible states a great created light. 2. Stars are created lights that along with the moon (another created light) give light upon the earth at night. That stars are, as the sun and moon are, placed in the raqia (dome) above the earth. That somehow from their course in the heavens/sky/raqia, they helped in a battle fought against Sisera.

That it was a star, just like stated in The Bible that guided the wise men to The Messiah and that stood over where the child was.
That the stars will one day fall to earth like figs dropping from a fig tree.

I believe that what science calls planets, are actually stars.

Picking up on your point about the sun is not a star, are all stars not on fire? If they are on fire, are they suns? Since planets and their moons are seen from earth, yet the light they shed is a reflection and not fire, does that make them stars?

 

[Lulav]

Many don't believe the moon is a source of light but instead just a reflector.

Everyone knows that when you stand in the sun you feel it's warmth. If you stand in the shade it's cooler.

But with the moon it's the opposite.
However it is not well known that if you take a heat detector gun and aim it at an object in full moon light it will be cooler than the surrounding area.

 

[d taylor]

Picking up on your point about the sun is not a star, are all stars not on fire? If they are on fire, are they suns? Since planets and their moons are seen from earth, yet the light they shed is a reflection and not fire, does that make them stars?

Does this star look like it is on fire.

 

[d taylor]

Picking up on your point about the sun is not a star, are all stars not on fire? If they are on fire, are they suns? Since planets and their moons are seen from earth, yet the light they shed is a reflection and not fire, does that make them stars?

Also this verse states all three of God's creation sun, moon and stars differ.

There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

 

[Paul4JC]

Picking up on your point about the sun is not a star, are all stars not on fire? If they are on fire, are they suns? Since planets and their moons are seen from earth, yet the light they shed is a reflection and not fire, does that make them stars?

Biblically sun, moon, and stars, are identified categorically and uniquely. Otherwise, the moon is a sun too.

Planets are not in the bible except the word is used in Jude, translated wandering.
Strongs 4107 [e] planētai πλανῆται Greek Interlinear 12 wandering planEtai G4107 N-NMP a verb: straying

 

[Lulav]

Yes, in ancient times they were referred to as 'wandering stars'

 

[Lulav]

But they are still stars and they are a special part of the construct of the heavenly timepiece the LORD created.

 

[Paul4JC]

The late great Rob Skiba touched on the subject.

Angels as Stars?

 

[dani'el]

Angels- the term translated "angels" is "malachim," (singular malach). It means simply "messenger(s)" and can be heavenly messengers, men, or Elohim Himself (probably as Yeshua, who is "The Word").

Stars- the term is used both literally as the heavenly bodies (including the sun) which give light. The Moon of course reflects the light of the sun, so is a minor light but not a star.
The term is also used figuratively or metaphorically, and each time I can recall it either refers to humans or is unspecified. It can also be part of a title, which is a different application altogether. So I'd conclude it always means human beings if not talking of actual stars- unless someone can show me a place it was definitely used for something else.

Stars being worshiped- that men worship something does not give it that identity. Stars are not gods, though like anything else they may be used to represent gods for purposes of worship in rebellion to the true God.

 

[daq]

From some thoughts from this thread - I made all things New I got to thinking about the stars.

Let's look at what they are from a Biblical perspective. And if we say we believe in G-d Whom we cannot see and we believe in Yeshua whom we also have never seen but believe the Words in the Bible then we must believe they are true.

Put aside, if you can, what you have been taught outside of any Bible lessons and even some of them are tainted and let's just focus on the words in the Bible only.

The first mention of Stars of course is in the beginning, in Genesis. Let's just quote the facts from there.

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness​

Notice that the greater light (we call the sun) and the lesser light (we call the moon) was set in the firmament along with the stars.

Now I'm just going to quote passages that my hope is others will see what I'm seeing.

1. “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.”
2. “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”
3. “I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab, And destroy all the sons of tumult.
4. The Lord your God has multiplied you, and here you are today, as the stars of heaven in multitude.
5. Your fathers went down to Egypt with seventy persons, and now the Lord your God has made you as the stars of heaven in multitude.
6. They fought from the heavens; The stars from their courses fought against Sisera.
7. He commands the sun, and it does not rise; He seals off the stars...
8. When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained
   
9. When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
   
10. “Is not God in the height of heaven? And see the highest stars, how lofty they are!
11. He counts the number of the stars; He calls them all by name.
12. Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all you stars of light!
13. For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14. And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.
15. The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness.
16. “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”
17. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
18. raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
19. The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
20. Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
21. Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
22. Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
23. “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

I've numbered them so you can use a number for a reference you want to discuss.

My initial response to the thread title question: the stars display the finger of Elohim, (#8, Psalms 8:3), meaning the signs of the ABGaD, the alphabet, (for starters). However I think I also see the point you are getting at.

 

[dani'el]

Psalm 8 is a beautiful psalm, but to me always seems a bit cryptic as it can mean any or all of the three applications I mentioned. I never looked at it as meaning the finger of Elohim, as it very quickly transitions from His works of creation to His highest creation, man:
3 When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,
4a what is man that you are mindful of him,
Then it transitions to talk possibly about ha'moshiach:
4b and the son of man that you care for him?
2 Peter 1:19 & Revelation 22:16 refer to Yeshua as the Morning Star, and He is referred to as the Son of Man many times; and He referred to Himself as such: Matthew 12:32, Luke 12:8, and John 1:51. So I read this as being the literal creation of the stars, the creation of man, and the sending of our Redeemer. The hand of God was certainly there at creation, so I can see how one might interpret it that way. I just see it more as the moon and stars are the work of His fingers, and man (also His creation) is then literally compared to the stars, then it speaks of the son of man. It goes on to speak of "dominion." Man was given dominion over the Garden and all in it, and the messiah will be given dominion over the earth at His return. So the stars in this psalm could (in addition to literal stars) mean man or Yeshua; or likely both.

The lines get a little blurred in this one, so I can see how one might relate stars and 'the fingers of Elohim.' Interesting, but I just don't quite make the connection.

 

[Lulav]

The late great Rob Skiba touched on the subject.

Angels as Stars?

yes, I especially like his inclusion of Rev 9

1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.​

So how does a ball of fire/gas take a key and open something with it?