What is Saving Faith?

[RobertPate]

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God has judged sin, that is over and done with.

The great White Throne judgment has not happened yet. Our sins were judged at the cross. We were crucified with Christ, Galatians 2:20.

 

[d taylor]

The great White Throne judgment has not happened yet. Our sins were judged at the cross. We were crucified with Christ, Galatians 2:20.

There is no judgment for sin at the great white throne. The unbelievers there are being judged for their works, to establish their position in the lake of fire. There is one last look to see if they are in the book of life, i am sue at the unbelievers request. Because they may still be thinking that their works were good enough to get them in the book.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 

[Ligurian]

Does God love all of the people of the world? Not according to Paul.
Some are predestined for heaven... ...and others are predestined for hell:
Romans 8:29-30... ...Romans 9:18-21 [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Romans 9:22-29 are the "What if scriptures" It is not what God does. John 3:16 says that "God so loved the world".

You want Paul's anathema for quoting what he didn't write? I notice Paul's people doing this all the time, but calling down anathemas on the circumcision for not following what Paul wrote to the gentiles.
Which part of Galatians 1:8 don't you understand?

 

[RobertPate]

There is no judgment for sin at the great white throne. The unbelievers there are being judged for their works, to establish their position in the lake of fire. There is one last look to see if they are in the book of life, i am sue at the unbelievers request. Because they may still be thinking that their works were good enough to get them in the book.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Unbelievers don't have works that God will accept. Those at the Great White Throne died in their sins. I agree that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, but nothing is ours until it is received by faith. There is no need to check the books. The Lord knows who are his.

 

[RobertPate]

It looks like you want Paul's anathema for quoting what he didn't write. I notice Paul's people doing this all the time, but calling down anathemas on the circumcision for not following what Paul wrote to the gentiles. Which word of Galatians 1:8 don't you understand?

We either believe the Gospel or we don't. If we don't then we are anathema.

 

[d taylor]

Unbelievers don't have works that God will accept. Those at the Great White Throne died in their sins. I agree that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, but nothing is ours until it is received by faith. There is no need to check the books. The Lord knows who are his.

That may be so but they are checked. At least that is the way i read it.

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[d taylor]

Unbelievers don't have works that God will accept. Those at the Great White Throne died in their sins. I agree that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, but nothing is ours until it is received by faith. There is no need to check the books. The Lord knows who are his.

Eternal Life is received the moment of faith in The Messiah (Jesus). A person does not have to wait to see if they believed.

 

[Ligurian]

I don’t know where you come up with this stuff. No one can keep the law. Everyone who has tried has failed except for One Man. None of the passages you’ve mentioned here have anything to do with Jesus’ message to Nicodemus in John 3. The same message “and WHOSOEVER that believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life” refers to everyone both Jews and Gentiles. The judgement mentioned in John 3 refers to the judgement of the inhabitants of the earth not the earth itself because He specifically said “he who believeth is not judged but he who hath not believed is judged already. In every single reference to the word “world” He is referring to people not the actual planet earth.

You said, "No one can keep the law."

Then you don't understand what Matthew 5:17-42 is saying. Be thou perfect includes Repentance and Forgiveness. Jesus tells the Circumcision that if they don't forgive their brother, then the Father will not forgive their trespasses.

Forgive to be forgiven is not what Paul teaches the gentiles. And the Acts of the Apostles 15:20 shows that the gentiles aren't expected to keep much of the Law... which, in itself, flies in the face of that whole "Law nailed to the cross" theme.

You said, "the judgement of the inhabitants of the earth not the earth itself"

Well, duuh... the world isn't judged. But His people, by breaking the Law, have caused "the Earth mourns and the world is ruined". So... what is needed to break the curse? The people who were given the Law need to turn back to God and keep the Law. Jesus was sent only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... and He taught the whole Law according to its meaning. The Law written on the Heart will judge the heart... which Matthew 5:21-42 does. These are Kingdom Laws, given when the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth was at hand, for the people entering the Kingdom. The Kingdom is still at hand for the Circumcision.

John didn't write to the gentiles, because he was sent only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, too.
But the people who want to create unity are doing so at the expense of the truth.

Take a look at Deuteronomy 28: and see if you think the Law is over for the circumcision.

Deuteronomy 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe all his commandments, as many as I charge thee this day, then all these curses shall come on thee, and overtake thee.[16] Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.[17] Cursed shall be thy barns and thy stores.[18] Cursed shall be the offspring of thy body, and the fruits of thy land, the herds of thine oxen, and the flocks of thy sheep.[19] Cursed shalt thou be in thy coming in, and cursed shalt thou be in thy going out.

That means everywhere, in all the countries where the tribes of Israel were scattered. The following is Prophecy. Prophecy cannot be broken, so try to see past the Pauline veil.

Deuteronomy 28:43-52 [43] The (προσήλυτος) proselyte who is among you shall ascend over you upward and upward; but you shall go down lower and lower.[44] This one shall lend to you, but you to this one shall not lend; this one will be for the head, and you will be for the tail.[45] And shall come upon you all these curses, and they shall pursue you, and overtake you, until whenever they shall utterly destroy you, and until whenever they shall consume you. For you did not listen to the voice of the lord your God, to guard His Commandments and His Ordinances, as many as I gave charge to you.[46] And [they] will be for signs to you, and miracles, and among your seed until the eon.[47] Because you did not serve [the] LORD your God with gladness, and with a good heart, because of the multitude of all these. (John 14:15-17 guard/keep His Commandments)
[48] And you shalt serve your enemies whom the LORD shall send as a successor over you in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in the want of all things. And he shall put a collar of iron upon your neck, until whenever he should utterly destroy you.[49] Shall bring upon you [the] LORD a nation far off from [the] end of the earth, as the impulse an eagle, a nation of which you will not hear its voice;[50] a nation impudent in [its] face, who will not admire [the] face of an old man, and for [the] young will not show mercy.[51] And it will devour the progeny of your cattle, and the produce of your land, so as not to leave behind for you grain, wine, olive oil, herds of your oxen, and the flocks of your sheep, until whenever it should destroy you,[52] and should obliterate you in all your cities, until whenever should be demolished your walls--the high and the fortified [ones] upon which you rely upon them in all your land--and it shall afflict you in all your cities, which gave to you [the] LORD your God.

This impudent-faced far-away nation is the overflowing flood that will take down anyone who isn't hearing AND doing, Matthew 7:24-27... so apparently the gentile church will be gone. That same iron collar is called a yoke in Daniel and the Revelation. The same nation and king with an impudent face. Therefore, the curse.

Daniel 8:23-25 [23] And at [the] last of their kingdom, being full of the sins, shall rise up a king with an impudent face, and perceiving riddles.[24] And [is] fortified his strength, and not by his strength. And wonderfully he shall corrupt and shall prosper, and shall perform, and shall corrupt strong ones and people holy.[25] And the yoke of the collar shall prosper treachery in his hand, and in his heart he shall magnify himself, and by treachery he shall corrupt many, and for a destruction of many he shall establish himself, and as eggs in a hand he shall break.

Revelation 6:5 And when he had opened the seal third, I heard the third living creature saying, Come and see! And I saw, and behold, horse black; and the one sitting upon it having a balance scale [ζυγός, yoke] in his hand.

Who's in charge of the food supply today and who sets the prices? A nation far off, from the ends of the earth. Revelation 9:16-18 ...fire, smoke, brimstone(sulpher)... gunpowder.

 

[Ligurian]

Eternal Life is received the moment of faith in The Messiah (Jesus). A person does not have to wait to see if they believed.

Gentiles don't even believe their own apostle: even Paul says that certain behaviors won't inherit the kingdom.

"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."--Aleister Crowley, satanist.

 

[Ligurian]

You want Paul's anathema for quoting what he didn't write? I notice Paul's people doing this all the time, but calling down anathemas on the circumcision for not following what Paul wrote to the gentiles. Which part of Galatians 1:8 don't you understand?

We either believe the Gospel or we don't. If we don't then we are anathema.

Then I guess that makes you anathema... because you're quoting what Paul didn't write... from the very gospel that teaches the Holy Spirit is given because of works, John 14:15-17... ... against Galatians 3:2.

It's pretty sad when a circumcision-person knows more Pauline Theology than at least one gentile does.

 

[d taylor]

Gentiles don't even believe their own apostle: even Paul says that certain behaviors won't inherit the kingdom.

"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."--Aleister Crowley, satanist.

Inherit in The Bible means exactly as it means in everyday life. that is as a son or daughter may inherit possessions from their family. That is the meaning in The Bible, making inherit connected to a believers rewards from God the believers father. It would be enter The Kingdom if a passage was speaking about getting into The Kingdom.

 

[RobertPate]

Then I guess that makes you anathema... because you're quoting what Paul didn't write... from the very gospel that teaches the Holy Spirit is given because of works, John 14:15-17... ... against Galatians 3:2.

It's pretty sad when a circumcision-person knows more Pauline Theology than at least one gentile does.

No one will be saved or justified by their works, Romans 4:5. If that is what your church is teaching get out.

 

[Ligurian]

Eternal Life is received the moment of faith in The Messiah (Jesus). A person does not have to wait to see if they believed.

Gentiles don't even believe their own apostle: even Paul says that certain behaviors won't inherit the kingdom.

Inherit in The Bible means exactly as it means in everyday life. that is as a son or daughter may inherit possessions from their family. That is the meaning in The Bible, making inherit connected to a believers rewards from God the believers father. It would be enter The Kingdom if a passage was speaking about getting into The Kingdom.

Opinions vary.

kleronomeo = from kleronomos; to be an heir to:--be heir, obtain by inheritance, inherit.
kleronomos = from kleros (lot) and the base of nomos (law); a sharer by lot: heir.

Lot Law in the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel:

Matthew 19:28-29 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.[29] And every one that hath forsaken houses or brethren, or sisters or father, or mother or wife, or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold and shall inherit Everlasting Life.

Matthew 21:37-39 But last of all He sent unto them His Son saying, They will reverence My Son.[38] But when the husbandmen saw the Son they said among themselves, This is the heir: come, let us kill Him and let us seize on His inheritance.

Matthew 25:34-40 [34] Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ...[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me.
Matthew 12:49-50 And He stretched forth His hand toward His Disciples, and said, Behold My mother and My brethren![50] For whosoever shall do the will of My Father which is in Heaven, the same is My brother and sister and mother.

Revelation 21:7-8 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son.[8] But the fearful and unbelieving, and the abominable and murderers, and harlotmongers and sorcerers, and idolaters and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Ligurian]

Then I guess that makes you anathema... because you're quoting what Paul didn't write... from the very gospel that teaches the Holy Spirit is given because of works, John 14:15-17... ... against Galatians 3:2.

It's pretty sad when a circumcision-person knows more Pauline Theology than at least one gentile does.

No one will be saved or justified by their works, Romans 4:5. If that is what your church is teaching get out.

What makes you think the circumcision should be following Paul? Seriously.

1 Corinthians 4:15 and Ephesians 4:11 "ten thousand teachers"..."pastors and teachers"
VS
Matthew 23:8-10 and John 10:1-16 "one teacher"..."one shepherd"

Can someone "go to church" but avoid "pastors", "teachers", "fathers" and "rabbis"?

 

[RobertPate]

What makes you think the circumcision should be following Paul? Seriously.

1 Corinthians 4:15 and Ephesians 4:11 "ten thousand teachers"..."pastors and teachers"
VS
Matthew 23:8-10 and John 10:1-16 "one teacher"..."one shepherd"

Can someone "go to church" but avoid "pastors", "teachers", "fathers" and "rabbis"?

That is why I don't go to the organized church.

 

[BNR32FAN]

John didn't write to the gentiles, because he was sent only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, too.
But the people who want to create unity are doing so at the expense of the truth.

The gospel of John is not an epistle written only to any particular group or people, it’s a record of the gospel account just like the rest of the gospel accounts including Luke who was a gentile. Even in John’s epistles there is absolutely no indication that they were written to any particular group. He never once gives any indication in any of his epistles of who he is even writing to other than using words like “brethren” or “little children”. Like I said before Peter was sent to the Jews and yet he also preached to the gentiles in Antioch, Alexandria, Rome, and to Cornelius and his household. None of the apostles taught exclusively to any particular group. Paul was sent to preach to the gentiles and yet he preached in the synagogues every Saturday. The apostles were tasked with spreading the gospel TO ALL NATIONS.

 

[fhansen]

Here's the post. The sentence I quoted was at the bottom of it. My question concerned Protestant charges against Catholic "works salvation". I think you've answered it. I'll read on.

What is Saving Faith?



I see the charges of "works" being filed already.



This is a little unclear re: "regenerate". You're saying:

• The new birth is not before anything else, like faith for example? Anything else?
• The new birth takes place over time?

Are you speaking experientially "intact" and not about the declaration of righteousness (justification/ acquittal)?



We seem to share a similar experience regarding the "shallowness and confusion", and I'll add "error and broad disagreements", but it did not drive me to Catholicism. It simply drove me to an island and into the Text after obtaining some learnedness in mainly Greek exegesis. I left the island after 16 years of studies but remain in the Text as a "Christian".

I fully understand what you mean by "actually taught". It's one of the reasons I flagged you for your thoughts on the referenced post. Having been in Protestantism for a while, you have likely shared the routinely and openly expressed anti-Catholic focus within Protestantism. We can see a pretty typical example of that being expressed in some of these threads.

At this point I'm only concerned with what we - from whatever ism - know, understand, reference & interpret from God's Word. His Word, His Spirit, He is the Truth. All else as they say is translation (and a few other things).



And herein lies much of the never-ending debates.



I guess the question is whether the [Roman Catholic] church resolves this or seeks to resolve this. Also, I think within each group there are those who are involved in a "head-on" addressing of the issues. There are also some outside (to whatever degree) of groups working to address things head-on. Eventually, no matter the group, they have always been opposed. He's been opposed for as much time as we're informed of (and likely beyond) so what else can we expect?

Thank you for your thoughts. They are routinely appreciated.

Ok, so I wrote a lengthy response, which was also a bit repetitive, and I can post it if you’re interested but I thought I’d sum things up here either way.

It must be emphatically stated that the difference between the old and new covenants is not that the new is a reprieve from the penalty of sin so long as I believe, as if personal righteousness no longer mattered, as if unrighteousness/sin no longer stands between myself and salvation. The difference is that now, with the new, I’m not only forgiven of sin but can now overcome sin; I have the righteousness, God’s life, grace, implanted in me as a seed so that now, in union with Him, a union that man was made for, we can accomplish what the old could not. God, alone, can justify man IOW. And man must cooperate in His work, picking up his cross and following daily.

Paul was objecting to the idea that works of the law can justify us, and, as we think about it, of course we cannot be justified by works of the law, as if the mere show or external appearance of righteousness could actually make us holy, which is legalism. Again, God is the source of our holiness, so Jesus speaks of the necessity of being clean on the inside first of all, in Matt 5, the Sermon on the Mount, as well as Matt 23 in His diatribe against the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. Man has no righteousness apart from union with God-and he enters into that union via faith.

 

[d taylor]

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I would like to see a written eternal life salvation plan. That would be used by one of the believers in, obedience salvation for receiving eternal life salvation.

What is told to the person/people who, you may encounter on a street, etc.. who may ask, what do i need to do, to go to heaven.

 

[fhansen]

Catholicism teaches, along with the eastern church, that salvation is a journey, characterized in the bible as an event, an ongoing process, and a future reality, but not one that we don't participate in. So, in Catholic teaching man cannot possibly find or come to God on His own, but come to God he must, as He moves and draws us, because man’s lost and possesses no righteousness on his own, apart from Him. The Pharisees were still on their own, paying lip-service to God while immersed in themselves; pride was still their comrade-and their enemy, the source of their blindness.

Anyway, the first step on the journey is to turn humbly to God in faith, acknowleldging our need for Him first above all else, not relying on ourselves, and, within that relationship, that communion, He justifes man. He forgives, washes, cleanses, and makes us new creations now finally capable of walking in the light. And, with that grace, by the Spirit, we must do so, and continue to do so, overcoming sin, repenting and returning back to Him if we seriously fail at that, doing good, not works of the law but works of grace, works of love motivated and enabled by Him. That's salvation, that's why eternal life consists in knowing God and His Son (John 17:3), the only One who can show us God, and the way to Him.

And then we trust in Him, that He'll bring us home to Himself providing we remain in Him with a life that shows evidence of walking in His light. At the end of the day, however, only He knows with absolute certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not, and we let Him give His just verdict then, at the end.

 

[AbbaLove]

I don't see much light shining through anyone. What I see is a lot of religious Gospel rejecters trying to save themselves.

Are you referring to those that have been indoctrinated to believe that the nine supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased to operate in Believers after the death of the original 1st Century Apostles?

That is why I don't go to the organized church.

Hopefully you've been blessed to have fellowship with Christians that are not rejectors of the Full Gospel with evidence of the supernatural Gifts of HIS Holy Spirit. Instead of a watered down gospel of man's feel good social christianity.

No one will be saved or justified by their works, Romans 4:5. If that is what your church is teaching get out.

Find fellowship in a FULL Gospel Church.