Essential Differences Between Dispensational and Non-dispensational Futurism

keras

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The 12 tribes do not exist and can never again exist. Period.
This statement is a direct rejection of many scriptures.
Revelation 7:3-8 plainly shows how the 12 tribes will again be together in the holy Land.
Ezekiel 47 t0 48 describes their Land boundaries.
Both are as yet, unfulfilled Prophesies.
 
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J_B_

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The goals of this post are to relate the differences between non-dispensational futurism and dispensational futurism, and why neither can be justified by the Bible.

With all such things, there is often a deeper issue that shades Biblical interpretation. Unless addressed honestly, these discussions are impossible.

IMHO, with respect to eschatology a key factor regards a nostalgic, reverential view of the geography and body politic of Israel (i.e. Jews).
 
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RandyPNW

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You simply cannot surmount that in their scattered condition Judah and Ephriam ceased to be nations with boundaries and territories but they did not cease being the descendants of Reuben, Gad, Naphtali and etc., no matter how corrupted their blood became. As Hosea affirms, Ephriam becomes mixed with the gentiles but God saves Ephriam in the end.

And we, as mortal men, do not determine what reality is to God. You have a bad habit of doing just that.

It's not a bad habit that I have--it's facing reality, which you seem incapable of doing. Ephraim was an OT expression for the N. Kingdom. Her success lay with the Jewish People in the NT era, a remnant of which converts to Christianity, the rest of which must decide either for the Christian nation or against it. This will happen at Christ's Return. It will fulfil the aspirations of all 12 tribes of Israel. And they are referenced because they were the original recipients of the promise of one Israel. They were *not* promised perpetual tribal status.
 
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RandyPNW

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This statement is a direct rejection of many scriptures.
Revelation 7:3-8 plainly shows how the 12 tribes will again be together in the holy Land.
Ezekiel 47 t0 48 describes their Land boundaries.
Both are as yet, unfulfilled Prophesies.

I don't reject the Bible. I reject *your interpretation* of the same. You live in a fantasy if you think the 12 tribes either still exist or will return to existence. These kinds of things don't happen in reality. So you are forcing your interpretation of Scriptures onto reality, making your belief an absurdity. That doesn't help win any converts to a rational religion.
 
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Timtofly

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Either you don't know history, or you wish to revise Christian history. Christian Rome was the beginning of Christian Civilization in Europe and throughout the world.

If you think human government is necessary to spread Christianity, you have it all wrong.

1st, Rome did divide into two halves, but both were Roman. So it was two halves of a single Imperial tradition--both Roman. So the Latin side and the Greek side both owed their spiritual inheritance to the work of Paul and Peter in Rome, along with others.

2nd, the joining of Church and State is not harlotry. God created Israel to be a theocracy, and He is no different with nations in the NT, wanting them all to be theocracies. Shame on you for calling this "Harlotry!"

If God governs a nation, that is one thing. Handing the church over to non-Christians is harlotry.

It is often mentioned that Christian States go corrupt, leading some to think that anything that can go corrupt cannot be God's plan. But God did begin with a theocracy with Israel, and it did go corrupt. Still, God does not think that theocracies are evil. He simply expects things to go downhill with the best system in place. This is not caused by the system, but by the sinners who administer that system.

Would you trust God? Do you trust humans?

Paul did not say State government was "inevitable." He said it was *God's will, to keep public order.*

Keeping public order is one thing. The church is tasked with spreading the Gospel, not controlling people's troubled behaviors.
 
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RandyPNW

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If you think human government is necessary to spread Christianity, you have it all wrong.

You know what the Scriptures say about govt. God not only sanctions it--He initiated it. It became a necessity after people, as a whole, stopped listening to God's word. He then initiated government to bring judgment to the lawless in societies.

Rom 13.Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.

1 Pet 2.13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.


If God governs a nation, that is one thing. Handing the church over to non-Christians is harlotry.

I can agree with that.

Would you trust God? Do you trust humans?

I trust God and barely trust those who know God.

Keeping public order is one thing. The church is tasked with spreading the Gospel, not controlling people's troubled behaviors.

Sorry, that is your idea for the Church--not God's. The Church consists of Christian people who are given a diversity of gifts. I think you can appreciate that God made Moses a virtual ruler over Israel, made Joseph a co-ruler with Pharoah, made Daniel a close adviser to Nebuchadnezzar, etc. The Bible has a number of examples of a mix between secular rule and religious rule.

What I don't countenance is having priests rule as kings, or kings serve as priests. Each has its own place, and both should be Christian. Either God wants a Christian society or not. Either He wants Christian Law in society or not. You think not? I wonder what you would have in its place?
 
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keras

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you are forcing your interpretation of Scriptures onto reality,
The Prophesies are plainly stated, no *interpretation* is required.

When we honestly examine the biblical record, it becomes clear that the so-called “lost” tribes of Israel are not really lost at all. Rather, it is their identity as Israel that has been lost. Thus, as we search for the “lost” tribes, we should not look for a Sabbath-keeping people who call themselves Israel. Indeed, as the exiled northern ten tribes wandered from the Middle East, they were known by other names; such as Cimmerians, Scythians, Celts, Saxons, etc. names historians and researchers have not linked to ancient Israel, mostly because it doesn’t fit with their beliefs. They say the Western peoples are Caucasians and ignore how they got to the Caucasus region.


When Jesus sent the twelve out to preach the Gospel, He said: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter into a city of the Samaritans [Gentiles who displaced the northern tribes]; but go instead to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 10:5-6

Jesus and His disciples knew the whereabouts of the “lost” northern tribes—and that they, in fact, were the “house of Israel.” So did Josephus.
Why do we hear almost nothing of the original apostles after about 60 AD? After preaching the Gospel to the Jews and being rejected by them, the apostles took the Gospel to the northern tribes where they had become re-established in new lands. During the years immediately preceding the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, we hear nothing of Peter and James? Why? They went, as Christ instructed, to the “lost” tribes of Israel and the Gospel was accepted by them; now the Christianized Western nations. Jesus’ Mission WAS successful!


Prior to the House of Israel going into captivity, the prophet Amos quoted God as saying: Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful [Israelite] kingdom, and I will erase it from the face of the earth [it would disappear as a kingdom]; except that I will not completely destroy the house of Jacob [Israel],’ says the

LORD. ‘For lo, I will command, and I will shake the house of Israel among all the nations, as one shakes with a sieve, yet not a grain shall fall to the earth.

That is, the Israelites as a people would not be utterly lost or destroyed. Amos 9:8-9

As a nation, the northern kingdom vanished in captivity and was later “sifted” among numerous countries. But it was not utterly subsumed by them. This truth shows how amazing God’s plan is; His chosen people hidden amongst the nations, who will fulfil the prayer of Solomon: 2 Chronicles 6:36-39

Writing during the Jews’ captivity in Babylon, (135 years after the fall of Samaria) Daniel refers as well to those Israelites who were afar off, scattered throughout many nations, Daniel 9:7, but not lost to God.

After suffering decades of harsh punishment in captivity, significant numbers of Israelites would migrate toward the northwest, re-establishing themselves in Europe, Scandanavia and from there: around the world. Over time they would re-emerge as Christians, from every tribe, race nation and language, yet ignorant of their own true identity!

Contrary to misinformed scholars and those with another agenda, the ancient House of Israel was not “irretrievably lost”—for God has decreed that they would remain His people. In fact, their modern descendants are the majority in several of today’s nations. Moreover, the House of Israel is still to be reunited with the House of Judah in the latter days in the: as yet unfulfilled prophecy of Ezekiel 37:16-22.
 
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Timtofly

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I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means… God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. (Romans 11:1-2 ESV)​

You should actually go by what the Bible says before you make such bogus comments. According to Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30 God has been redeeming Jacob since the first advent if fulfillment of prophecy.

What I promote is that dispensationalism, RT, and non-dispensationalist futurism derive their errors from the same corrupted root and that is they fallaciously maintain that “God removed Israel from being Israel.”
When did I post God removed Israel from being Israel? I pointed out that Amil make that claim.

Israel set aside is about salvation. The church taking the place of Israel is about replacement theology.
 
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Timtofly

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You know what the Scriptures say about govt. God not only sanctions it--He initiated it. It became a necessity after people, as a whole, stopped listening to God's word. He then initiated government to bring judgment to the lawless in societies.

Rom 13.Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.

1 Pet 2.13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

I never posted the church should overthrow the government.

Sorry, that is your idea for the Church--not God's. The Church consists of Christian people who are given a diversity of gifts. I think you can appreciate that God made Moses a virtual ruler over Israel, made Joseph a co-ruler with Pharoah, made Daniel a close adviser to Nebuchadnezzar, etc. The Bible has a number of examples of a mix between secular rule and religious rule.

What I don't countenance is having priests rule as kings, or kings serve as priests. Each has its own place, and both should be Christian. Either God wants a Christian society or not. Either He wants Christian Law in society or not. You think not? I wonder what you would have in its place?

I posted that the church should not give away their authority to the government.

You are confusing what it means to be a Christian, and having secular authority.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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When did I post God removed Israel from being Israel? I pointed out that Amil make that claim.

Israel set aside is about salvation. The church taking the place of Israel is about replacement theology.

Dispensationalism holds that Israel failed too, just like Amill, and that is where they derive the false notion that God ceased interceding for them until Christ returns.

According to Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30 God has been redeeming Jacob or interceding for them since the first advent if fulfillment of prophecy.

Dispensationalism is just the other side of the counterfeit coin as Amill is on the reverse.

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means… God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. (Romans 11:1-2 ESV)​
 
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Jerryhuerta

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I don't reject the Bible. I reject *your interpretation* of the same. You live in a fantasy if you think the 12 tribes either still exist or will return to existence. These kinds of things don't happen in reality. So you are forcing your interpretation of Scriptures onto reality, making your belief an absurdity. That doesn't help win any converts to a rational religion.

It’s obvious to anyone who has a modicum of a grasp in reality that you are vanquished on this thread but you aren’t able to see it yet.

In their scattered condition, Judah and Ephriam ceased to be nations with boundaries and territories but they did not cease being the descendants of Reuben, Gad, Naphtali and etc., no matter how corrupted their blood became. As Hosea affirms, Ephriam becomes mixed with the gentiles but God saves Ephriam in the end.

God’s promise of the gift of fecundity to the descendants of Jacob also vindicates the aforesaid; they were to be numerous as the stars and the sand by the sea.

Meditate on that and pray God helps you to see, to remove the beam from your eye; don’t worry about the splinter in mine. I'll pray for you too.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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With all such things, there is often a deeper issue that shades Biblical interpretation. Unless addressed honestly, these discussions are impossible.

IMHO, with respect to eschatology a key factor regards a nostalgic, reverential view of the geography and body politic of Israel (i.e. Jews).

You need to grasp the implications of Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30. God has been redeeming Jacob since the first advent if fulfillment of prophecy.

Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep, which is the object lesson in Matthew 13:24-30.

Christ's parables are rooted in what the prophets saw in this age.
 
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Timtofly

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Dispensationalism holds that Israel failed too, just like Amill, and that is where they derive the false notion that God ceased interceding for them until Christ returns.

According to Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30 God has been redeeming Jacob or interceding for them since the first advent if fulfillment of prophecy.

Dispensationalism is just the other side of the counterfeit coin as Amill is on the reverse.

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means… God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. (Romans 11:1-2 ESV)​
Depends on who holds what type of dispensation. If you deny Israel is not restored after the fulness of the Gentiles, you are as bad as those you claim are in the wrong.

The fulness of the Gentiles is a dispensation. Some may even call it an age. Amil claim there is only one age. Sin and eternal life. Those are not ages. Sin and eternal life is a condition. The age of eternal life started at the Cross. Amil just deny time after the Second Coming. Post mill don't even know when their millennium starts.

Paul's point was not that God rejected nor replaced Israel. Paul's point was Israel as a nation was placed on hold, until their King returned. Dispensation is just saying there was a change at the Cross marking a point in time that a dynamic changed between creation and God. Most don't even grasp what exactly changed at the Cross. Human theology has clouded how all view the Cross.
 
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DaveM

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Dispensation is just saying there was a change at the Cross marking a point in time that a dynamic changed between creation and God.

that is very interesting, I am wondering about what dynamic you are speaking of. if you could expand on that I would appreciate it

thanks
 
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keras

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Dispensationalism is just the other side of the counterfeit coin as Amill is on the reverse.

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means… God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. (Romans 11:1-2 ESV)
People should not be confused and holding to any special theory. Just rely on the Word.
The Israel that God foreknew, comprises the faithful peoples of the entire nation. Who still; mainly. remain scattered among the nations. Jews and those from the ten Northern tribes.

The 'Israel' that currently occupies a small part of the holy land, is not and cannot be the fulfilment of all the Prophesies about the restoration of all the tribes of Israel.
We await the Day, soon to happen; when the Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 17:25, +
 
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Timtofly

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that is very interesting, I am wondering about what dynamic you are speaking of. if you could expand on that I would appreciate it

thanks
The Resurrection and the Life. Paradise was opened to Adam's offspring who by Grace through Faith accepted the Atonement. Humans would no longer taste death, but enter eternal life. The eternal age after temporal life could now be entered by Adam's fallen offspring.
 
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RandyPNW

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The Prophesies are plainly stated, no *interpretation* is required.

When we honestly examine the biblical record, it becomes clear that the so-called “lost” tribes of Israel are not really lost at all. Rather, it is their identity as Israel that has been lost. Thus, as we search for the “lost” tribes, we should not look for a Sabbath-keeping people who call themselves Israel.

I agree that N. Israel was promised a future hope, along with the S. Kingdom. However, when the N. Kingdom was exiled as an apostate, pagan country, they were lost forever, with the exception of those who migrated south to engage in proper worship under the Law.

And so, Ephraim found its hope to be in the "Jewish People," and not in some genetic transmission into a morass of European peoples with no culture to link them any longer to the ancient Hebrews.
 
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RandyPNW

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I never posted the church should overthrow the government.
I posted that the church should not give away their authority to the government.
You are confusing what it means to be a Christian, and having secular authority.


I'm not confused at all. I look at history honestly. Christian States have existed since Rome converted to become a Christian Empire. Since that time Christian States have had both secular and ecclesiastical rulers. I don't get them confused. Do you?
 
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RandyPNW

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It’s obvious to anyone who has a modicum of a grasp in reality that you are vanquished on this thread but you aren’t able to see it yet.

That reflects an unmistakable worldly position, in that you think Christians arguing points with other Christians represents "vanquishing" one another. We are arguing for God's truth, and not for our own truth against one another.

In their scattered condition, Judah and Ephriam ceased to be nations with boundaries and territories but they did not cease being the descendants of Reuben, Gad, Naphtali and etc., no matter how corrupted their blood became. As Hosea affirms, Ephriam becomes mixed with the gentiles but God saves Ephriam in the end.

This is completely irrational. When the tribes of Israel stopped having boundaries and territories, they stopped investing in *tribes.* They rather invested in their descendants who were promised not 12 tribes but a united *nation!* How are you "winning" that argument? There are *no 12 tribes today!* You are living on the moon if you think 12 tribes still exist on earth!
 
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keras

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I agree that N. Israel was promised a future hope, along with the S. Kingdom. However, when the N. Kingdom was exiled as an apostate, pagan country, they were lost forever, with the exception of those who migrated south to engage in proper worship under the Law.
Not to God, they aren't. Amos 9:9
As for those few who did migrate South, they were assimilated into Judah and Judaism is not a religion of the Law that Moses gave.
And so, Ephraim found its hope to be in the "Jewish People,"
Your blatant pushing of false beliefs like this, is upsetting for how so much plainly stated scripture is ignored. Read carefully Hosea 5:14-15 - Ephraim exiled until they repent. Then Hosea 6:1-3 and Hosea 7:8-18, but God will relent and Ephraim will be redeemed; Hosea 11:6-11 As Gods faithful Christian people. Galatians 6:14-16

The basic difficulty you have, is holding on to the widely taught theory of the 'rapture to heaven', with the essential adjunct of a final Jewish redemption. Both ideas are wrong, they contradict many scriptures and will never happen.
 
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