Essential Differences Between Dispensational and Non-dispensational Futurism

[RandyPNW]

The true Church are currently many small organizations, still scattered around the world.

The Roman Church started as, and was a Satanic organization. Many members are faithful Christians now.

Okay, now you've completely lost me. The historic Christian Church was "Satanic?" Bye bye.

 

[keras]

Okay, now you've completely lost me. The historic Christian Church was "Satanic?" Bye bye.

The Roman Church, formed by Constantine was a Satanic construct. Proved by how they persecuted and martyred faithful Christians.
They still hold to and believe Satanic deceptions, such as transubstantiation and the Pope as Jesus' earthly representative.
There have always been pockets of true faithful believers. The established Church, even the Protestant ones, are basically businesses. The business of getting people to fund buildings and provide a cushy life for those who staff it.

Re the existence of the 12 Tribes. they do exist today. They are hidden by God, His people scattered among the nations. He watches over them Amos 9:9
We do know who most of the House of Judah are, but the House of Israel was exiled from the holy Land in 722-713 BC They WILL return, as is prophesied many times and proved by how their exile was for a decreed time; Ezekiel 4:4-5 Which was multiplied by 7 because of their continued sins. Leviticus 26:21

 

[RandyPNW]

The Roman Church, formed by Constantine was a Satanic construct. Proved by how they persecuted and martyred faithful Christians.

I don't generally engage in hate rhetoric against Catholics. I will say this that the Catholic Church is our mother, in a sense, as Christians. It was the beginning of the Church, which was originally established within the Roman Empire. And Paul did not oppose that. Instead, he encouraged our submission to the state and recommended prayers for it.

Granted, the Catholics brutalized the Reformers, and we've been told some of the Middle Age and Renaissance Popes were terribly corrupt. All churches tend to go through periods of decline over time. This cannot reflect on the entire history or value of the churches! But if they are presently in a state of complete apostasy, I will then agree with you--it is perhaps hopelessly compromised.

They still hold to and believe Satanic deceptions, such as transubstantiation and the Pope as Jesus' earthly representative.
There have always been pockets of true faithful believers. The established Church, even the Protestant ones, are basically businesses. The business of getting people to fund buildings and provide a cushy life for those who staff it.

What many Evangelicals don't realize today is that there used to be and still are state churches. The fact they have fallen on hard times doesn't mean they're all bad, nor that they were always bad. I happen to think the ideal church is a state church, because it indicates the entire nation subscribes to Christianity--a theocracy. It is a temporary form of God's Kingdom one earth just as Israel was in the OT.

As such, state churches were very mixed, mixing half-believers with true believers, with the result that beliefs reflected a sort of half-belief. Concoctions like transubstantiation sounded half true and half like magic. This reflected the mixed audience of the time.

Purgatory is the product of ancient speculation by the Church Fathers, who wondered aloud what happened to souls after they died. Really, it may have started as harmless speculation but evolved into dangerous traditions.

A lot of Catholic doctrine is corrupt today, like Mariolatry. That also began in the Early Church and evolved into something idolatrous. You can include with this the veneration and virtual worship of the saints, and prayers to dead saints.

Anyway, we're probably agreed on some of this. But I won't call the Catholic Church "satanic." That's overboard for me, and shuts down all communication with Catholics, some of whom are my best friends.

 

[keras]

Anyway, we're probably agreed on some of this. But I won't call the Catholic Church "satanic." That's overboard for me, and shuts down all communication with Catholics, some of whom are my best friends.

The difference is between the Organization and the individuals.
The RCC is corrupt and has been since its formation by Constantine, circa 300AD
Individuals in the modern RCC, can be faithful Christians; some probably better and far more Christ like than me.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I neither deny that I've strayed off the point nor that I denied God's omniscience. You are diverting from the argument by bringing up accusations, which are completely unnecessary. Why don't *you* stay on point? Why waste this time with unnecessary commentary and accusation? If you accuse me, I have to defend myself.



Are you kidding me? I told you there are no 12 tribal distinctions of Israel today!! How then should God not know this? How on earth can God be accused of not knowing who they are when they don't even exist! Talk about complete absurdity!

You are assuming these 12 distinct tribes exist when you can't find a single one of them, and can only claim, without evidence, that they are "in the mind of God!" If you can't even prove they exist how can you prove they exist in the mind of God?



How silly! It says no such thing! That's an incredible stretch of logic. If God made them undistinguishable to us then they are not considered distinguishable to Him either. He in fact is the One who made them no longer to be distinguished.

Your argument is like this. "God made it so that He hid from us the fact the earth is round. He knows the earth is round, but He deliberately made us think the earth is flat and appear to be so. So God knows the earth is round, but made us to think it is flat."



You cite references without showing them to prove what you claim.

There is a likely interpretation that would be more true to current reality, in which Ephraim no longer exists. The Prophet could be saying that Ephraim, in *his time,* would be happy to see the day when Israel is a single nation, in her final restoration. The Jews who survived in captivity and reconstituted as the "Jewish People" would one day be regathered into Israel as a single nation--not that the tribes would continue to exist until that time. The same with Eze 37.



No, see above. And I already answered that earlier.

"I understand Zechariah was after the captivities. But he is here explaining the disappearance of the division into two kingdoms. And this is time appropriate for Zechariah to mention, since he represented the kind of national restoration that the Jews were to look forward to.

What they were to look forward to was not more worthless kings who would divide Israel into two kingdoms. Instead, they would look forward to Christ, the Good Shepherd, who would suffer a blow, just as the prophets suffered rejection.

It was not an immediate promise of deliverance, but a note to expect things to get worse before they get better. But the division of the nation into two kingdoms would end by the judgment of all those who didn't participate in the return to Jerusalem."

Again, the tribal distinctions faded as the nation evolved and appeared as kingdoms. That was God's original intention--not tribes, but tribal evolution into a nation.

The tribes disappeared when the Davidic Kingdom emerged and when the Kingdom divided in two. And their full obliteration took place when they went into captivity and returned as a single nation, becoming "the Jewish People."

The Prophets told Israel in ancient times that this would happen. The tribal divisions would end with the restoration of Israel, following failure. That happened easily by the time of Christ, even if the people still made reference to their genealogies. The Levitical tribe remained important until the Law passed.

So, your product is that God reneged on his promises to the literal descendants of the twelve tribes and gives them to a people that only symbolizes them. Your spiritualized or figurative take on Revelation 7 is RT, without a doubt. So, it’s you who is the RT proponent here, not I. And I’m not in the market for such merchandise.

Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (Zechariah 11:14)​

As to Zechariah 11:14, as I stated, the text supports the “increase of division” between two nations. Your interpretation asserts a “disappearance of the division” that is a 180-degree twist. And I’m not in the market for such merchandise.

 

[RandyPNW]

So, your product is that God reneged on his promises to the literal descendants of the twelve tribes and gives them to a people that only symbolizes them.

Huh? I never once said that the Jewish People "symbolize" the tribes of Israel. Rather, they *are* the end product of the merging of all 12 tribes into one nation. Each tribe hoped in the ultimate nationalization of all 12 tribes. That was God's promise to Abraham, that he would become a "nation."

Why you think I'm saying this is symbolic I don't know? But it's certainly not what I'm saying. The tribes were, in a sense, the primordial state of national Israel. And all 12 tribes were to contribute and to benefit, in the end, equally in one nation.

Your spiritualized or figurative take on Revelation 7 is RT, without a doubt. So, it’s you who is the RT proponent here, not I. And I’m not in the market for such merchandise.

But I'm not RT by its definition. If all you want to do is call me a name, there--you did it! But I'm not RT. I believe God literally called Israel to be a nation as long as mortal man continues on the earth. That phase has simply been put off for two thousand years. In the meantime, other nations have been able to experience the same option they were given, to live in national covenant with God.

Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (Zechariah 11:14)​

As to Zechariah 11:14, as I stated, the text supports the “increase of division” between two nations. Your interpretation asserts a “disappearance of the division” that is a 180-degree twist. And I’m not in the market for such merchandise.

I'm not selling anything. I'm just telling you my opinion of this, to be consistent with all of the Bible.

So, your product is that God reneged on his promises to the literal descendants of the twelve tribes and gives them to a people that only symbolizes them. Your spiritualized or figurative take on Revelation 7 is RT, without a doubt. So, it’s you who is the RT proponent here, not I. And I’m not in the market for such merchandise.

Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (Zechariah 11:14)​

As to Zechariah 11:14, as I stated, the text supports the “increase of division” between two nations. Your interpretation asserts a “disappearance of the division” that is a 180-degree twist. And I’m not in the market for such merchandise.

That's a reasonably good argument. However, it seems likely that in Zechariah's time it would not make sense to make reference to Israel and Judah as if they continued to exist when everybody knew they no longer did.

So it seems to me that Zechariah was simply showing that a future act would relegate all hope of the two kingdoms as being impossible until the eschatological recovery of Israel. And that event was the cross, where Israel's covenant was made to appear as a failure. Israel and Judah both were kaput. Only the Jewish People remain until, hopefully, the restoration of Israel in the eschaton.

 

[keras]

Return of God’s Israelite people:

Jeremiah 30:23-24 See what a scorching wind has gone out from the Lord, a sweeping whirlwind, coming down onto the heads of the wicked. The Lords anger will not be turned aside, it will accomplish His purposes. In days to come, you will understand. This is the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath, the next prophesied event, the Sixth Seal of Revelation 6:12-17.

Jeremiah 31:1-6 At that time, I shall be the God of all the families of Israel and they will be My people, a people that have escaped the sword and found favour in the wilderness. From afar God has appeared to Israel. He loves and cares for them and will build them up again. Once again, they will be happy and the Land will be fruitful. They will worship God in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 20:34-36

The great story of the redemption of Gods people, now every true Christian, be they descendants of Jacob and those grafted in. God’s people will live in the new country of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in peace and prosperity. They will build the new Temple and worship similar to the ancient days. Zechariah 6:15, Ezekiel 40 to 48

Jeremiah 31:7-9 The Lord says: be joyful for Jacob’s sake, sing praises and say: God has saved His people, He has preserved a remnant of Israel. See how He brings them from all parts of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, women and children. A vast company, they come with weeping and prayer, God will comfort and guide them. He will lead them by streams of water, on smooth paths, for He is the Father to Israel and Ephraim is His eldest son. Isaiah 11:11-13, Isaiah 62:10-12

Israel and Judah, scattered around the world. Their remnant is “a vast company”. Far more than just the Jews, it must be that the descendants of Jacob are now 100s of millions. Zechariah 8:4-13, Isaiah 49:19-20

Jeremiah 31:10-14 Listen to the Word of the Lord, you nations, make it known to people far away. He who scattered Israel, will gather them again and will watch over them as a shepherd watches over his flock. For God has redeemed Jacob [the 12 tribes] and delivered them from their enemies. His righteous people will come with great joy into a Land of plenty and peace. Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:14-15,

God’s people’s enemies will be defeated, then they will be gathered and settled into all of the holy Land, that area promised to Abraham, so long ago. Ezekiel 47:13-23

Jeremiah 31:15-20 Rachel weeps for her children. [Rachel is the mother of Jacob/ Israel] Shed no more tears, for they will leave the nations and return to their own Land. God has disciplined Ephraim, like an unruly bull calf. After Ephraim strayed, he repented and now in shame and remorse, reproaches himself for the sins of his youth. God says: Ephraim is still My dear son, in whom I delight, I still remember him and have compassion for him. Hosea 11:8-9

Bull in Hebrew= aegel, became Angle, then Anglo-Saxon. Saxon= Isaac’s sons. Ephraim, the British peoples, ( Hebrew – Brit-ish means Covenant people) was the leader of the 10 tribes finally exiled in 718/717 BCE. 2730 years ago, that is: 390 X 7 Ezekiel 4:4, Leviticus 26:18

Jeremiah 31:21-22 Set up signs to mark your way, the path for your return. Come back virgin Israel to your towns. How long will you wander, My wayward child? Isaiah 63:17-19 This will happen: a woman will protect a man.
The many cairn dolmens across Europe mark their route. Jeremiah 31:21

Jeremiah 31:23-25 The Lord says: When I bring My people back from exile, they will live in all the Land and be satisfied. Once more will these words be heard in the Land; God bless you, the home of righteousness, the holy mountain.

‘the Holy mountain’–the Temple mount. The 3rd Temple will be built and the ordinances reinstated, until the Return of Jesus. Ezekiel 40- 48, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Revelation 11:1-2

Jeremiah 31:26-28 The days are coming, says the Lord, when I will plant Israel and Judah then increase their people and livestock. In the past My intent was to uproot and inflict disaster upon them, now I shall watch over them, to build and plant. Micah 7:11-12

The sins of the forefathers are expiated by the Israelites long exile. Isaiah 27:7-9


Jeremiah 31:29-30 It will no longer be said that children will suffer for their parents sins. Only those who sin will be punished for it. Ezekiel 18:20

Jeremiah 31:31-34 The days are coming when I shall establish a new covenant with Israel and Judah. It will not be like the one that I made with their forefathers, when I took them out of Egypt, that covenant they broke, though I was patient with them. This will be the new Covenant that I will make with the whole House of Israel, in the latter days; I shall set My Law within them, in their hearts, all of them will know and obey Me. I will forgive and forget their wrongdoing. Ezekiel 37:26, Ezekiel 39:25-29

Jeremiah 31:35-37 The Lord says: As the sun and stars are set in their courses, as the wind and the sea roars- only if this fixed order changes, then, no more could Israel ever cease to be a nation before Me. Micah 7:19-20, Isaiah 14:1-2

Jeremiah 31:39-40 The days are coming when Jerusalem will be rebuilt in My honour. It will be holy to Me, never again to be demolished. Micah 7:11, Jeremiah 30:18 Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.


This passage from the book of the prophet Jeremiah, tells the story of how the Lord will punish the unrighteous by a fire judgement, then how His Christian people, from every nation and language, Galatians 3:26-28, will once again live in the Land that He promised to their ancestors, actual or spiritual. Isaiah 51:1-2

The Lord will make a new covenant with them, in order for His believers to fulfil their destiny to be “a light to the nations”, and to spread to Gospel of the coming Kingdom of God. This will be carried out by the 144,000 as described in Revelation and Isaiah 66:19. The preview of this is in Luke 10:1-20; the 72 sent out then, will become 72 + 72 x 1000= 144,000.

They will live in peace and security for several years, in the new country of Beulah, all of the holy Land area promised to Abraham so long ago. Ezekiel 34:24-31, Joel 2:23-27

When they are settled and prosperous, the Lord will motivate a Northern confederation to come and attack Beulah, Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 39:1-2. They will be totally wiped out by the Lord, Ezekiel 38:21-22, Ezekiel 39:3-5, Joel 2:20. This is in order to display His glory and power to all the nations. Ezekiel 38:23, Ezekiel 39:21

Meanwhile, the rest of the world will slowly recover from the terrible fires and earthquakes of the Day of the Lord’s wrath and they will form a One World Government, initially controlled by ten Presidents, but another man will rise to take dictatorial powers. He makes a seven year peace treaty with Beulah, that not all the Beulahites agree with. Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:32

This marks the commencement of the final seven years of this age. At the middle of this time, the World Dictator comes to Jerusalem and forcibly places his image in the Temple. Daniel 11:31 This triggers the 3½ year Great Tribulation, the Trumpet and Bowl judgements. Those Beulahites who refused any dealings with the ‘beast’ - Daniel 11:32, Revelation 13:1-5, are taken to a place of safety. Revelation 12:14
After that, will come the culmination of this age – the Return of Jesus, He will destroy the armies mustered for battle in Armageddon. Revelation 16:16, Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5 Then, to reign on earth for 1000 years. Zechariah 14:6-11

Great will be that time!

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Huh? I never once said that the Jewish People "symbolize" the tribes of Israel. Rather, they *are* the end product of the merging of all 12 tribes into one nation. Each tribe hoped in the ultimate nationalization of all 12 tribes. That was God's promise to Abraham, that he would become a "nation."

Why you think I'm saying this is symbolic I don't know? But it's certainly not what I'm saying. The tribes were, in a sense, the primordial state of national Israel. And all 12 tribes were to contribute and to benefit, in the end, equally in one nation.



But I'm not RT by its definition. If all you want to do is call me a name, there--you did it! But I'm not RT. I believe God literally called Israel to be a nation as long as mortal man continues on the earth. That phase has simply been put off for two thousand years. In the meantime, other nations have been able to experience the same option they were given, to live in national covenant with God.



I'm not selling anything. I'm just telling you my opinion of this, to be consistent with all of the Bible.


That's a reasonably good argument. However, it seems likely that in Zechariah's time it would not make sense to make reference to Israel and Judah as if they continued to exist when everybody knew they no longer did.

So it seems to me that Zechariah was simply showing that a future act would relegate all hope of the two kingdoms as being impossible until the eschatological recovery of Israel. And that event was the cross, where Israel's covenant was made to appear as a failure. Israel and Judah both were kaput. Only the Jewish People remain until, hopefully, the restoration of Israel in the eschaton.

As for Revelation 7, I’m certainly not at fault for failing to grasp your meandering, convoluted, and ad hoc explanations. It’s taking me time to figure out your ad hoc explanation comes down to the 144k “are” 12 tribes and “are not” 12 tribes at the same time, which is fallacious. What you’re saying is that the 144k is contrived. If the tribe of Reuben does not actually represent the literal descendants of the patriarch Reuben then the tribe in Revelation 7 is a contrivance, period.

A contrivance is an artificial rather than natural selection or arrangement of details, parts, etc.

I don’t buy that the 144k represent a contrivance; God’s word is not contrived.

As for Isaiah 11:12-13, Ezekiel 37:19-23, and Zechariah 11:14 they are not contrivances either. Ephraim and Judah represent the real distinct descendants of each nation because God’s word is not a contrivance.

And when Zechariah wrote that God would “break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel” that was not a contrivance either by any ad hoc explanation that the tribes ceased to exist at the time. Paul declares he is of the tribe of Benjamin, which is not a contrivance some hundreds of years later; it is a "real distinction" from the tribe of Judah and etc.

And the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus was infinitely closer to the contemporary events and extant records of the tribes of Israel than you are so your ad hoc explanations really don’t matter in comparison to his.

 

[claninja]

As to Zechariah 11:14, as I stated, the text supports the “increase of division” between two nations.

interesting.

how can there be an increase in division or breaking of brotherhood ( breaking of staff: zechariah 11:14) and yet the northern and southern tribes coming together as 1 under 1 king (fusion of staff: Ezekiel 37:18-22)?

 

[RandyPNW]

As for Revelation 7, I’m certainly not at fault for failing to grasp your meandering, convoluted, and ad hoc explanations.

I fail to see why every post is an opportunity for you to take "cheap shots?" So what if we disagree--does that make us any less brothers? None of what I've said is "ad hoc" or "convoluted." It's the product of many, many years of study and prayer, suffering corrections, changes, and finally settling, humbly on, "I think this," and "I think that." Not, if you don't agree with me, I'll insult you till the sun goes down! If you don't like what I say, you don't have to agree. But you certainly don't need to insult me!

It’s taking me time to figure out your ad hoc explanation comes down to the 144k “are” 12 tribes and “are not” 12 tribes at the same time, which is fallacious. What you’re saying is that the 144k is contrived. If the tribe of Reuben does not actually represent the literal descendants of the patriarch Reuben then the tribe in Revelation 7 is a contrivance, period.

Let me spell it out more clearly. The 144,000 is a vision. As such, it is symbolic of something that God intends to do in these last times, which encompasses the entire NT period.

What I believe God means by this is that He remembers His promise to make something of the original 12 tribes, giving them equal shares in the inheritance of Abraham. It is not the N. Kingdom vs. the S. Kingdom. It is not one tribe vs. another tribe.

All this comes with the background of Israel's failure to unite as a nation, thus preventing the prophecy from coming to pass. So God is saying that a unity of nation will in fact come to pass in the last days, bringing final deliverance for Israel from her enemies. In other words, in all of this outreach to the nations with Christianity God has *not* forgotten His promise to Abraham concerning the Jews.

But note that the 144,000 are not only equal groups, but they are also small groups, compared with the size of nations. So they are a remnant who later are described as faithful and righteous followers of Christ (see Rev 14). The number is figurative of a Jewish remnant in the last times who will bring about a single nation of Israel by their testimony to Christ.

Again, this is reference to an *old promise,* keeping in mind that the 12 tribes do not exist any longer, and haven't for thousands of years. The point is, the promise they were given, concerning the unity of Israel, will come to pass.

A contrivance is an artificial rather than natural selection or arrangement of details, parts, etc.

Keep in mind that even though tribal distinctions ended a very long time ago, genealogies can last way longer than geographic tribal distinctions. Today I may lay claim to German or Scandinavian ancestry. But it hardly means I live in a particular country associated with them.

In the case of Paul, his knew his ancestry was from Benjamin. But the land area of Benjamin no longer existed.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I fail to see why every post is an opportunity for you to take "cheap shots?" So what if we disagree--does that make us any less brothers? None of what I've said is "ad hoc" or "convoluted." It's the product of many, many years of study and prayer, suffering corrections, changes, and finally settling, humbly on, "I think this," and "I think that." Not, if you don't agree with me, I'll insult you till the sun goes down! If you don't like what I say, you don't have to agree. But you certainly don't need to insult me!



Let me spell it out more clearly. The 144,000 is a vision. As such, it is symbolic of something that God intends to do in these last times, which encompasses the entire NT period.

What I believe God means by this is that He remembers His promise to make something of the original 12 tribes, giving them equal shares in the inheritance of Abraham. It is not the N. Kingdom vs. the S. Kingdom. It is not one tribe vs. another tribe.

All this comes with the background of Israel's failure to unite as a nation, thus preventing the prophecy from coming to pass. So God is saying that a unity of nation will in fact come to pass in the last days, bringing final deliverance for Israel from her enemies. In other words, in all of this outreach to the nations with Christianity God has *not* forgotten His promise to Abraham concerning the Jews.

But note that the 144,000 are not only equal groups, but they are also small groups, compared with the size of nations. So they are a remnant who later are described as faithful and righteous followers of Christ (see Rev 14). The number is figurative of a Jewish remnant in the last times who will bring about a single nation of Israel by their testimony to Christ.

Again, this is reference to an *old promise,* keeping in mind that the 12 tribes do not exist any longer, and haven't for thousands of years. The point is, the promise they were given, concerning the unity of Israel, will come to pass.


Keep in mind that even though tribal distinctions ended a very long time ago, genealogies can last way longer than geographic tribal distinctions. Today I may lay claim to German or Scandinavian ancestry. But it hardly means I live in a particular country associated with them.

In the case of Paul, his knew his ancestry was from Benjamin. But the land area of Benjamin no longer existed.

I apologize, just watch the sarcasm.

As to visions, since when don’t they have literal elements? The 144k are literal because God’s promises are “literal” not imagined.

The preponderance of your arguments is classic RT. That is not an insult but the truth. They treat the 144k as figurative too; you just give the doctrine a slight adjustment.

RT also promotes that the tribes do not exist today as if that means their descendants vanished. Genetically they still exist, which you conceded. There is nothing prohibiting God from choosing (electing from the beginning) 12k of the descendants of Reuben and having them sealed. Your arguments are truly incredulous and unscriptural.

RT also promotes Israel had a covenant of works with a blind eye that the NC is by grace to both houses of Israel and God’s promises are literal, not illusionary. The people of the OT were saved by grace, and election, not by works. The law, the first covenant, could only condemn; it could not save anyone.

God ordained the Old Covenant to fail and to be replaced by a New Covenant, progressive in grace, which would bring the Old Testament prophecies to fruition.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

interesting.

how can there be an increase in division or breaking of brotherhood ( breaking of staff: zechariah 11:14) and yet the northern and southern tribes coming together as 1 under 1 king (fusion of staff: Ezekiel 37:18-22)?

Are you a hyper or classic preterist?

 

[RandyPNW]

I apologize, just watch the sarcasm.

I don't know that I did that, but I'm certainly capable of it. I'll try to keep watch. Thank you.

As to visions, since when don’t they have literal elements? The 144k are literal because God’s promises are “literal” not imagined.

I'm not trying to make you agree with me. I'm trying to explain why I believe the way I do. The tribal territories had clear boundaries. But those boundaries disappeared when? A very long time ago!

And that's because the 12 tribes were designed as a preliminary step towards a unified nation. That is what God promised Abraham, a unified nation, together with an assembly of many nations of faith, the Christian nations.

All of these were literal nations, and not just remnants. All of the countries of Europe at one time or another were *Christian nations," and not just ethnicities. So God called Israel as a literal nation, and He also called the Christian nations quite literally. It makes no difference whether they were perfect, or whether every citizen of these countries were genuine Christians. His promise to Abraham was that there would be all these nations of faith. And there were.

But God did not call for the 12 tribes to exist forever. They are recalled as those preliminary elements that were intended to lead towards national unity. The later split in the nation between northern and southern kingdoms indicated that the tribes had not yet coalesced into a permanent national unity.

I believe it is self-evident that the 12 Tribes in Rev 7 and 14 are symbolic because they no longer exist as tribal territories. And so, they represent a unified Israel of the future in which all 12 tribes will participate by their having merged into the one nation.

The preponderance of your arguments is classic RT. That is not an insult but the truth. They treat the 144k as figurative too; you just give the doctrine a slight adjustment.

I've been on these forums discussing these same subjects for over 20 years. And I can't recall anybody saying I was RT until recently. I'm clearly *not* RT! Your definition appears to be off.

RT also promotes that the tribes do not exist today as if that means their descendants vanished. Genetically they still exist, which you conceded. There is nothing prohibiting God from choosing (electing from the beginning) 12k of the descendants of Reuben and having them sealed. Your arguments are truly incredulous and unscriptural.

When you get DNA so diluted and distributed then you have no case for a restored set of 12 tribes. It is impossible. I say the Jewish DNA exists from all 12 tribes, but I'm not saying that they can reform into their original DNA families!

RT is not about denying the 12 tribes still exist. Rather, RT is about denying that Israel can be still treated as a promised nation of God, and can be restored as such. I believe that, and am clearly *not* an adherent of RT!

RT also promotes Israel had a covenant of works with a blind eye that the NC is by grace to both houses of Israel and God’s promises are literal, not illusionary. The people of the OT were saved by grace, and election, not by works. The law, the first covenant, could only condemn; it could not save anyone.

I can't understand what you're saying here? Paul only depicted the Jewish practice of Law as a system of works because that system did not yet rely upon the works of Christ. It doesn't mean their works under the Law were bad. Jesus only depicted them as bad when the nation fell into apostasy, and their practice of the Law had become totally corrupt--mere appearances.

Faith was the same for OT Israel as it is now for NT Christians. The only difference is that now that Christ has done the full work of redemption, Israel's work of maintaining a covenant relationship with God no longer depends on what they do. Since what they did was insufficient to obtain eternal life, what matters now is our producing works based on what Christ did, because he can indeed give us eternal life.

Israel's works were fine, and obtained grace, as long as it was done in true righteousness. It just couldn't buy them eternal life. Only Christ's works could accomplish that.

That doesn't mean the OT saints of Israel were 2nd class citizens of God's Kingdom. No, their faith was as good as our NT faith, inasmuch as it is all faith in God, who provided His Son for our full redemption. True faith is evidenced by the righteousness that we all receive from heaven. And that always comes by His mercy, OT and NT.

The only difference is that OT righteousness, as acceptable to God as it was, could not obtain eternal life until Christ rose from the dead. We get eternal life from Christ, by participating in his life, as he arose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

 

[keras]

Keep in mind that even though tribal distinctions ended a very long time ago, genealogies can last way longer than geographic tribal distinctions.

Ezekiel 47:13-23 and Ezekiel 48:1-35, describe in great detail the new tribal boundaries.
Which will come into effect soon after the forthcoming Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath has cleared and cleansed that entire area. As Deuteronomy 32:34-43 and many other Prophesies say He will.

If it is thought that these clearly stated Prophesies are not literal, or are past history, then there is ample proof that they are literal and will happen before Jesus Returns. Literal peoples and literal places.

All of Ezekiel Prophesies are addressed to Israel and the interactions between the Northern tribes and Judah. Ezekiel 21:1-14 tells of the fate of Judah and Ezekiel 37:1-14 says how Israel will become Christian, by the breath of the holy Spirit and then Ezekiel 37:15-28, how Israel and the remnant of Judah will rejoin. Obviously the rejoining has not happened yet, the result of it remains unfulfilled.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I don't know that I did that, but I'm certainly capable of it. I'll try to keep watch. Thank you.



I'm not trying to make you agree with me. I'm trying to explain why I believe the way I do. The tribal territories had clear boundaries. But those boundaries disappeared when? A very long time ago!

And that's because the 12 tribes were designed as a preliminary step towards a unified nation. That is what God promised Abraham, a unified nation, together with an assembly of many nations of faith, the Christian nations.

All of these were literal nations, and not just remnants. All of the countries of Europe at one time or another were *Christian nations," and not just ethnicities. So God called Israel as a literal nation, and He also called the Christian nations quite literally. It makes no difference whether they were perfect, or whether every citizen of these countries were genuine Christians. His promise to Abraham was that there would be all these nations of faith. And there were.

But God did not call for the 12 tribes to exist forever. They are recalled as those preliminary elements that were intended to lead towards national unity. The later split in the nation between northern and southern kingdoms indicated that the tribes had not yet coalesced into a permanent national unity.

I believe it is self-evident that the 12 Tribes in Rev 7 and 14 are symbolic because they no longer exist as tribal territories. And so, they represent a unified Israel of the future in which all 12 tribes will participate by their having merged into the one nation.



I've been on these forums discussing these same subjects for over 20 years. And I can't recall anybody saying I was RT until recently. I'm clearly *not* RT! Your definition appears to be off.



When you get DNA so diluted and distributed then you have no case for a restored set of 12 tribes. It is impossible. I say the Jewish DNA exists from all 12 tribes, but I'm not saying that they can reform into their original DNA families!

RT is not about denying the 12 tribes still exist. Rather, RT is about denying that Israel can be still treated as a promised nation of God, and can be restored as such. I believe that, and am clearly *not* an adherent of RT!



I can't understand what you're saying here? Paul only depicted the Jewish practice of Law as a system of works because that system did not yet rely upon the works of Christ. It doesn't mean their works under the Law were bad. Jesus only depicted them as bad when the nation fell into apostasy, and their practice of the Law had become totally corrupt--mere appearances.

Faith was the same for OT Israel as it is now for NT Christians. The only difference is that now that Christ has done the full work of redemption, Israel's work of maintaining a covenant relationship with God no longer depends on what they do. Since what they did was insufficient to obtain eternal life, what matters now is our producing works based on what Christ did, because he can indeed give us eternal life.

Israel's works were fine, and obtained grace, as long as it was done in true righteousness. It just couldn't buy them eternal life. Only Christ's works could accomplish that.

That doesn't mean the OT saints of Israel were 2nd class citizens of God's Kingdom. No, their faith was as good as our NT faith, inasmuch as it is all faith in God, who provided His Son for our full redemption. True faith is evidenced by the righteousness that we all receive from heaven. And that always comes by His mercy, OT and NT.

The only difference is that OT righteousness, as acceptable to God as it was, could not obtain eternal life until Christ rose from the dead. We get eternal life from Christ, by participating in his life, as he arose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

Revelation 7 says nothing about tribal boundaries or territories. You’re making that up. It says merely that 12k from the literal descendants of Reuben are sealed and etc. That is not only possible but necessary if God’s promises are literal, and they are. And no matter how diluted their blood has become there are a lot more than 12k in the world today that can trace their blood back to Reuben.


And you continue to promote RT. They argue that dilution or corruption of blood inhibits God from keeping his promise, too. Hosea 7:8 testifies that Ephraim's blood is corrupted too, but in the last chapter, the people of Ephraim are forgiven and saved.

As for your comment about RT denying that Israel can be still treated as a promised nation, you admit you believe that so you are a proponent of RT, with a slight adjustment.

But the true Israel, the remnant who avow Christ, is the Church; the Church never replaced Israel. The promises still go to the elect of Israel who were sown in the earth to bring in the gentiles (Revelation 7; Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30.)

You’re still sidestepping the ramifications of Revelation 7; Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30. And many others.

 

[RandyPNW]

Revelation 7 says nothing about tribal boundaries or territories. You’re making that up.

I'm making what up! I'm making up the fact 12 tribes represent 12 tribal territories? That's what they were!

You're saying that somehow they will exist in the future when they don't exist as sets of DNA, and they don't exist as territories. What exactly do you think 12 tribes means if they don't exist in any sense whatsoever except, as you may say, "in the mind of God?"

It says merely that 12k from the literal descendants of Reuben are sealed and etc. That is not only possible but necessary if God’s promises are literal, and they are. And no matter how diluted their blood has become there are a lot more than 12k in the world today that can trace their blood back to Reuben.

That's about as unscientific as one can get! You really think that someone's DNA can trace back to the tribe of Reuben? Pray tell me how anybody has done this?

And you continue to promote RT. They argue that dilution or corruption of blood inhibits God from keeping his promise, too. Hosea 7:8 testifies that Ephraim's blood is corrupted too, but in the last chapter, the people of Ephraim are forgiven and saved.

I'll say it again. Nobody but you claims I'm RT because of a disbelief in tribal territories or DNA today! That is not the definition of RT.

As for your comment about RT denying that Israel can be still treated as a promised nation, you admit you believe that so you are a proponent of RT, with a slight adjustment.

I admit I'm a proponent of RT when I say Israel remains a promised nation? You have got to be kidding?

It's one thing to make mistakes about something one doesn't know. It's an entirely different thing to accuse somebody of wearing a label that they themselves don't even understand. And you *do not* understand the term!

 

[keras]

That's about as unscientific as one can get! You really think that someone's DNA can trace back to the tribe of Reuben? Pray tell me how anybody has done this?

It is you, Randy; who thinks the bloodline of Judah is in the Jewish State of Israel. A total fabrication, as the Israeli citizens are as mixed and interbred as any other nation.
In the secular worldview, Israelis do represent Judah.
In God's view, it is we Christians who represent the true Israel.

Ephesians 2:11-18 is the scripture which makes a mistake of any thought of descent being of any value.
However: God does have a secret and we will know how it all works out after we go to live in all of the holy Land.

 

[claninja]

Are you a hyper or classic preterist?

Classic.

just curious if you might have some insight into how the NT sheds light on “increased hostility” between the north and south kingdoms and yet the north and south kingdoms coming together as one under the messiah?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I'm making what up! I'm making up the fact 12 tribes represent 12 tribal territories? That's what they were!

You're saying that somehow they will exist in the future when they don't exist as sets of DNA, and they don't exist as territories. What exactly do you think 12 tribes means if they don't exist in any sense whatsoever except, as you may say, "in the mind of God?"



That's about as unscientific as one can get! You really think that someone's DNA can trace back to the tribe of Reuben? Pray tell me how anybody has done this?



I'll say it again. Nobody but you claims I'm RT because of a disbelief in tribal territories or DNA today! That is not the definition of RT.



I admit I'm a proponent of RT when I say Israel remains a promised nation? You have got to be kidding?

It's one thing to make mistakes about something one doesn't know. It's an entirely different thing to accuse somebody of wearing a label that they themselves don't even understand. And you *do not* understand the term!

Show us where Revelation 7 states anything about tribal boundaries and territories. It doesn’t. But scripture does state that the elect of both houses were to be scattered or sown in the world and redeemed as a result of Christ’s first advent and before they are gathered and their land returned (Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30). I believe what the scriptures state, and not what RT, dispensationalism, or non-dispensationalism futurism make up.

Scripture affirms that the 144k are the bloodline of the 12 tribes even as corrupt as that bloodline becomes and scattered as they may be at the end, according to Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30.

You are a proponent of RT because you agree with them that Israel’s promises were taken from them at the first advent because they rejected Christ. The scriptures actually state that many were ordained to reject Christ but that the remnant would obtain what they were seeking in fulfillment of Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30. Nothing was taken from them because the Messianic kingdom was never ordained as a first advent phenomenon. The Messianic kingdom with all its tribal boundaries and territories was promised at the accomplishment of the second advent.

Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep (Zechariah 13:7; Matthew 13:24-30).

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Classic.

just curious if you might have some insight into how the NT sheds light on “increased hostility” between the north and south kingdoms and yet the north and south kingdoms coming together as one under the messiah?

One is the first advent the other is the second.