The Gospel Plus Nothing

[Soyeong]

You have the same doctrine as the Pharisees. It is all about you and your obedience. All of the Pharisees went to hell because they thought that their obedience was going to save them.

What never stopped identifying as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), and there were a group of Pharisees would were described as believers (Acts 15:5), so would you judge them all to hell? You should be careful with making judgements that you have no authority to make. There can be any number of reasons that someone could have for choosing to obey God's law, such as faith insofar as our faith upholds God's law (Romans 3:1), so there is a huge difference between these two statements:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to obey God's law.
2.) Our salvation requires us to choose to obey God's law in order to earn it as a wage.

There are many verses that support 1.) and many verses that deny 2.).

Under the New Covenant Paul said that the law had been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus nailed it to his cross, Colossians 2:14. Christians are not led by laws, rules and religion, they are motivated by their Love for Christ and his Gospel.

Why do you continue to cite those verses at me while also continuing to refuse to give any sort of justification for interpreting those verses as referring to God's law? Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his commandments, and the Gospel he taught called for us to repent and obey God's commandments, so it is contradictory for someone to be motived by their love for Christ and his Gospel instead of obeying God's commandments.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Christians do not have a righteousness that God will accept. We are accepted only in Christ and because of Christ. Christ is the Christians righteousness.

I agree with you that we don't have a righteousness of our own that God will accept, but I think you've misunderstood what I was saying.

However, a so-called 'faith' without either repentance from sin or a love for other people isn't really 'faith.' And how do I know this? Because I read the rest of the letter to the Philippians and see that Paul has presented parameters as to what 'faith' does in a person's life. It's more than mere belief in Jesus ...

 

[Ligurian]

Christians do not have a righteousness that God will accept. We are accepted only in Christ and because of Christ. Christ is the Christians righteousness.

Which explains why only Saul and Barnabas had "christian" disciples in Antioch.

 

[Ligurian]

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, but you want to be complete in Christ instead of walking in the same way he walked, so you are rejecting the way to be complete in Christ and the way to believe in him.

The way Ιησους walked

Psalms 146:5-10 Blessed is he whose helper is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord his God: who made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all things in them: who keeps truth for ever: who executes judgment for the wronged: who gives food to the hungry. The Lord looses the fettered ones: the Lord gives wisdom to the blind: The Lord sets up the broken down: the Lord loves the righteous: the Lord preserves the strangers; he will relieve the orphan and widow: but will utterly remove the way of sinners. The Lord shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Sion, to all generations.LXX

 

[Ligurian]

In Matthew 7:23, Christ said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so that should cause you to reconsider promoting being workers of lawlessness.
[...]
It it pointless for God to give instructions while also refusing to accept our obedience to His instructions as if what He wants is our disobedience.

In the Matthew 7:21-23 verses are prophets and miracle-workers, which the Sermon on the Mount never asks His Disciples to be (Matthew 7 is part of the Sermon that started in Matthew 5). Failure to both hear and do these words of the Father given to the Son is literally a house built on a foundation of sand (Matthew 7:26-27).

 

[Ligurian]

You have the same doctrine as the Pharisees. It is all about you and your obedience. All of the Pharisees went to hell because they thought that their obedience was going to save them.

What never stopped identifying as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), and there were a group of Pharisees would were described as believers (Acts 15:5), so would you judge them all to hell? You should be careful with making judgements that you have no authority to make.

Then what have you decided to do with all of this?

Matthew 10:25 It is enough for the Disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Matthew 15:12-14 Then came His Disciples, and said unto Him, Knowest Thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?[13] But He answered and said, Every plant, which My Heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.[14] Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the pit.

Matthew 21:33-45 But last of all He sent unto them His Son saying, They will reverence My Son.[38] But when the husbandmen saw the Son they said among themselves, This is the heir: come, let us kill Him and let us seize on His inheritance.[39] And they caught Him and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].[40] When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will He do unto those husbandmen?[41] They say unto Him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out His vineyard unto other husbandmen which shall render Him the fruits in their seasons.

Matthew 22:2-7 And the remnant took His servants, and entreated them spitefully and slew them.[7] But when the King heard thereof He was wroth: and He sent forth His armies, and destroyed those murderers and burned up their city.

Matthew 23:34-38 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:[35] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the Earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

John 9:39-41 And Ιησους said, For judgment I am come into this world that they which see not might see, and that they which see might be made blind.[40] And some of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words and said unto Him, Are we blind also?[41] Ιησους said unto them, If ye were blind ye should have no sin, but now ye say, We see: therefore your sin remaineth.

John 7:47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?[48] Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on Him?

 

[fhansen]

I agree with you that we don't have a righteousness of our own that God will accept, but I think you've misunderstood what I was saying.

However, a so-called 'faith' without either repentance from sin or a love for other people isn't really 'faith.' And how do I know this? Because I read the rest of the letter to the Philippians and see that Paul has presented parameters as to what 'faith' does in a person's life. It's more than mere belief in Jesus ...

In the historical understanding of the Christian faith, man has no righteousness of his own, which is why the law cannot justify him. Righteousness comes from God, alone, and we must turn to Him in faith in order to obtain the righteousness that we were created to have-and He created no one to be a sinner. Faith makes God our God again; it places man into right order, into the state of being he was created for: subjugation to God based on trust and love. Man was made for that union and is lost, sick, dead without it. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

And from that relationship righteousness flows, as a free gift according to Scripture. So faith is the first right step that a man can make which is why it pleases God immensely. It’s both a gift of grace, and a human choice.

“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

And the essence of that righteousness is love, which is why the greatest commandments happen to be what they are, and why it’s said that love fulfills the law. That righteousness is the reason that there’s no condemnation in Christ, because as sin is overcome, as we become “slaves to righteousness” instead (Rom 6), there’s nothing to be condemned for.

“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith inJesus Christ to all who believe.” Rom 3:21-22

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” Jer 31:33-34

That’s grace. And from there we’re expected to remain in Him, we must remain in that vital, life-giving relationship, under grace, living by the Spirit, doing His will, walking in His light.

 

[RobertPate]

What never stopped identifying as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), and there were a group of Pharisees would were described as believers (Acts 15:5), so would you judge them all to hell? You should be careful with making judgements that you have no authority to make. There can be any number of reasons that someone could have for choosing to obey God's law, such as faith insofar as our faith upholds God's law (Romans 3:1), so there is a huge difference between these two statements:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to obey God's law.
2.) Our salvation requires us to choose to obey God's law in order to earn it as a wage.

There are many verses that support 1.) and many verses that deny 2.).



Why do you continue to cite those verses at me while also continuing to refuse to give any sort of justification for interpreting those verses as referring to God's law? Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his commandments, and the Gospel he taught called for us to repent and obey God's commandments, so it is contradictory for someone to be motived by their love for Christ and his Gospel instead of obeying God's commandments.

If you love Jesus, you will not have to be commanded to love him. Why is it you have to be told not to sin against the Lord. Paul said, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient" 1 Timothy 1:9. Are you lawless and disobedient? Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments". Obedience motivated by love, not by law.

 

[fhansen]

If you love Jesus, you will not have to be commanded to love him. Why is it you have to be told not to sin against the Lord. Paul said, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient" 1 Timothy 1:9. Are you lawless and disobedient? Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments". Obedience motivated by love, not by law.

Now, this is truth. And obey we must, but the right way now, finally, through the love that comes only from God as we turn to Him in faith. Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century believer, put it this way:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

 

[RobertPate]

Now, this is truth. And obey we must, but the right way now, finally, through the love that comes only from God as we turn to Him in faith. Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century believer, put it this way:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

When you say, "We must obey" that is law. If you do anything because you "must" that is law. Catholicism is a must, must, must religion. Like the Pharisees you must obey the law. It is not possible for you to live by faith, it "must" be by faith plus works or you believe that you are not saved.

 

[Clare73]

In the historical understanding of the Christian faith, man has no righteousness of his own, which is why the law cannot justify him. Righteousness comes from God, alone, and we must turn to Him in faith in order to obtain the righteousness that we were created to have-and He created no one to be a sinner. Faith makes God our God again; it places man into right order, into the state of being he was created for: subjugation to God based on trust and love. Man was made for that union and is lost, sick, dead without it. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

And from that relationship righteousness flows, as a free gift according to Scripture. So faith is the first right step that a man can make which is why it pleases God immensely. It’s both a gift of grace, and a human choice.

“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

And the essence of that righteousness is love, which is why the greatest commandments happen to be what they are, and why it’s said that love fulfills the law.

And does Romans 13:8-10 there put us under one rule--love, for obedience to multiple commandments, or does it put us under multiple commandments for obedience to one rule--love, as is alleged by some?

That righteousness is the reason that there’s no condemnation in Christ, because as sin is overcome, as we become “slaves to righteousness” instead (Rom 6), there’s nothing to be condemned for.

“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith inJesus Christ to all who believe.” Rom 3:21-22

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” Jer 31:33-34

That’s grace. And from there we’re expected to remain in Him, we must remain in that vital, life-giving relationship, under grace, living by the Spirit, doing His will, walking in His light.

 

[fhansen]

When you say, "We must obey" that is law. If you do anything because you "must" that is law. Catholicism is a must, must, must religion. Like the Pharisees you must obey the law. It is not possible for you to live by faith, it "must" be by faith plus works or you believe that you are not saved.

No, obedience is the most basic command, which is why it was right for Adam to be commanded to obey in Eden. The problem isn't with the command, or the law, the problem is that obedience doesn't come by virtue of law: the law cannot justify. So the obligation for man to do the right thing, begining with faith, is right and good. But he cannot do that on his own, and that's the curse of the law because, as the Catholic church teaches:

1963 According to Christian tradition, the Law is holy, spiritual, and good,14 yet still imperfect. Like a tutor15 it shows what must be done, but does not of itself give the strength, the grace of the Spirit, to fulfill it. Because of sin, which it cannot remove, it remains a law of bondage. According to St. Paul, its special function is to denounce and disclose sin, which constitutes a "law of concupiscence" in the human heart.16

If man has no obligation then he has no need for knowledge, for revelation, for the bible, for hearing the Word of God, for faith. He'd be like any other animal in creation. He'd have no need for Christ, or for knowing about Him, at least, let alone any need need for opening the door when He knocks. Man's obligation is simply to not say "no", to respond to God when He calls so that He may enter under our roof. As we enter and remain in that relationship, which is the right order or state of justice in itself for man, He causes the change, the righteousness, the love that satisfies that obligation in this life. To the extent that we sin, we show that we haven't remained in Him.

The obligation to be righteous does not go away with the new covenant. It simply cannot be acheived by the law, on our own (Phil 3:9) but only by and with God.

 

[RobertPate]

No, obedience is the most basic command, which is why it was right for Adam to be commanded to obey in Eden. The problem isn't with the command, or the law, the problem is that obedience doesn't come by virtue of law: the law cannot justify. So the obligation for man to do the right thing, begining with faith, is right and good. But he cannot do that on his own, and that's the curse of the law because, as the Catholic church teaches:

1963 According to Christian tradition, the Law is holy, spiritual, and good,14 yet still imperfect. Like a tutor15 it shows what must be done, but does not of itself give the strength, the grace of the Spirit, to fulfill it. Because of sin, which it cannot remove, it remains a law of bondage. According to St. Paul, its special function is to denounce and disclose sin, which constitutes a "law of concupiscence" in the human heart.16

If man has no obligation then he has no need for knowledge, for revelation, for the bible, for hearing the Word of God, for faith. He'd be like any other animal in creation. He'd have no need for Christ, or for knowing about Him, at least, let alone any need need for opening the door when He knocks. Man's obligation is simply to not say "no", to respond to God when He calls so that He may enter under our roof. As we enter and remain in that relationship, which is the right order or state of justice in itself for man, He causes the change, the righteousness, the love that satisfies that obligation in this life. To the extent that we sin, we show that we haven't remained in Him.

The obligation to be righteous does not go away with the new covenant. It simply cannot be acheived by the law, on our own (Phil 3:9) but only by and with God.

Catholicism is a denial that man is a fallen sinner, born after Adam. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12. Works, laws and religion cannot change that. Man's old Adamic nature cannot be re-habilitated by works, laws and religion. Nor can man's old Adamic nature be annihilated by works, laws and religion. It can be subdued, but it cannot be annihilated.

Therefore, if fallen man is to be saved, his salvation must come to him totally and completely outside of himself. It has in the work and the person of Jesus Christ, Therefore as by the offence of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

 

[Der Alte]

Catholicism is a denial that man is a fallen sinner, born after Adam. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12. Works, laws and religion cannot change that. Man's old Adamic nature cannot be re-habilitated by works, laws and religion. Nor can man's old Adamic nature be annihilated by works, laws and religion. It can be subdued, but it cannot be annihilated.
Therefore, if fallen man is to be saved, his salvation must come to him totally and completely outside of himself. It has in the work and the person of Jesus Christ, Therefore as by the offence of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

These vss. seem to indicate all mankind will be saved, the unrighteous and righteous alike, but let us read a few more vss. which indicate something else.
First to whom is the epistle addressed?

Romans 1:7
(7) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

The "beloved of God, called to be saints:" not all mankind so the reflexive pronouns; we, us, our etc. refer only to "the beloved of God called to be saints."

Romans 5:11
(11) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.​

"we, our" The "beloved of God, called to be saints" not all mankind. have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:18 cannot mean all mankind will be saved when Paul has already said for certain people "God gave the up, God gave them over."

Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 2:8-9
(8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
(9) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;​

"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;" does not sound like all mankind will be saved.

Romans 2:12
(12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;​

"[those who] have sinned without law shall also perish without law" doesn't sound like all mankind will; be saved to me.

Romans 11:20-22
(20) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.​

Since Paul, according to you, has already said that all mankind will be saved 5:18, why is he warning the "beloved of God, called to be saints to "fear" vs.11:20 and telling them if they don't continue in God's goodness they shall also be cut off? vs 11:22?

 

[FineLinen]

Catholicism is a denial that man is a fallen sinner, born after Adam. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12. Works, laws and religion cannot change that. Man's old Adamic nature cannot be re-habilitated by works, laws and religion. Nor can man's old Adamic nature be annihilated by works, laws and religion. It can be subdued, but it cannot be annihilated.

Therefore, if fallen man is to be saved, his salvation must come to him totally and completely outside of himself. It has in the work and the person of Jesus Christ, Therefore as by the offence of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

Our God's remedy for lost sinners is total change from the inside out!

All mankind is condemned, (the good, bad & ugly).

The identical good bad & ugly can rest assured the Christ changes the all unto justification within Himself.

Polus = polus = polus!

 

[Der Alte]

...

Our God's remedy for lost sinners is total change from the inside out!
All mankind is condemned, (the good, bad & ugly).
The identical good bad & ugly can rest assured the Christ changes the all unto justification within Himself.
Polus = polus = polus!

② pert. to being relatively large in quantity or measure, much, extensive
ⓐ positive πολύς, πολλή, πολύ
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 848.​

 

[RobertPate]

Our God's remedy for lost sinners is total change from the inside out!

All mankind is condemned, (the good, bad & ugly).

The identical good bad & ugly can rest assured the Christ changes the all unto justification within Himself.

Polus = polus = polus!

God's remedy for lost sinners is a savior that will do for them that which they cannot do for themselves.

God requires two things for the salvation of lost sinners.

1. A life of perfect obedience according to God's Holy Law.

2. A perfect atonement for their and the sins of all of humanity.

Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has victoriously met both of these requirements. So that we can say with all confidence that, "We are complete in him" Colossians 2:10.

 

[Der Alte]

God's remedy for lost sinners is a savior that will do for them that which they cannot do for themselves.
God requires two things for the salvation of lost sinners.
1. A life of perfect obedience according to God's Holy Law.
2. A perfect atonement for their and the sins of all of humanity.
Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has victoriously met both of these requirements. So that we can say with all confidence that, "We are complete in him" Colossians 2:10.

And lest some folks get the wrong idea, numbers #1 and #2 must precede "We are complete in him."

 

[FineLinen]

God's remedy for lost sinners is a savior that will do for them that which they cannot do for themselves.

God requires two things for the salvation of lost sinners.

1. A life of perfect obedience according to God's Holy Law.

2. A perfect atonement for their and the sins of all of humanity.

Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has victoriously met both of these requirements. So that we can say with all confidence that, "We are complete in him" Colossians 2:10.

The Master is the Saviour of all mankind. His Name means salvation, reaching into the deep recesses of what we cannot do within ourselves. Perfect obedience to Father's holy law is not possible within ourselves!

Welcome to the One in whose faith we live.

We live by the faith of the son of God, NOT ours.

 

[Der Alte]

...

The Master is the Saviour of all mankind. His Name means salvation, reaching into the deep recesses of what we cannot do within ourselves. Perfect obedience to Father's holy law is not possible within ourselves!
Welcome to the One in whose faith we live.
We live by the faith of the son of God, NOT ours.

The never ending dusty platitudes from the linen closet. With zero supporting scripture.