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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

P1LGR1M

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I said "We in the Body of Christ cannot claim the blessings given to Abraham there. We can claim his righteousness before God by faith, but not that we will be a great nation etc."

You disagree and stated "We can claim the blessings"

Which I then ask you those questions.

Who is the one not following?

Well—you of course, lol.

How is it that we have not been blessed by the Seed?

We don't have to be a great nation individually to have received the blessing of the Gospel and for the promise given to Abrahm to be fulfilled in us. I gave the Scripture that shows that.

Go back and read it and you will see why it is that you are not following the conversation reasonably. It indicates you are ignoring what I say, so again, when you want to have a discussion and actually address what I say I'll be glad to take it back up with you.


God bless.
 
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Guojing

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Well—you of course, lol.

How is it that we have not been blessed by the Seed?

We don't have to be a great nation individually to have received the blessing of the Gospel and for the promise given to Abrahm to be fulfilled in us. I gave the Scripture that shows that.

Go back and read it and you will see why it is that you are not following the conversation reasonably. It indicates you are ignoring what I say, so again, when you want to have a discussion and actually address what I say I'll be glad to take it back up with you.


God bless.

If you misunderstood my post, it is perfectly fine to admit that. This is what I said

"We in the Body of Christ cannot claim the blessings given to Abraham there. We can claim his righteousness before God by faith, but not that we will be a great nation etc.

So in the end, do you agree with what I am saying here? What exactly are you disagreeing with?
 
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P1LGR1M

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If you misunderstood my post, it is perfectly fine to admit that. This is what I said



So in the end, do you agree with what I am saying here? What exactly are you disagreeing with?

Here is what I disagreed with:

You will be a great nation?
You will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky?

How many kids you have now?

Now you try to back-peddle and say:

"We in the Body of Christ cannot claim the blessings given to Abraham there. We can claim his righteousness before God by faith, but not that we will be a great nation etc.


Here is the statement that generates the question you ask:


We can claim the blessings:


Genesis 12:1-3
King James Version

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.



The blessing is The Seed, and it is The Seed that blesses all nations of the earth.

You say:

You will be a great nation?
You will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky?

How many kids you have now?

Are you ready to say that we receive the blessing that Abraham was promised in the veiled Gospel he received?

That is the heart of the matter after all.

There is One Gospel, but we have to distinguish between the Gospel when it is veiled (still a Mystery) and when it is not.

So do you agree with what I said here...

We can claim the blessings:


Genesis 12:1-3
King James Version

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


The blessing is The Seed, and it is The Seed that blesses all nations of the earth.


...or not?

Shall I further show the context of the discussion to show you are not following it by posting...

P1LGR1M said: ↑

Is there a "difference" between these two accounts of the Gospel:


Genesis 12:1-3
King James Version

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Galatians 3:26-29
King James Version

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do they say the same thing?

Is there a difference?


God bless.


...? To which you replied...


They are not.

We in the Body of Christ cannot claim the blessings given to Abraham there. We can claim his righteousness before God by faith, but not that we will be a great nation etc.


Now you agree that we can in fact claim that blessing, because it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ is the Seed?

Not Abraham's physical descendants?

You will be a great nation?
You will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky?

How many kids you have now?


And for the record, I have no children, but, I do have a mischievous yellow Lab and have helped (along with my wife) to raise my brother's kids.

Does that count?

And, if anyone has been saved through my efforts as a minister of the New Covenant can I consider them my children begotten of the Gospel?


God bless.
 
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Guojing

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So do you agree with what I said here...

We can claim the blessings:

Genesis 12:1-3
King James Version

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

So when you said you can claim the blessings (plural), and then you went ahead to state Genesis 12:2 "I will make of thee a great nation", which is one of those blessings,

do you actually mean what you are saying?
 
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P1LGR1M

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So when you said you can claim the blessings (plural), and then you went ahead to state Genesis 12:2 "I will make of thee a great nation", which is one of those blessings,

do you actually mean what you are saying?

You don't think the Kingdom of Priests is a great nation?


Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Were the seven churches Jew and Gentile?

Where do they come from?


God bless.
 
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Guojing

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You don't think the Kingdom of Priests is a great nation?


Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Were the seven churches Jew and Gentile?

Where do they come from?


God bless.

Oh, so that is what you meant by claiming the blessing that "I will be a great nation".

So when you claim another of Abraham's blessing "I will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky", what you actually meant by claiming was, "Aren't I one of those stars that was promised to Abraham"?

Thanks for clarifying.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Oh, so that is what you meant by claiming the blessing that "I will be a great nation".

So when you claim another of Abraham's blessing "I will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky", what you actually meant by claiming was, "Aren't I one of those stars that was promised to Abraham"?

Thanks for clarifying.

No, Guojing, that isn't what I meant, lol.

What I mean was what I said: the Gospel was veiled to men in all Ages before this one, and when we see the Gospel in the Old Testament it is still the same Gospel with the same promises and the same eventual outcome.

For example, we have been eternally redeemed but we still await the redemption of our bodies. That is an element of Eternal Redemption that has not yet been fulfilled.

So too, the Old Testament Saints were "saved" because they were temporally justified during their lifetimes, but they had not yet been eternally redeemed. They died awaiting the promises of God (i.e., the forgiveness of sins in an eternal context as contrasted with remission of sins through vicarious death of animals).

The One Fold will be "as the stars" in number and glory:


Daniel 12:1-3
King James Version

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.



Satan's head will be crushed (Genesis 3:15).

The point is that Abraham could not understand the One Gospel as we can. We understand the Seed was singular, despite the fact Abraham viewed it as a physical son through whom many more would be born.


God bless.
 
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Guojing

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No, Guojing, that isn't what I meant, lol.

What I mean was what I said: the Gospel was veiled to men in all Ages before this one, and when we see the Gospel in the Old Testament it is still the same Gospel with the same promises and the same eventual outcome.

For example, we have been eternally redeemed but we still await the redemption of our bodies. That is an element of Eternal Redemption that has not yet been fulfilled.

So too, the Old Testament Saints were "saved" because they were temporally justified during their lifetimes, but they had not yet been eternally redeemed. They died awaiting the promises of God (i.e., the forgiveness of sins in an eternal context as contrasted with remission of sins through vicarious death of animals).

The One Fold will be "as the stars" in number and glory:


Daniel 12:1-3
King James Version

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.



Satan's head will be crushed (Genesis 3:15).

The point is that Abraham could not understand the One Gospel as we can. We understand the Seed was singular, despite the fact Abraham viewed it as a physical son through whom many more would be born.


God bless.

You said no but there is nothing in your reply that even touching on the blessing, "I will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky".

So can you claim that, or not?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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You said no but there is nothing in your reply that even touching on the blessing, "I will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky".

So can you claim that, or not?
Are you denying there was a veil with the gospel ?
 
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P1LGR1M

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You said no but there is nothing in your reply that even touching on the blessing, "I will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky".

So can you claim that, or not?

I have already answered the question:


No, Guojing, that isn't what I meant, lol.

What I mean was what I said: the Gospel was veiled to men in all Ages before this one, and when we see the Gospel in the Old Testament it is still the same Gospel with the same promises and the same eventual outcome.

For example, we have been eternally redeemed but we still await the redemption of our bodies. That is an element of Eternal Redemption that has not yet been fulfilled.

So too, the Old Testament Saints were "saved" because they were temporally justified during their lifetimes, but they had not yet been eternally redeemed. They died awaiting the promises of God (i.e., the forgiveness of sins in an eternal context as contrasted with remission of sins through vicarious death of animals).

The One Fold will be "as the stars" in number and glory:


Daniel 12:1-3
King James Version

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.



Satan's head will be crushed (Genesis 3:15).

The point is that Abraham could not understand the One Gospel as we can. We understand the Seed was singular, despite the fact Abraham viewed it as a physical son through whom many more would be born.


God bless.

Here it is without the BBcode:


No, Guojing, that isn't what I meant, lol.

What I mean was what I said: the Gospel was veiled to men in all Ages before this one, and when we see the Gospel in the Old Testament it is still the same Gospel with the same promises and the same eventual outcome.

For example, we have been eternally redeemed but we still await the redemption of our bodies. That is an element of Eternal Redemption that has not yet been fulfilled.

So too, the Old Testament Saints were "saved" because they were temporally justified during their lifetimes, but they had not yet been eternally redeemed. They died awaiting the promises of God (i.e., the forgiveness of sins in an eternal context as contrasted with remission of sins through vicarious death of animals).

The One Fold will be "as the stars" in number and glory:


Daniel 12:1-3
King James Version

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.



Satan's head will be crushed (Genesis 3:15).

The point is that Abraham could not understand the One Gospel as we can. We understand the Seed was singular, despite the fact Abraham viewed it as a physical son through whom many more would be born.


God bless.
 
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philadelphos

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Diversity and differences are to be celebrated as many organs in the collective body of Christ. But this thread is spiralling into schism. The recent pages is tit for tat ad nauseam. I see gross misunderstanding between the 'continuationists' vs 'cessationists', the 'dispensationalists' vs 'covenantalists'.

"There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. ... That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. ... Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." (1 Cor 12)

The excellent way Paul refers to (IMO), is perhaps this:

There's an odd expression in Isaiah 9:6 amidst descriptions/titles of the Messiah, "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". The Greek LXX translation of the Hebrew for some reason mentions "peace" twice. Mid-sentence there's this expression: "bring/to lead/guide/direct peace" or "I will bring peace/quiet/rest" (ἄξω εἰρήνην, akso eirenen). If the LXX is accurate Christ would then also be, at least by inference, "Peace/quiet/rest Bringer". Which when cross referenced to Matthew 11:28-29 makes a lot of sense: "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest... rest unto your souls".

Δεῦτε πρός με πάντες οἱ κοπιῶντες καὶ πεφορτισμένοι κἀγὼ ἀναπαύσω (anapauso) ὑμᾶς
ἄρατε τὸν ζυγόν μου ἐφ᾽ ὑμᾶς καὶ μάθετε ἀπ᾽ ἐμοῦ ὅτι πρᾷός εἰμι καὶ ταπεινὸς τῇ καρδίᾳ καὶ εὑρήσετε ἀνάπαυσιν (anapausin) ταῖς ψυχαῖς ὑμῶν·

"Rest" anapauo is written twice implying a double or complete rest: for body and soul; beginning and end. Relating to resurrection of the dead. Hence 1 Thes 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord."

Regarding the OP topic of "love" in Calvin's Calvinism and 'Calvinism' at large, it is there, documented, if not by Calvin, then by someone within the school of Calvinism. The Westminster Assembly had 121 divines all with a life outside of the WCF committee with much to say, do, and write. e.g. The Savoy Declaration 1658 is choc a bloc, or see John Owen on the Love of God.

The early Calvinists at the Reformation were more 'puritanical' and political, almost like asylum seekers or holocaust survivors nowadays: Picture 2 million Hugenots fleeing St Barts Massacre in France to make a new life in rural backwater Switzerland (before Swiss watch craftsmanship etc). Back then 'love' was 'survival', waking up alive, children all alive in their beds without fevers, no violent catholic mob outside the house. So in that respect it's fully understandable how that generation was oblivious to the gushy 'God is love' cultic message we see mass-marketed to evangelicals.

grace and peace
 
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Guojing

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Are you denying there was a veil with the gospel ?

Have you been following the discussion at all?

I am asking him whether this specific Abraham's blessing "I will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky", can be claimed by anyone of us now.

The answer is either yes or no.
 
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Mark Quayle

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There's an odd expression in Isaiah 9:6 amidst descriptions/titles of the Messiah, "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". The Greek LXX translation of the Hebrew for some reason mentions "peace" twice. Mid-sentence there's this expression: "bring/to lead/guide/direct peace" or "I will bring peace/quiet/rest" (ἄξω εἰρήνην, akso eirenen). If the LXX is accurate Christ would then also be, at least by inference, "Peace/quiet/rest Bringer". Which when cross referenced to Matthew 11:28-29 makes a lot of sense: "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest... rest unto your souls".
Would there be any sense in considering this peace of which the Lord speaks here, to be that of Romans 5:1 (the peace we have with God through Christ)? Or is there any reason to say it cannot be? I like the thought that in the end, they are one and the same.
 
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philadelphos

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Would there be any sense in considering this peace of which the Lord speaks here, to be that of Romans 5:1 (the peace we have with God through Christ)? Or is there any reason to say it cannot be? I like the thought that in the end, they are one and the same.

"The peace we have with God" in 'soul and body'.

Firstly, Romans is Pauline theology on the intricacies of justification by faith: A leads to B, B to C, C to D, etc etc. The mechanics of 'faith'. Similar to the Mosaic/judaic theology that is cyclical according to the calendar (moedim), where events repeat and repeat for a lifetime. Each calendar event is a checkpoint for self, family, and nation. e.g. annual Rosh Hashanah = A Day of Judgment and a celebration of when God created the world.

Christ's assertion then that there will be a 'resurrection' was foreign to the theologians back then. Certain aspects of the Gospel was 'veiled' as others have said. Zoroastrianism and Eastern religions however already had this concept, as early as when Daniel was in Babylon, 605 BC. Which is perhaps how God paved the way for the Gospel to be acceptable to Gentile/Goyim cultures.

Secondly, prophecies in Isaiah 9, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc, are often allegorical, poetic, cryptic, more 'magical' or supernatural in the way Daniel interpreted dreams, and less mechanical/logical/rational as seen in Greek/Roman/Western thought. The concepts are simple enough for a child yet unthinkably grand for adults. e.g. the height of the Persian or Chinese Empire is overwhelmingly enormous. When Esther was imported from the Persian Achaemenid Empire, the Persians ate on new gold/silver plates every day, billions in tax revenue from almost every nation in the known world. Their richness was intoxicating, materially and culturally.

e.g. The part about "Zebulun and Naphtali ... The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined." These lost tribes were swallowed by Syria/Persia and disappeared somewhere into the Persian Empire and Central Asia, perhaps India, and China. And it's been discovered that many common 'Chinese' family names are in fact Hebrew names, translated from Hebrew meanings. To think that billions in China/India/Central Asia and perhaps the far far east has a genealogy back to Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, is mind-boggling. Only God knows.

So IMO, the above prophecy refers to the human condition, i.e the doctrine of depravity, why life is hard, why work is exhausting and futile, "meaningless meaningless", why people move and migrate, which contrasts the sabbatical promise, and the Adamic and Edenic covenant pre-exile. But you see, mankind is 'the prodigal son' who'd opted to leave Father's house, to be exploited by outsiders. 'Rest' is returning (repenting) to the Father's kingdom, where all is in order and provided for, by God. Hence, "Call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." (Mt 23:9) as we are born not to serve parents, employers, kings, etc, but ultimately to "serve God" our true father.

"Rest" is captured in the 'pilgrim' imagery, 'journeying from one place to a final destination or 'resting place'. To 'pack light' and turn out backs on our families and cities, to pursue Christ. At resurrection it will be literal, not metaphorical.

The Calvinist view says that 'regeneration' precedes faith, except:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (παλιγγενεσία palingenesía) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." (Mt 19:28-29) --- For Christ

“There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (Mk 10:29-30) — For Christ and Gospel

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting." (Lk 18:29-30) --- For Kingdom

'Rest in Christ' is 3-fold, triply fortuitous: Christ + Gospel + Kingdom. Calvinism and many Calvinists I know seem oblivious to this. Calvinism (at least Scottish branches of Calvinism) are very much pro-capitalism and gain, personal achievement, self-glory, etc.

But Christ is clear that: "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." (Mt 16:25)

About peace: 'Peace' (salem שָׁלֵם) is "the place of which Melchizedek was king" (See Gesenius for details, H8004 - šālēm - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)). It is both physical and spiritual, for 'body and soul'.

When Jerusalem is restored the world will be restored, without the curse of 'thorns and thistles', death, disease, mutation, shortage, famine, war, etc.--If 'faith' is understood quantitatively, e.g. "great is thy faith", in relation to 'reward in heaven', then it seems to be a economical system: A 'faith economy'. A supernatural way of life.

"If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." (Mt 17:20) Also, "If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you." (Lk 17:6)

Blessings to all
 
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Mark Quayle

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"The peace we have with God" in 'soul and body'.

Firstly, Romans is Pauline theology on the intricacies of justification by faith: A leads to B, B to C, C to D, etc etc. The mechanics of 'faith'. Similar to the Mosaic/judaic theology that is cyclical according to the calendar (moedim), where events repeat and repeat for a lifetime. Each calendar event is a checkpoint for self, family, and nation. e.g. annual Rosh Hashanah = A Day of Judgment and a celebration of when God created the world.

Christ's assertion then that there will be a 'resurrection' was foreign to the theologians back then. Certain aspects of the Gospel was 'veiled' as others have said. Zoroastrianism and Eastern religions however already had this concept, as early as when Daniel was in Babylon, 605 BC. Which is perhaps how God paved the way for the Gospel to be acceptable to Gentile/Goyim cultures.

Secondly, prophecies in Isaiah 9, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc, are often allegorical, poetic, cryptic, more 'magical' or supernatural in the way Daniel interpreted dreams, and less mechanical/logical/rational as seen in Greek/Roman/Western thought. The concepts are simple enough for a child yet unthinkably grand for adults. e.g. the height of the Persian or Chinese Empire is overwhelmingly enormous. When Esther was imported from the Persian Achaemenid Empire, the Persians ate on new gold/silver plates every day, billions in tax revenue from almost every nation in the known world. Their richness was intoxicating, materially and culturally.

e.g. The part about "Zebulun and Naphtali ... The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined." These lost tribes were swallowed by Syria/Persia and disappeared somewhere into the Persian Empire and Central Asia, perhaps India, and China. And it's been discovered that many common 'Chinese' family names are in fact Hebrew names, translated from Hebrew meanings. To think that billions in China/India/Central Asia and perhaps the far far east has a genealogy back to Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, is mind-boggling. Only God knows.

So IMO, the above prophecy refers to the human condition, i.e the doctrine of depravity, why life is hard, why work is exhausting and futile, "meaningless meaningless", why people move and migrate, which contrasts the sabbatical promise, and the Adamic and Edenic covenant pre-exile. But you see, mankind is 'the prodigal son' who'd opted to leave Father's house, to be exploited by outsiders. 'Rest' is returning (repenting) to the Father's kingdom, where all is in order and provided for, by God. Hence, "Call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." (Mt 23:9) as we are born not to serve parents, employers, kings, etc, but ultimately to "serve God" our true father.

"Rest" is captured in the 'pilgrim' imagery, 'journeying from one place to a final destination or 'resting place'. To 'pack light' and turn out backs on our families and cities, to pursue Christ. At resurrection it will be literal, not metaphorical.

The Calvinist view says that 'regeneration' precedes faith, except:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (παλιγγενεσία palingenesía) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." (Mt 19:28-29) --- For Christ

“There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (Mk 10:29-30) — For Christ and Gospel

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting." (Lk 18:29-30) --- For Kingdom

'Rest in Christ' is 3-fold, triply fortuitous: Christ + Gospel + Kingdom. Calvinism and many Calvinists I know seem oblivious to this. Calvinism (at least Scottish branches of Calvinism) are very much pro-capitalism and gain, personal achievement, self-glory, etc.

But Christ is clear that: "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." (Mt 16:25)

About peace: 'Peace' (salem שָׁלֵם) is "the place of which Melchizedek was king" (See Gesenius for details, H8004 - šālēm - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)). It is both physical and spiritual, for 'body and soul'.

When Jerusalem is restored the world will be restored, without the curse of 'thorns and thistles', death, disease, mutation, shortage, famine, war, etc.--If 'faith' is understood quantitatively, e.g. "great is thy faith", in relation to 'reward in heaven', then it seems to be a economical system: A 'faith economy'. A supernatural way of life.

"If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." (Mt 17:20) Also, "If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you." (Lk 17:6)

Blessings to all
I think I detect a bit of animosity toward Calvinism, in your criticism of Calvinists. Your criticism of Calvinists who are "very much pro-capitalism and gain, personal achievement, self-glory, etc." could easily be applied to members of any denomination. Why even bring up Calvinism in your post? ( ;) but then, I would start off my response with this!)

Your post makes me think of several things, probably the most constant and strongest being that peace with God is the root of all peace, and without it, there is no permanent peace, which puts a use into the idea of 'rest', in that Heaven is precisely our Home. We are created FOR THAT. We are even now, but more obviously then, God's Place of Residence. THAT is what God created, and we are not even completed real beings until then, when we see him as he is.
 
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I think I detect a bit of animosity toward Calvinism, in your criticism of Calvinists. Your criticism of Calvinists who are "very much pro-capitalism and gain, personal achievement, self-glory, etc." could easily be applied to members of any denomination. Why even both bringing up Calvinism in your post? ( ;) but then, I would start off my response with this!)

Your post makes me think of several things, probably the most constant and strongest being that peace with God is the root of all peace, and without it, there is no permanent peace, which puts a use into the idea of 'rest', in that Heaven is precisely our Home. We are created FOR THAT. We are even now, but more obviously then, God's Place of Residence. THAT is what God created, and we are not even completed real beings until then, when we see him as he is.
Yes not until the resurrection of the saints when we have our new immortal, glorified and incorruptible bodies :)
 
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philadelphos

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I think I detect a bit of animosity toward Calvinism, in your criticism of Calvinists. Your criticism of Calvinists who are "very much pro-capitalism and gain, personal achievement, self-glory, etc." could easily be applied to members of any denomination. Why even both bringing up Calvinism in your post? ( ;) but then, I would start off my response with this!)

Your post makes me think of several things, probably the most constant and strongest being that peace with God is the root of all peace, and without it, there is no permanent peace, which puts a use into the idea of 'rest', in that Heaven is precisely our Home. We are created FOR THAT. We are even now, but more obviously then, God's Place of Residence. THAT is what God created, and we are not even completed real beings until then, when we see him as he is.

Yes not until the resurrection of the saints when we have our new immortal, glorified and incorruptible bodies :)

Protestantism vs (Roman) Catholicism is akin to the rivalry between Hillel and Shammai, the 2 mainline schools of pharisaism in Christ's time. Both are temporal ideologies, for here and now, not so much preparation for the future kingdom.

About capitalism: Look up "calvinism and capitalism". See Max Weber, Kemper Fullerton, etc. Calvinism was invented in Knox's Scotland, propagated in the Netherlands where corporatism and the stock exchange was invented. Calvinism and the 'Protestant work ethic' is at the heart of capitalist philosophy/ideology. Before that shop keepers were practically apostates. Think the 'Merchant of Venice': lending at interest is 'usury', a sin and violation of the latter commandments namely the 10th. Likewise for monetary policy and corporate profiteering. The modern notion of a 'global economy' is euphemism for pillaging minority kingdoms. Hence perpetual war, campaign after campaign. For one to have have value another must be de-valued. Two thieves crucified Calvary. Calvinism and Capitalism on JSTOR

The Wealth of Nations is written by Adam Smith the father of capitalism and modern economics, a Scottish Presbyterian who signed the WCF in Glasgow under Oath of Faith. The notion of an "invisible hand" in the market, shadow government, etc, is based on the "hand of God". Hence 'market regulation' etc.

Eastern theology is the polar opposite, having room for monasticism, fasting, asceticism, renouncing the world, etc. Ofc taken to extremes in patristics, the desert fathers, etc, but the principle is very much captured by Christ in the Wilderness, John the Baptist in the Wilderness, the Nation of Israel in the Wilderness, Esther leaving her home (Persia), Ruth leaving her home (Moab), etc etc, as Abram left Ur/Chaldea/Babylonian civilisation.

"He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.” (Lk 3:11)

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (Mt 19:21)

grace and peace
 
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John Mullally

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Protestantism vs (Roman) Catholicism is akin to the rivalry between Hillel and Shammai, the 2 mainline schools of pharisaism in Christ's time. Both are temporal ideologies, for here and now, not so much preparation for the future kingdom.

About capitalism: Look up "calvinism and capitalism". See Max Weber, Kemper Fullerton, etc. Calvinism was invented in Knox's Scotland, propagated in the Netherlands where corporatism and the stock exchange was invented. Calvinism and the 'Protestant work ethic' is at the heart of capitalist philosophy/ideology. Before that shop keepers were practically apostates. Think the 'Merchant of Venice': lending at interest is 'usury', a sin and violation of the latter commandments namely the 10th. Likewise for monetary policy and corporate profiteering. The modern notion of a 'global economy' is euphemism for pillaging minority kingdoms. Hence perpetual war, campaign after campaign. For one to have have value another must be de-valued. Two thieves crucified Calvary. Calvinism and Capitalism on JSTOR

The Wealth of Nations is written by Adam Smith the father of capitalism and modern economics, a Scottish Presbyterian who signed the WCF in Glasgow under Oath of Faith. The notion of an "invisible hand" in the market, shadow government, etc, is based on the "hand of God". Hence 'market regulation' etc.

Eastern theology is the polar opposite, having room for monasticism, fasting, asceticism, renouncing the world, etc. Ofc taken to extremes in patristics, the desert fathers, etc, but the principle is very much captured by Christ in the Wilderness, John the Baptist in the Wilderness, the Nation of Israel in the Wilderness, Esther leaving her home (Persia), Ruth leaving her home (Moab), etc etc, as Abram left Ur/Chaldea/Babylonian civilisation.

"He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.” (Lk 3:11)

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (Mt 19:21)

grace and peace
On the other hand, the rise of the scientific method corresponded with the rise of Protestantism. Highly promimet Protestant mathematicians Newton and Leibniz wrote much on Theology - that is by no mistake.

Tragically scientist Servetus, who was irst European to describe the function of pulmonary circulation, was persecuted by both RC and Calvin - resulting in being torched. He, like the anabaptists, paid for Christ's namesake (Matthew 24:9).
 
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On the other hand, the rise of the scientific method corresponded with the rise of Protestantism. Highly promimet Protestant mathematicians Newton and Leibniz wrote much on Theology - that is by no mistake.

Tragically scientist Servetus, who was irst European to describe the function of pulmonary circulation, was persecuted by both RC and Calvin - resulting in being torched. He, like the anabaptists, paid for Christ's namesake (Matthew 24:9).
I've recently been studying the deep connections between the RCC Catholic Augustine and Calvin since he quoted him over 400 times in his institutes. Most of his teachings are from augustine. Also calvin had many catholic beliefs including salvation at infant baptism.
 
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Daniel Peres

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Love is one of the primary and essential attributes which reflect the nature and character of God. The word Theology refers to the study of God, and God is Triune, a Trinity- Tri-Unity. All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love and because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God's love is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature.

God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John 4 tells us.

We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.

God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.

In the monumental work of Calvin’s Institutes , it is interesting for a man with such an attention to detail when it comes to dogma and Scripture that he left out any mention of Gods primary attribute that God is love (1 John 4:8;16) and any biblical reference to those two verses in 1 John regarding God is love. His institutes contain thousands of bible references and over 1500 pages in his Institutes.

Another interesting fact is that in the Shorter Westminster Catechism of Faith, question 4 “What is God “? We read the following regarding Gods attributes and notice what is left out.

“God is Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. “

Notice like in Calvin’s Institute’s, the WCF leaves out Gods primary attribute that He is love.

Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. There was no Sovereignty for there was no creation to be Sovereign over. Why do you ask about those attributes and that they were not necessary? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.

The true nature of Gods love is at the heart of the gospel message: God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in His shall not perish but have everlasting life, John 3:16.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17

The problem with Calvin is that he was an arrogant nut. If Calvinists ever bothered to study the authentic Calvinism they would not be pleased at all. The man believed he was a prophet sent by God. When he he said he believed in Sola Scriptura he meant it was Sola Scriptura for him, and every body had to obey his Sola Scriptura interpretations. He also taught that the laity and local pastors were too ignorant to be trusted to interpret scripture. There you go. There are three things wrong with Calvinism that you probably don’t like either.
 
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