What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Mark Quayle]

I've recently been studying the deep connections between the RCC Catholic Augustine and Calvin since he quoted him over 400 times in his institutes. Most of his teachings are from augustine. Also calvin had many catholic beliefs including salvation at infant baptism.

Is that a problem?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Is that a problem?

Well of course its a problem he was much more catholic than protestant in his teachings. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Calvinism is evil, and should be barred from teaching to any body of believers.

As much as I don't like Calvinism, it is Biblically supportable. I have tried arguing against it, but the more I tried, the more I had to accept it as a respectable theological position.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

As much as I don't like Calvinism, it is Biblically supportable. I have tried arguing against it, but the more I tried, the more I had to accept it as a respectable theological position.

I was a calvinist for over 40 years. Many things taught under calvinism are not true and there are some humanly sound arguments that can be made. Tulip stands of falls on every point. If one fails it all crumbles. They are built upon each other and several Calvinist theologians such as Spurgeon and Boettner will admit this is true.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well of course its a problem he was much more catholic than protestant in his teachings. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

So Calvinism is Calvin and Calvin is Roman Catholic at the core, which means that Calvinism is Roman Catholic in nature? Where in the 5 points, (just for starters), do you find any false Roman Catholic doctrine?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The problem with Calvin is that he was an arrogant nut. If Calvinists ever bothered to study the authentic Calvinism they would not be pleased at all. The man believed he was a prophet sent by God. When he he said he believed in Sola Scriptura he meant it was Sola Scriptura for him, and every body had to obey his Sola Scriptura interpretations. He also taught that the laity and local pastors were too ignorant to be trusted to interpret scripture. There you go. There are three things wrong with Calvinism that you probably don’t like either.

You may be surprised then, to realize that Calvin is not Calvinism, though you said as much right there! What you take to be wrong with Calvin does not translate to your, "There you go. There are three things wrong with Calvinism..."

 

[Mark Quayle]

I was a calvinist for over 40 years. Many things taught under calvinism are not true and there are some humanly sound arguments that can be made. Tulip stands of falls on every point. If one fails it all crumbles. They are built upon each other and several Calvinist theologians such as Spurgeon and Boettner will admit this is true.

hope this helps !!!

But if they all are true, they don't crumble. Every paper I have read attempting to disassemble TULIP has, IMHO, failed.

But bear in mind, in this discussion, that Calvinism is more a theological point of view, than a comprehensive arrangement of the works of God. (It, for example, speaks of causal sequence rather than time sequence. It does not claim one eschatology over another. It does not deal with how Noah got all the animals on the ark. It doesn't even claim a literal, nor a symbolic, Genesis 1.)

Everyone that I have heard attempt to defeat the tenets of Calvinism have either arrayed themselves against a supposed logical implication of Calvinism, a caricature of Calvinism, or an otherwise false claim concerning Calvinism, or against Calvin himself as though he was Calvinism, as you did here, claiming that he was tainted by other systems such as RCC doctrine, (or, of course, there are those who don't even hold to a cohesive point of view, sometimes even incoherent, sometimes speaking as though in a trance, or believing themselves to be something like the mouth of God (—it is curious how Calvinism brings these out! People don't like God being in charge. But yes, that happens against Christian orthodoxy in general, even by those, or maybe most usually by those, who claim to be Christians!))

 

[Daniel Peres]

As much as I don't like Calvinism, it is Biblically supportable. I have tried arguing against it, but the more I tried, the more I had to accept it as a respectable theological position.

How is Calvin's belief that his interpretations were the best because he was a prophet sent by God supported by the Bible. What Christian actually believes that after Jesus' death and resurrection, God sent additional Prophets like Calvin. I have never even heard of a Calvinist that believes this today.

 

[QvQ]

ow is Calvin's belief that his interpretations were the best because he was a prophet sent by God supported by the Bible. What Christian actually believes that after Jesus' death and resurrection, God sent additional Prophets like Calvin. I have never even heard of a Calvinist that believes this today.

I thought Calvin believed that "gifts" such a "prophesy" ended with the Apostles.

All denominations believe their particular interpretation of the Scripture is the only correct interpretation.
That is not basis for the argument that Calvin, being a spokesman of a particular theological flavor, is therefore claiming to be a prophet, else the Pope and Billy Graham could be tarred with the same brush.

I don't see any proof that Calvin claimed to be a prophet. He claimed to have special insight based on study and analysis but he did not claim to speak new words or new revelations of God (prophesy).

 

[Daniel Peres]

I recently purchased the doctoral thesis of Dr. David Anders which is where I get my information about Calvin from. He has a phd in Reformation History. He is a former Calvinist/ Presbyterian who became a Catholic, and is currently the host of a Catholic television show by the name of Called to Communion. He claims that Calvin made him Catholic as a result of his research for his doctoral dissertation on John Calvin. Nearly all of his sources were from Calvin himself.

 

[QvQ]

Nearly all of his sources were from Calvin himself.

I cannot find a source where Calvin claimed he was a prophet. In the estimation of many Catholics, Calvin may have acted as if he thought he was an anointed agent of God however Calvin did not go beyond the Bible and accepted theological tradition.
Calvin merely interpreted the Bible and theological traditions in his own way and defended that view vigorously at times.
It is in juxtaposition, for instance, to Joseph Smith who claimed to have a new or additional gospel revealed to him by an angel of God.
There is a huge difference between a theologian and a prophet.
Dr. David Anders or any person claiming Calvin acted or spoke as if he thought he were specially anointed is not evidence that Calvin himself believed that.
I don't see any source that supports the claim that Calvin either believed himself to be or held himself out as a "prophet" within the scholarly definition of that word.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

How is Calvin's belief that his interpretations were the best because he was a prophet sent by God supported by the Bible. What Christian actually believes that after Jesus' death and resurrection, God sent additional Prophets like Calvin. I have never even heard of a Calvinist that believes this today.

Because that is not what Cavinism teaches.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I recently purchased the doctoral thesis of Dr. David Anders which is where I get my information about Calvin from. He has a phd in Reformation History. He is a former Calvinist/ Presbyterian who became a Catholic, and is currently the host of a Catholic television show by the name of Called to Communion. He claims that Calvin made him Catholic as a result of his research for his doctoral dissertation on John Calvin. Nearly all of his sources were from Calvin himself.

Have you read The Institutes by John Calvin? Or how about a systematic theology book?

 

[Daniel Peres]

Have you read The Institutes by John Calvin? Or how about a systematic theology book?

I have not read his systematic theology books. But if I remember correctly, the Calvin beliefs I am talking about are found in the Institutes. I am too tired tonight, but I promise to give the sources for all of my claims tomorrow, so be on the lookout. The doctoral dissertation I am reading is about 700 pages long with tons of citations from Calvin's own writings.

 

[Mark Quayle]

How is Calvin's belief that his interpretations were the best because he was a prophet sent by God supported by the Bible. What Christian actually believes that after Jesus' death and resurrection, God sent additional Prophets like Calvin. I have never even heard of a Calvinist that believes this today.

Is your problem with Calvinism, or with Calvin?

 

[rturner76]

What's wrong with Calvinism? The lack of free will stands out the most to me.

Calvin was a brilliant lawyer and knew how to make a clear argument. However, I think he went astray on a couple of issues.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I have not read his systematic theology books. But if I remember correctly, the Calvin beliefs I am talking about are found in the Institutes. I am too tired tonight, but I promise to give the sources for all of my claims tomorrow, so be on the lookout. The doctoral dissertation I am reading is about 700 pages long with tons of citations from Calvin's own writings.

It doesn't have to be a systematic theology book from Calvin. Just any book on systematic theology.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Is your problem with Calvinism, or with Calvin?

both

but I love calvinists.

 

[John Mullally]

both

but I love calvinists.

And of course, God loves all Calvinists per 1 Timothy 2:4.

 

[Der Alte]

And of course, God loves all Calvinists per 1 Timothy 2:4.

Timothy is good, real good but have you read the end of the book?

Revelation 22:11-13
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

Ten more verses then the end. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: No more salvation.