What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[philadelphos]

The plain and simple truth is that God exists. God is as obvious as gravity.

I repeat: "Insufficient, for or against". I merely demonstrate that your line of reasoning is equivalent to that of an atheist, kantian, hegellian, etc. In fact, gnostics use the same reasoning, and literally exchange 'truth for a lie' by replacing the characters of the Bible.

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." (Jas 2:19)

Whereas 'belief in Christ' is not a mere nominal claim ('God exists therefore...'), it is experiential and living/spiritual as well as physical/intellectual. It remains true even if we have no words for it. Hence Paul is able to reason with Greeks in a public forum. Moses could demonstrate 10 plagues publicly to the Egyptians. Not to say that performing '10 plagues' is a mandatory pre-requisite to faith, but true faith must have true 'works' in some way shape or form, according to promises/blessings/curses written in Scripture. Merely saying 'God exist therefore XYZ' or 'ofc God exists therefore XYZ' is corruptible/deceptive/duplicitous and is the reasoning of 'the natural man'; it can be 'studied' by training, and is not 'supernatural' like the experience of Abraham and the birth of Isaac etc. You see?

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14)

In Geneva, Calvin hung bodies of anabaptists from cages outside of St. Pierre Cathedral. How can a congregation tolerate that? Would that be acceptable at your place of worship? Many components of Calvinism and Calvinist reasoning is ofc antiquated and superstitious.

 

[misput]

I am a tad confused so maybe it is easy for one of the other posters to address this question.
It is generally believed that man is initially saved by faith alone. Man is justified and saved by the Grace of God, not by works.
However, it seems to be argued that to retain salvation, there must be works.
In other words, a man cannot earn salvation through works but after salvation a man must earn his continued salvation through works.
Am I reading the other posters correctly? Are works necessary After salvation when works are not enough to save a man Before salvation?

Works do not save you, they are a sign you have a true saving faith. If you need proof of this, just look back at your works, they are never truly perfect if you are honest with yourself. James says faith is made perfect by works not that works are perfect.

Just a side note: James talks about the royal law and the law of liberty. Do you or others see a difference? If so please explain.

 

[rwb]

Given the title of this thread: I found an interesting excerpt from a former-Calvinist on his problem with its determinism (from page 2 of the pdf).
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/RollCall/Calvinism_Unmasked_1st_5_chapters_of_.pdf

At this time of my life, this deterministic theology had a detrimental influence on my attitudes about prayer. If God knew everything, and I believed He did; and if God predestinated everything based on His foreknowledge, and I believed He did that too; then, everything that I prayed was foreknown and predestined. If I didn’t pray, that also was predestined; then, it became easy to feel, why should I pray? Unfortunately, I ended up having an abysmal prayer life. The only reason I prayed, I determined in my mind, was because God commanded it in His word. I realized that Christ and Paul were zealous in prayer, however, there was no zest in my prayers. Therefore, I recognized that something was seriously wrong with my Christian life. I knew this was wrong but didn’t know what to do about it.​

This in my opinion lacks understanding of the purpose for prayer. Prayer was given for man. It is through thoughtful prayer that man realizes his/her need for God. Prayer immediately takes my mind to God, and off my circumstances. Because I realize that I cannot change anything. We shouldn't pray hoping God will hear and answer our prayers but pray instead knowing God hears and answers according to His will.

 

[QvQ]

I think QvQ’s old neighbor at the end was just trying to exit conversations with him. My experience when discussing Theological issues is that after too many fruitless conversations, I will want to exit. And if I believe the other person is not acting in good faith, what better technique for exoting then to pound on a scripturally well-supported doctrine you know will offend the other guy.

Never once did I knock on his door. In every instance, he came to me and engaged me in conversation.
Pounding on scripture, using the Word to offend people is perhaps an evangelical technique that some denominations may use but it is not in my script.

 

[QvQ]

All biblical references to prayer include asking from God. For example, the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6 also includes adoration, confession, thanksgiving, besides asking from God. The prayers in Ephesians 1 & 3 include adoration, thanksgiving and asking from God. Pray in Mark 11:24 is referring to asking from God.

Consider someone you love. That loved one is always on your mind, always a consideration, always.
Yes, you converse in words, sometimes asking, praising, thanking, adoring. Sometimes you are just thinking about the beloved but the beloved is always on your mind, always.
Jesus said, "Love the Lord, thy God with all thy mind..."

 

[QvQ]

Whereas 'belief in Christ' is not a mere nominal claim ('God exists therefore...'), it is experiential and living/spiritual as well as physical/intellectual. It remains true even if we have no words for it.

Agree

Merely saying 'God exist therefore XYZ' or 'ofc God exists therefore XYZ' is corruptible/deceptive/duplicitous and is the reasoning of 'the natural man'; it can be 'studied' by training, and is not 'supernatural'

Agree

While I am loathe to defend Calvin, establishing God is known as a brute fact seems far more rational than attempting to defend rationally a theological concept of God. Faith precedes reason, and rationality far more often acts as a defense attorney than an unbiased investigator. It would seem to me that before getting involved in the rationally defensible, a critical step of establishing the propriety of the methodology is never taken up.

Absolutely Agree, However:
What is the critical step of establishing the propriety of methodology?

 

[P1LGR1M]

You would agree that if there were no good works as "evidence", then that faith cannot save you.

But you still insist that it is faith "alone" that saves.

You don't consider that circular reasoning?

You really aren't bothering to read the posts.

I do not believe we are saved by faith.

We are saved by grace. THat is what you don't understand.

Just read the posts.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You will be a great nation?
You will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky?

How many kids you have now?

I'm sorry, Guojing, it seems you aren't able to follow an argument that is presented, so I am going to have to cease responding to your posts. When you can respond to an argument with a relevant sttement I will be glad to take up discussion again.


God bless.

 

[QvQ]

If "Works" is defined as:
Matthew 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."

However it is the "Light" of the Holy Spirit" not "works" as a method to retain salvation

Ephesians 2:9 not by works, lest any man should boast.
In my neighbors case, he was boasting that he had a "sign" of God's special favor, Talking in tongues, having gifts in any form from God is a blessing but a person should not be arrogant or boasting as if he earned that gift. In the neighbor's view, talking in tongues glorified the neighbor himself, not God. There is the error.

The concept here that concerns me is the "earn" by works.
Psalms 50:21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.
Psalms 50:22 Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.
Psalms 50:23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

 

[QvQ]

Removed, Double post

 

[John Mullally]

Never once did I knock on his door. In every instance, he came to me and engaged me in conversation.
Pounding on scripture, using the Word to offend people is perhaps an evangelical technique that some denominations may use but it is not in my script.

Assuming what you say is true, then your neighbor was not being neighborly or was extreme on his theology.

Obviously this is not an evangelical technique. Jesus used this technique against the religious leaders as He did not want to waste effort fighting them all the time or to put Himself under their scrutiny. Similarly, Paul started a fight between Pharisees and Sadducees in order to get out of a jam in Acts 23:7.

At times I think you are trying to misunderstand what I am saying. For example, when the man I quoted was speaking of prayer in post 5126, he was obviously talking about asking God for things. But you make the argument irrelevant by purposely misundersanding what he was talking about.

 

[John Mullally]

Respectfully, for one to be true all must be true. Our congregations can preach in 3 or more dialects of Chinese. The language itself has thousands of regional dialects. We also have various Semitic, European, and Asian language speakers. There are also many with cancer and other terminal illnesses, disabilities, etc. Never has a person who claimed to 'speak in tongues' legitimately fulfilled the requirements of the passage. They are thus frauds, sadly.

Mark 16:17-18, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

It's not 'disbelief in Scripture' but rather 'disbelief in the person'. Many charismatic claims/practices are death penalty sins.

"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. ...When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." (Deu 18:20, 22)

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul." (Deu 13:1-3)

You are straw manning my argument. There are some that think this portion of Mark was added after Mark was written - I don't. Assuming that is not the case, Jesus was not commanding believers to pick up serpents and drink poison to prove their faith. In addition, there is a large sector of Christianity that purports to speak in tongues as a private prayer language - I know that is considered as rubbish by much of the rest of Christianity - but I for one have experienced its usefulness.

 

[QvQ]

At times I think you are trying to misunderstand what I am saying.

I am following along. I believe you misunderstood my neighbor. He considered the gift of talking in tongues as glorifying himself rather than God. He could have been glorified of his wealth or his fame or any other "sign" he believed he earned from his "works. If he were a "prosperity gospel" believer, he would have been just as proud of that "$$$ Sign"

Jesus was not commanding believers to pick up serpents and drink poison to prove their faith.

Earning or proving faith by works is exactly the point. We do not prove or earn our faith or our salvation through "works" "Earn" is the key word

Psalms 23:3 He guideth me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake.

We should let our light shine to glorify God but always mention God, "God willing" "God Bless" "Thank God" always a mention of God when the Light shines.

 

[John Mullally]

I am following along. I believe you misunderstood my neighbor. He considered the gift of talking in tongues as glorifying himself rather than God. He could have been glorified of his wealth or his fame or any other "sign" he believed he earned from his "works. If he were a "prosperity gospel" believer, he would have been just as proud of that "$$$ Sign" Imagine judging a person's faith by the balance in his bank account.

All Christian denominations, I know of acknowledge occasions of speaking in tongues in the book of Acts is by the Holy Spirit. Assuming that the speaking in tongues is by the Holy Spirit, it is glorifying God.

Some in the Corinthian churches that opeated by the gifts of the Holy Spirit were rebuked by Paul. So the gifts have never been a stamp of God's total approval. And believing you have God's approval by wealth and fame is laughable - I don't know anyone who actually says that.

 

[Guojing]

I'm sorry, Guojing, it seems you aren't able to follow an argument that is presented, so I am going to have to cease responding to your posts. When you can respond to an argument with a relevant sttement I will be glad to take up discussion again.


God bless.

I said "We in the Body of Christ cannot claim the blessings given to Abraham there. We can claim his righteousness before God by faith, but not that we will be a great nation etc."

You disagree and stated "We can claim the blessings"

Which I then ask you those questions.

Who is the one not following?

 

[Guojing]

Works do not save you, they are a sign you have a true saving faith.

So if there is no works, after you are saved by faith alone, that faith is not "true saving faith", and hence you are not really saved?

You see how circular that reasoning is?

 

[Paul4JC]

Calvin was a Tyrant.

[Tit 1:6-7 NIV] An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer manages God's household, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.

 

[misput]

So if there is no works, after you are saved by faith alone, that faith is not "true saving faith", and hence you are not really saved?

You see how circular that reasoning is?

Incomplete response, sorry : (

 

[Guojing]

You really aren't bothering to read the posts.

I do not believe we are saved by faith.

We are saved by grace. THat is what you don't understand.

Just read the posts.


God bless.

You said saved by grace thru faith correct?

Unless now you are saying faith is not required, you are into universalism?

 

[John Mullally]

This in my opinion lacks understanding of the purpose for prayer. Prayer was given for man. It is through thoughtful prayer that man realizes his/her need for God. Prayer immediately takes my mind to God, and off my circumstances. Because I realize that I cannot change anything. We shouldn't pray hoping God will hear and answer our prayers but pray instead knowing God hears and answers according to His will.

Thanking God, singing to God and meditating on God are good - they just are not prayer.

All biblical instances of prayer include asking from God. Of course, if we are to approach God in prayer we should do so reverently - as modeled in the Lord's prayer. Per James 5:13-18, we know prayer can be effective (i.e. it can result in men receiving from God that which would not be received without prayer).

James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.
​

God's wiil is not being done on earth at this time. Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that is not the will of God. So when Jesus commanded his followers to pray "Your will be done on earth as it is heaven" per Matthew 6:10, he was also saying that God's will on earth equates with what is being done in heaven. Notice that "be done" is in the present tense. There is no sin, sickness, poverty, or rebellion in heaven. Therefore, God's will on earth is not being done at this time.