Creation Sabbath Origin

[Leaf473]

Subject title and opening post set the topic.

When can draw the person away to some other idea in a post 87 posts later - but that attempt does not change the topic of the thread. It is just a minor interruption in most well meaning cases. But here you are 30 posts later discussing "post 87" which apparently you agree is not the point of the title or of the OP .. ie. post #1... page 1...

And here you and I are - not discussing the OP post #1 (some more)... even after I just quoted it.

People on this forum looking at the title of threads and the OP - "suspect" this is about "Creation Sabbath" and you are a long way down the road to what might a gentile imagine that had no Bible and knew nothing about Creation or the Word of God. (So then - obviously not "this" gentile)

I don't see "How do people know that the Word of God informs us of right vs wrong" in the OP. but I do see a very explicit reference to "creation Sabbath" and its implications/meaning as we see it in the text. If you have zero interest in that sort of thing - why not start a thread title of something that does interest you?

As I said, I was responding to a question from the OP.

In exploring the subject of the origin of the Sabbath commandment, the OP brought up the origin of the murder commandment, IIRC.

So I was exploring that with him, though I haven't seen him around for a while.

If you'd like to share your thoughts on the origin of the Sabbath commandment, that would be great!

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

This is a serious problem. One should not make such profound conclusions based on eisegesis (i.e. reading INTO God's Word something that isn't there). Your conclusion is based on leaps in logic. You're jumping a huge biblical gap and forcing a square peg into around the mulberry bushel jump rope clandestine presuppositionary positations. Iow it's nonsensical and there is no warrant to impose on Romans 1 that everyone is born with an inherent knowledge that murder is evil and that we can read that into the text based on the idea that since "God's qualities being clearly seen" indicates that one of those qualities is "being Good" and that we inherit this knowledge from our parents ??? Just even typing that was giving me a headache (no disrespect ).





I don't believe you've come close to proving this point. It's merely conjecture.

What I'd say we inherited from Adam and Eve is a desire for the flesh (or a sinful/rebellious nature). How can you reject the clear biblical definitions I supplied and prefer reading into the Bible things which are not there?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Well, if you're going to say that I made huge leaps of logic, let's take it one step at a time and then maybe you can show me the leaps.

Do you agree that Romans 1 says this?
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse.

Hi Leaf473,

Assuming you are not misquoting the text then yes, I agree with what it says.

Let's see if you can likewise read the following text and agree with Paul's stated conclusion:

Romans 7:7
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”​

On what stated basis did Paul expressly acknowledge as the way to identify sin?

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Okay... back to Romans 1

Since you agree that the invisible things of God since the creation of the world are clearly seen, what are those invisible things?

I'm hoping you'll answer, of course. But in the meantime I'll give my answer as part of explaining the logic I was using.

Those invisible things of God are things like his great power, his unchangeableness, and his goodness. Those are just some examples.

Are you with me so far?

 

[BobRyan]

.. So you have to have a knowledge of good before you can see that. Since all humans can see it, it seems reasonable that it's something we inherit from our parents. Adam and Eve didn't have this ability at first, because they gained the ability to see, grasp, Good after eating the fruit.

I don't believe you've come close to proving this point. It's merely conjecture.

What I'd say we inherited from Adam and Eve is a desire for the flesh (or a sinful/rebellious nature). How can you reject the clear biblical definitions I supplied and prefer reading into the Bible things which are not there?

Amen to that! Massive inference and 99% conjecture are the "proof texts" of some ideas.

The wild idea that Adam and Eve only had the ability to "see and grasp GOOD after turning to rebellion of eating forbidden fruit" is an extreme you seldom find on this forum.

 

[BobRyan]

As I said, I was responding to a question from the OP.

In exploring the subject of the origin of the Sabbath commandment, the OP brought up the origin of the murder commandment, IIRC.

So I was exploring that with him, though I haven't seen him around for a while.

If you'd like to share your thoughts on the origin of the Sabbath commandment, that would be great!

We see the origin of the Sabbath Commandment in Gen 2:1-3 as already pointed out and as confirmed in legal code that points to it in Ex 20:11.

No wonder Bible scholars in all major Christian denominations affirm ALL TEN of the ten commandments as being included in the moral law of God for mankind

Gen 4 points to the sin of murder -
Gen 7-9 points out the distinction between clean and unclean animals.

What we don't see is Lev 11 inserted in Genesis before Genesis 6 - for defining the terms clean/unclean
What we don't see is Ex 20 inserted in Genesis before Genesis 4 -

The big "hint" here is that not every word spoken by God or angels to mankind for 1600 years is being recorded in the book of Genesis. Obviously.

So then it was "sin" to take God's name in vain - even in Genesis 1-4
It was a sin to dishonor parents even before Genesis 6
It was a sin to ignore the Word of God even if it was spoken and not written - even before Genesis 6.

 

[Leaf473]

Amen to that! Massive inference and 99% conjecture are the "proof texts" of some ideas.

The wild idea that Adam and Eve only had the ability to "see and grasp GOOD after turning to rebellion of eating forbidden fruit" is an extreme you seldom find on this forum.

Do you believe that Adam and Eve had the knowledge of Good and evil prior to eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil?

 

[Leaf473]

We see the origin of the Sabbath Commandment in Gen 2:1-3 as already pointed out and as confirmed in legal code that points to it in Ex 20:11.

No wonder Bible scholars in all major Christian denominations affirm ALL TEN of the ten commandments as being included in the moral law of God for mankind

Gen 4 points to the sin of murder -
Gen 7-9 points out the distinction between clean and unclean animals.

What we don't see is Lev 11 inserted in Genesis before Genesis 6 - for defining the terms clean/unclean
What we don't see is Ex 20 inserted in Genesis before Genesis 4 -

The big "hint" here is that not every word spoken by God or angels to mankind for 1600 years is being recorded in the book of Genesis. Obviously.

I agree that the Sabbath day is there in Genesis 2. I don't see that there is a commandment to do something on that day in Genesis 2.

Following the idea that if something is mentioned in Genesis then laws related to that thing must also have been given would mean that mentioning the sun and moon for times and seasons means that the laws about the feast days were given to Adam and Eve as well.

Now, are you following what I wrote there, or do you want me to talk more about it?

 

[BobRyan]

Heaven is a spiritual place, I know this because our earthly bodies don't go there (they stay in the ground).

Our physical bodies go there at the rapture according to 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4:13-18

 

[BobRyan]

Do you believe that Adam and Eve had the knowledge of Good and evil prior to eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil?

You said "knowledge of good" could not be had simply from knowing God and Angels - all of whom were good. You said man had to engage in rebellion before knowing about 'good'

Leaf473 said: ↑
.. So you have to have a knowledge of good before you can see that. Since all humans can see it, it seems reasonable that it's something we inherit from our parents. Adam and Eve didn't have this ability at first, because they gained the ability to see, grasp, Good after eating the fruit.

You claimed that meeting with God as sinless being before engaging in rebellion - would not allow them , would not enable them "to know good"

In fact what they did not know was "good AND EVIL" they only knew "Good" (by first hand experience) before engaging in rebellion.

God told them what not to do - when it came to that tree. So 'knowing good' they ALSO knew what not to do - what to avoid - what would be evil. But they did not "know evil" first hand because they had not engaged in it.

 

[DamianWarS]

Our physical bodies go there at the rapture according to 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4:13-18

According to 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 we join Christ in the clouds who just came down from heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

According to 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 we join Christ in the clouds who just came down from heaven.

John 14:103 Jesus tells us that His Father in heaven has a lot of rooms prepared their for the saints.. Jesus said "I go" there to prepare a place for you. To His Father "in heaven" -- Jesus went to heaven.

He said that He comes again to 'receive us' to Himself. Not simply to land on Earth and be with us - but to receive us up. In Matt 24:29-31 the saints are "gathered" not from Earth bu "from one end of the sky to the other".

We seek as Heb 11 states "a heavenly home".

Our home is in heaven.,

Jesus appears and the saints are caught UP to meet the Lord in the air 1 Thess 4:13-18 - not in Israel or Pakistan or Idaho -- but to meet the Lord in the air where he then takes us to His Father's house..

This is the appearing of Christ and the rapture.

1 Cor 15 tells us we get new physical bodies at that moment so also does 2 Cor 5:1-5 give us that same information.

 

[DamianWarS]

where he then takes us to His Father's house

Where does it say that?

 

[Leaf473]

You said "knowledge of good" could not be had simply from knowing God and Angels - all of whom were good. You said man had to engage in rebellion before knowing about 'good'

I don't think Adam and Eve had the knowledge of Good and evil prior to eating the fruit. Would there possibly have been a different way for them to gain that knowledge? Maybe.

But what is your answer, if you wish to share:
Did Adam and Eve have the knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit?

 

[Leaf473]

You claimed that meeting with God as sinless being before engaging in rebellion - would not allow them , would not enable them "to know good"

In fact what they did not know was "good AND EVIL" they only knew "Good" (by first hand experience) before engaging in rebellion.

God told them what not to do - when it came to that tree. So 'knowing good' they ALSO knew what not to do - what to avoid - what would be evil. But they did not "know evil" first hand because they had not engaged in it.

It sounds like your answer is Yes, Adam and Eve did know good and evil prior to eating the fruit.

They knew good first hand and evil second hand... Or maybe as a kind of corollary, it sounds like.

Okay, I think we can work with that. Would you agree that all humans since the time of Adam and Eve have known Good and evil?

 

[BobRyan]

It sounds like your answer is Yes, Adam and Eve did know good and evil prior to eating the fruit.

Except I specifically said they knew good by experiencing it and did not know evil by experiencing it - even though God did tell them not to do the evil of eating from the forbidden tree.... so 'yeah' except for all the "details".

Are you not interested in those details in my responses?

Okay, I think we can work with that. Would you agree that all humans since the time of Adam and Eve have known Good and evil?

Indeed I would say everyone since then has personally experienced both.

And I would say that the creation Sabbath topic does not argue for experiencing "evil".

 

[BobRyan]

I don't think Adam and Eve had the knowledge of Good and evil prior to eating the fruit. Would there possibly have been a different way for them to gain that knowledge?

So first tell us how they could not have possibly experienced "good" and have had first hand knowledge of Good - before engaging in outright rebellion.

You seem to be sidestepping this point each time it is brought up.

 

[Leaf473]

Except I specifically said they knew good by experiencing it and did not know evil by experiencing it - even though God did tell them not to do the evil of eating from the forbidden tree.... so 'yeah' except for all the "details".

Are you not interested in those details in my responses?



Indeed I would say everyone since then has personally experienced both.

And I would say that the creation Sabbath topic does not argue for experiencing "evil".

Sure, I'm interested in the details in your post. How do those details relate to the Sabbath commandment being known by Adam and Eve?

 

[Leaf473]

So first tell us how they could not have possibly experienced "good" and have had first hand knowledge of Good - before engaging in outright rebellion.

You seem to be sidestepping this point each time it is brought up.

Oh, I think they did experience good, in that they experienced God's goodness.

But did they have knowledge of Good and evil at first? I don't think so. As Genesis 3 says,
Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.

Is it possible that earlier they knew good but not evil? Maybe. But I thought earlier you said that they knew good firsthand and evil in some other way.

If they knew both Good and evil earlier, then why does God say that now they had "become like us"?

But I'm concerned that we may have two different trains of thought going. That can lead to confusion. I'd prefer to first pursue the idea that Adam and Eve did know good and evil, and all humans since then have known it as well.

 

[BobRyan]

Oh, I think they did experience good, in that they experienced God's goodness. .

Indeed -- they did not need to "do evil" in order to know good by experiencing God and the loyal angels.

All they would get from the forbidden tree is to not merely know "about" evil, knowing about what is the wrong thing to do (as they were informed of it in Gen 2) -- but to "know by experiencing" evil.

Obviously.

So then the creation Sabbath of Gen 2:1-3 - is another thing they knew -- and wouldn't you know it? That would be on the topic of this thread!

 

[BobRyan]

If they knew both Good and evil earlier, then why does God say that now they had "become like us"?
.

God is mocking Satan - who claimed that if Adam turned to rebellion he would "be like God".. when in fact Gen 3 and Gen 4 shows that all Adam got from it was pain and death, and a sinful nature.

 

[Leaf473]

Indeed -- they did not need to "do evil" in order to know good by experiencing God and the loyal angels.

All they would get from the forbidden tree is to not merely know "about" evil, knowing about what is the wrong thing to do (as they were informed of it in Gen 2) -- but to "know by experiencing" evil.

Obviously.

So then the creation Sabbath of Gen 2:1-3 - is another thing they knew -- and wouldn't you know it? That would be on the topic of this thread!

Okay, So Adam and Eve knew about evil, knowing that it was the wrong thing to do. And Cain would have known this as well, yes?