Creation Sabbath Origin

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, Moses is reviewing the situation.

He says that God said to remember that you were slaves in Egypt.

And he says that those words - about being slaves in Egypt - were written on the stone tablets.

So there's a bit of a difficulty in putting it all together imo.

That's why I offered two possibilities for resolving the issue in post #58.

Moses is not reviewing the situation he is reviewing the Ten Commandments with them. Did God write the Ten Commandments or did Moses? That should give you the answer to your question....

This is God's Testimony, written on stone by His own finger. Exodus 31:18

You might want to notice in v2. God does something for us first before asking us to obey Him. God brings us out of sin/bondage first and then asks us to obey Him though faith and love, which keeps us out of bondage to sin.


20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

 

[Leaf473]

Moses is not reviewing the situation he is reviewing the Ten Commandments with them. Did God write the Ten Commandments or did Moses? That should give you the answer to your question....

This is God's Testimony, written on stone by His own finger. Exodus 31:18

You might want to notice in v2. God does something for us first before asking us to obey Him. God brings us out of sin/bondage first and then asks us to obey Him though faith and love, which keeps us out of bondage to sin.


20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

Okay... sure. In Deuteronomy 5, Moses is reviewing the ten commandments.

Deuteronomy 5 goes on to say
"These words..."
"...and he added no more"
"He wrote them on two tables of stone...".

So that's a bit of a quandary When comparing it to Exodus 20 imo.

Yes, God wrote the ten commandments. I don't see how that answers the above issue.

And Yes, God brings us out of bondage, which parallels God bringing Israel out of Egypt. Remembering that God brought us out of bondage is the spirit or principle of that commandment, imo.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Okay... sure. In Deuteronomy 5, Moses is reviewing the ten commandments.

Deuteronomy 5 goes on to say
"These words..."
"...and he added no more"
"He wrote them on two tables of stone...".

So that's a bit of a quandary When comparing it to Exodus 20 imo.

Yes, God wrote the ten commandments. I don't see how that answers the above issue.

And Yes, God brings us out of bondage, which parallels God bringing Israel out of Egypt. Remembering that God brought us out of bondage is the spirit or principle of that commandment, imo.

I'm sorry you don't understand, I don't think I can explain it any further, so I will leave it between you and God. I wish you well seeking His Word.

 

[Leaf473]

I'm sorry you don't understand, I don't think I can explain it any further, so I will leave it between you and God. I wish you well seeking His Word.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, God’s love, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.
2 Corinthians 13

 

[Icyspark]

I believe you'll scroll down further you'll come to the Brown-Driver-Briggs, a very detailed reference work.

Strong's Hebrew: 1288. בָּרַך (barak) -- to kneel, bless

Hi Leaf473,

I did as you suggested and I didn't find that it supported your contention. The Bible dictionary definition says essentially the same thing as your Brown-Driver-Briggs reference work. I should also note that your reference work has the text in question (Genesis 2:3) under the section "2 God blesses" and the subsection "b. things: Sabbath." In other words your previous contention that you believed that God blessed "in the sense of eulogize, as in say good things about, or salute" isn't tenable using your own provided source.

Again, here's what Easton's Bible Dictionary has for its entry on "bless":

Bless
(1.) God blesses his people when he bestows on them some gift temporal or spiritual (Gen. 1:22; 24:35; Job 42:12; Ps. 45:2; 104:24, 35).

(2.) We bless God when we thank him for his mercies (Ps. 103:1, 2; 145:1, 2).

(3.) A man blesses himself when he invokes God's blessing (Isa. 65:16), or rejoices in God's goodness to him (Deut. 29:19; Ps. 49:18).

(4.) One blesses another when he expresses good wishes or offers prayer to God for his welfare (Gen. 24:60; 31:55; 1 Sam. 2:20). Sometimes blessings were uttered under divine inspiration, as in the case of Noah, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses (Gen. 9:26, 27; 27:28, 29, 40; 48:15-20; 49:1-28; Deut. 33). The priests were divinely authorized to bless the people (Deut. 10:8; Num. 6:22-27). We have many examples of apostolic benediction (2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 6:23, 24; 2 Thess. 3:16, 18; Heb. 13:20, 21; 1 Pet. 5:10, 11).

(5.) Among the Jews in their thank-offerings the master of the feast took a cup of wine in his hand, and after having blessed God for it and for other mercies then enjoyed, handed it to his guests, who all partook of it. Ps. 116:13 refers to this custom. It is also alluded to in 1 Cor. 10:16, where the apostle speaks of the "cup of blessing.
​

Taking the words of Jesus about the Sabbath being "made for human beings" it seems pretty obvious that option (1.) above is the most applicable to why God blessed the Sabbath day.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

(I wasn't aware how long this post was. I'll answer it in parts.)

About sin being transgression of the law, I'm having difficulty following your reasoning.

Are you attempting to end with the conclusion that sin is transgression of the law... and nothing else?

That is, transgression of the law, and only transgression of the law, constitutes sin?

Hi Leaf473,

I appreciate the opportunity to clarify my position.

The Bible supplies several definitions of sin. One is the example we are considering above (i.e. Sin is the transgression of the law).

A secondary option is text from James 4:17--Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. This is interesting when one asks the question, "What is good?" What does the Bible say? The following text is obviously does not encompass all that the Bible has to say about what is good, but it is certainly enlightening in this context:

Romans 7:7-12
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and GOOD.​

Speaking of the Ten Commandments--in the present tense--Paul says "the law IS holy, and the commandment holy and just and GOOD." This passage also correlates with the idea that "sin is the transgression of the law" in that Paul clearly says he wouldn't have known what sin was "except through the law." What law? Paul answers by quoting one of the Ten.

That said, I believe a broader understanding of what constitutes sin which takes something like Adam and Eve's unfruitful situation into account would be to acknowledge that any transgression of the revealed will of God is sin. So Cain would not be a sinner if there was nothing revealed which he could transgress. That's fair, right? That's just, right? That's God, right?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

About God never intending us to know evil,

I'm wary of saying what God's intentions are. But it does look like he intended at least the possibility that we would get the knowledge of Good and evil. That's why he put that tree in that garden.

I think we inherit the knowledge of good and evil from our parents. If we disagree on that, we probably won't agree on a definition of sin, either.

Hi Leaf473,

I can appreciate your concern about saying what God's intentions are. However, if we examine what the Scriptures say about God then I believe it's possible to ascertain His intentions about related themes.

The Bible says that God doesn't tempt anyone to sin. Do you agree with that?

With the above text in mind, do you believe that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed there by God as a temptation to sin?

A knowledge of evil was obtained by transgressing the command of God which resulted in sin. Sin leads to separation from God. Do you believe it was God's intent to create separation between Himself and His creation?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

About some laws being ceremonial,

I believe the question is:
Do the scriptures call those laws Ceremonial?

It's not a matter of finding some laws which a person believes are ceremonial. Rather, do the scriptures call those laws ceremonial.

iirc, I did a word search on the King James Bible looking for the word Ceremonial... it doesn't occur.

Hi Leaf473,

This is an interesting premise. So it looks like more modern translations do use the word "ceremonial." So I checked what the Brown-Driver-Briggs reference has for the Hebrew word tabor which is translated as "clean, pure" and guess what? Their first definition says:

1 ceremonially clean, of animals Genesis 7:2 (twice in verse); Genesis 7:8 (twice in verse); Genesis 8:20 (twice in verse) (all J), Leviticus 14:4 (P), Leviticus 20:25 (twice in verse) (H), Deuteronomy 14:11,20; places Leviticus 4:12; Leviticus 6:4; Leviticus 10:14; Leviticus 11:36; Numbers 19:9 (all P); things Leviticus 10:10; Leviticus 11:37,47; Leviticus 14:57 (P), Ezekiel 22:26; Ezekiel 44:23; Isaiah 66:20; Malachi 1:11; persons Leviticus 7:19; Leviticus 13:13,17,37,39,40,41; Leviticus 15:8; Numbers 5:28; Numbers 9:13; Numbers 18:11,13; Numbers 19:9,18,19 (all P), Deuteronomy 12:15,22; Deuteronomy 15:22; Deuteronomy 23:11; 1 Samuel 20:26 a + see :26 b ᵑ0 but read טֹהַר Pu`al, see טָהֵר, 2 Chronicles 30:17; Ezra 6:20.
​

That said, I'm not sure what your contention is here?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

I did as you suggested and I didn't find that it supported your contention. The Bible dictionary definition says essentially the same thing as your Brown-Driver-Briggs reference work. I should also note that your reference work has the text in question (Genesis 2:3) under the section "2 God blesses" and the subsection "b. things: Sabbath." In other words your previous contention that you believed that God blessed "in the sense of eulogize, as in say good things about, or salute" isn't tenable using your own provided source.

Again, here's what Easton's Bible Dictionary has for its entry on "bless":

Bless
(1.) God blesses his people when he bestows on them some gift temporal or spiritual (Gen. 1:22; 24:35; Job 42:12; Ps. 45:2; 104:24, 35).

(2.) We bless God when we thank him for his mercies (Ps. 103:1, 2; 145:1, 2).

(3.) A man blesses himself when he invokes God's blessing (Isa. 65:16), or rejoices in God's goodness to him (Deut. 29:19; Ps. 49:18).

(4.) One blesses another when he expresses good wishes or offers prayer to God for his welfare (Gen. 24:60; 31:55; 1 Sam. 2:20). Sometimes blessings were uttered under divine inspiration, as in the case of Noah, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses (Gen. 9:26, 27; 27:28, 29, 40; 48:15-20; 49:1-28; Deut. 33). The priests were divinely authorized to bless the people (Deut. 10:8; Num. 6:22-27). We have many examples of apostolic benediction (2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 6:23, 24; 2 Thess. 3:16, 18; Heb. 13:20, 21; 1 Pet. 5:10, 11).

(5.) Among the Jews in their thank-offerings the master of the feast took a cup of wine in his hand, and after having blessed God for it and for other mercies then enjoyed, handed it to his guests, who all partook of it. Ps. 116:13 refers to this custom. It is also alluded to in 1 Cor. 10:16, where the apostle speaks of the "cup of blessing.
​

Taking the words of Jesus about the Sabbath being "made for human beings" it seems pretty obvious that option (1.) above is the most applicable to why God blessed the Sabbath day.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Looks like we disagree, there. I think the BDB does support what I was saying.

I believe you would ask me For whom was the Sabbath blessed?

My response was that it didn't have to be blessed for someone. It could simply be, in a sense, eulogized.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

I appreciate the opportunity to clarify my position.

The Bible supplies several definitions of sin. One is the example we are considering above (i.e. Sin is the transgression of the law).

A secondary option is text from James 4:17--Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. This is interesting when one asks the question, "What is good?" What does the Bible say? The following text is obviously does not encompass all that the Bible has to say about what is good, but it is certainly enlightening in this context:

Romans 7:7-12
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and GOOD.​

Speaking of the Ten Commandments--in the present tense--Paul says "the law IS holy, and the commandment holy and just and GOOD." This passage also correlates with the idea that "sin is the transgression of the law" in that Paul clearly says he wouldn't have known what sin was "except through the law." What law? Paul answers by quoting one of the Ten.

That said, I believe a broader understanding of what constitutes sin which takes something like Adam and Eve's unfruitful situation into account would be to acknowledge that any transgression of the revealed will of God is sin. So Cain would not be a sinner if there was nothing revealed which he could transgress. That's fair, right? That's just, right? That's God, right?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Did Cain have the knowledge of Good and evil? I think he did. I think Adam and Eve passed that knowledge of Good and evil to their children, who then passed it to their children, and so on to us.

Yes, the law of Moses clarifies that knowledge. But looking around the world and throughout history, humans have a sense of Good and evil.

So then about your quote from James 4, a person who knows what is good and doesn't do it, to that person it is sin.

I think it's the same story with Cain. He didn't have to have a detailed commandment about murder to know that there was something wrong with it.

That's how it looks to me.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

I can appreciate your concern about saying what God's intentions are. However, if we examine what the Scriptures say about God then I believe it's possible to ascertain His intentions about related themes.

The Bible says that God doesn't tempt anyone to sin. Do you agree with that?

With the above text in mind, do you believe that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed there by God as a temptation to sin?

A knowledge of evil was obtained by transgressing the command of God which resulted in sin. Sin leads to separation from God. Do you believe it was God's intent to create separation between Himself and His creation?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

I agree that God doesn't tempt anyone to sin. However, putting that tree in the garden wasn't temptation in itself. It was just providing the possibility that they could sin.

I believe that God intended to create the possibility that humans could separate themselves from him. That's my guess.

If he just wanted mindless praise, he could have stopped with the sun, moon, and stars:
The heavens declare the glory of God.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

This is an interesting premise. So it looks like more modern translations do use the word "ceremonial." So I checked what the Brown-Driver-Briggs reference has for the Hebrew word tabor which is translated as "clean, pure" and guess what? Their first definition says:

1 ceremonially clean, of animals Genesis 7:2 (twice in verse); Genesis 7:8 (twice in verse); Genesis 8:20 (twice in verse) (all J), Leviticus 14:4 (P), Leviticus 20:25 (twice in verse) (H), Deuteronomy 14:11,20; places Leviticus 4:12; Leviticus 6:4; Leviticus 10:14; Leviticus 11:36; Numbers 19:9 (all P); things Leviticus 10:10; Leviticus 11:37,47; Leviticus 14:57 (P), Ezekiel 22:26; Ezekiel 44:23; Isaiah 66:20; Malachi 1:11; persons Leviticus 7:19; Leviticus 13:13,17,37,39,40,41; Leviticus 15:8; Numbers 5:28; Numbers 9:13; Numbers 18:11,13; Numbers 19:9,18,19 (all P), Deuteronomy 12:15,22; Deuteronomy 15:22; Deuteronomy 23:11; 1 Samuel 20:26 a + see :26 b ᵑ0 but read טֹהַר Pu`al, see טָהֵר, 2 Chronicles 30:17; Ezra 6:20.
​

That said, I'm not sure what your contention is here?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The issue, as I remember it, is that you disagreed with some people who said the Sabbath was a ceremonial law.

I had said I didn't think any laws were actually called ceremonial in the scripture.

So while things may be ceremonially clean, I'm not aware of a law that is described as ceremonial by the scriptures.

Good to hear from you again!

 

[Icyspark]

The issue, as I remember it, is that you disagreed with some people who said the Sabbath was a ceremonial law.

I had said I didn't think any laws were actually called ceremonial in the scripture.

So while things may be ceremonially clean, I'm not aware of a law that is described as ceremonial by the scriptures.

Good to hear from you again!

Hi Leaf473,

Good to hear from you as well!

So do you accept the Brown-Driver-Briggs reference indicating how the Hebrew word tabor which is translated as "clean, pure" is also defined as "ceremonially"?

Ultimately it's not a particular discussion I need to have as it doesn't impact on my position but rather on those who hold to the idea that the Sabbath was a ceremonial ordinance.

I believe those who dispute the Genesis origin of the Sabbath do so because of the incredible weight it carries against their tenuous supposition that the Sabbath is some sort of a ceremonial ordinance that came to an end in the Christian era.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

Good to hear from you as well!

So do you accept the Brown-Driver-Briggs reference indicating how the Hebrew word tabor which is translated as "clean, pure" is also defined as "ceremonially"?

Ultimately it's not a particular discussion I need to have as it doesn't impact on my position but rather on those who hold to the idea that the Sabbath was a ceremonial ordinance.



God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Yes, the definition is fine, I think.

I see it's also used in psalm 12:6,
The words of the Lord are pure words.

So sure, that word can be applied to the law because it can be applied to the entire Bible.

Are there instances where that word is applied to just certain laws? Maybe there are.

Strong's Hebrew: 2889. טָהוֹר (tahor) -- clean, pure

But as you say, this issue is not really critical to the theme of the thread, so I'm happy leaving it behind, if you wish.

 

[Icyspark]

Did Cain have the knowledge of Good and evil? I think he did. I think Adam and Eve passed that knowledge of Good and evil to their children, who then passed it to their children, and so on to us.

Yes, the law of Moses clarifies that knowledge. But looking around the world and throughout history, humans have a sense of Good and evil.

So then about your quote from James 4, a person who knows what is good and doesn't do it, to that person it is sin.

I think it's the same story with Cain. He didn't have to have a detailed commandment about murder to know that there was something wrong with it.

That's how it looks to me.

Hi Leaf473,

Before I get into addressing this, let me first attempt to fully understand what your belief entails. As icy it your position basically embraces the idea that Cain inherently knew it was evil for him to murder based on what you construe as inherited knowledge which was passed to him from Adam and Eve. Is that a correct restatement of your belief? Do you have any texts to buttress this belief?

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

Before I get into addressing this, let me first attempt to fully understand what your belief entails. As icy it your position basically embraces the idea that Cain inherently knew it was evil for him to murder based on what you construe as inherited knowledge which was passed to him from Adam and Eve. Is that a correct restatement of your belief? Do you have any texts to buttress this belief?

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

One text would be from Romans 1
... that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse.

Also I don't think Cain inherited knowledge as in a set of facts. Rather, it's the knowledge of Good and evil. Maybe another way of saying it is an understanding of something, an ability to grasp something that Adam and Eve had not been able to grasp before they ate the fruit.

Their eyes were opened, I believe it says.

Peace be with you.

 

[Icyspark]

One text would be from Romans 1
... that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse.

Also I don't think Cain inherited knowledge as in a set of facts. Rather, it's the knowledge of Good and evil. Maybe another way of saying it is an understanding of something, an ability to grasp something that Adam and Eve had not been able to grasp before they ate the fruit.

Their eyes were opened, I believe it says.

Peace be with you.

Hi Leaf473,

Thanks.

Regarding your appeal to Romans 1 as support for your premise I'd have to say that I don't see it. There's really nothing there to support your good and evil inheritance precedence. In fact your chosen verses say nothing about good or evil. That's a serious leap into the unknown.

But here's where your general premise runs into a problem. If you believe that a generic knowledge of good and evil is inherently inherited and that Cain knew it was evil for him to murder based on said inheritance then would it not be just as likely that the Sabbath was known and understood as something which was to be observed? You can't play fast and loose in this area of what is inherited and then claim that something else is not inherited. That is illogical and creates all sorts of problems in which people get to decide for themselves what is good or evil. God doesn't work like that.

The Sabbath is literally spelled out in Genesis 2:1-3. Adam and Eve were with Jesus on the seventh day when He blessed the day and made it holy. You acknowledge that this is the Sabbath, yet you inconsistently look for a command for this creation institution and do not likewise seek for a command prohibiting murder.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

Thanks.

Regarding your appeal to Romans 1 as support for your premise I'd have to say that I don't see it. There's really nothing there to support your good and evil inheritance precedence. In fact your chosen verses say nothing about good or evil. That's a serious leap into the unknown.

But here's where your general premise runs into a problem. If you believe that a generic knowledge of good and evil is inherently inherited and that Cain knew it was evil for him to murder based on said inheritance then would it not be just as likely that the Sabbath was known and understood as something which was to be observed? You can't play fast and loose in this area of what is inherited and then claim that something else is not inherited. That is illogical and creates all sorts of problems in which people get to decide for themselves what is good or evil. God doesn't work like that.

The Sabbath is literally spelled out in Genesis 2:1-3. Adam and Eve were with Jesus on the seventh day when He blessed the day and made it holy. You acknowledge that this is the Sabbath, yet you inconsistently look for a command for this creation institution and do not likewise seek for a command prohibiting murder.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The Romans passage talks about God's qualities being clearly seen. One of God's qualities is being Good. So you have to have a knowledge of good before you can see that. Since all humans can see it, it seems reasonable that it's something we inherit from our parents.

Adam and Eve didn't have this ability at first, because they gained the ability to see, grasp, Good after eating the fruit.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

Thanks.

Regarding your appeal to Romans 1 as support for your premise I'd have to say that I don't see it. There's really nothing there to support your good and evil inheritance precedence. In fact your chosen verses say nothing about good or evil. That's a serious leap into the unknown.

But here's where your general premise runs into a problem. If you believe that a generic knowledge of good and evil is inherently inherited and that Cain knew it was evil for him to murder based on said inheritance then would it not be just as likely that the Sabbath was known and understood as something which was to be observed? You can't play fast and loose in this area of what is inherited and then claim that something else is not inherited. That is illogical and creates all sorts of problems in which people get to decide for themselves what is good or evil. God doesn't work like that.

The Sabbath is literally spelled out in Genesis 2:1-3. Adam and Eve were with Jesus on the seventh day when He blessed the day and made it holy. You acknowledge that this is the Sabbath, yet you inconsistently look for a command for this creation institution and do not likewise seek for a command prohibiting murder.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

About the Sabbath possibly being known to Cain,

Yes, it's possible. I was saying it's not a necessary conclusion.

So while Cain may have known about the commandments not to murder, to keep the Sabbath, and not to wear blended fabrics,
it's not a necessary conclusion that he knew them as they are spelled out at Sinai.

 

[Leaf473]

More thoughts on the knowledge of Good and evil,

All humans have the ability to make moral decisions.
(Okay, maybe with an exception for those with severe mental issues... But generally speaking.)

Thus, humans can be held morally responsible for their decisions.

And this ability to make a moral decision is found all over the world, even among people who haven't heard the law of Moses.