the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

[Timtofly]

That is one example where a prophecy was conditional. And it was made clear that it was conditional. That doesn't mean all prophecy is conditional. That is clearly not the case. If any prophecy is conditional then it will say so. Otherwise, the prophecy is certain to be fulfilled as written. Period.

Do you think the prophecies about the return of Christ are conditional? Of course they're not! There is nothing to indicate that. He is coming again. Period. Nothing can stop that from happening. It is written.

What made it clear, the outcome in hindsight?

There is no conditional point in this phrase:

"Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown."

You as an Amil don't even accept Christ coming back to current earth. Why are you arguing about post Second Coming earth that is not your Second Coming earth?

The point of condition is not always evident. Even you claim the message Jonah gave was conditional. You claim it was evident. Did God destroy Nineveh in 40 days?

 

[Douggg]

You're both wrong. There is no indication whatsoever that there will still be time left after the seventh trumpet sounds.

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

There is no indication whatsoever here of a time period of "a little less than 42 months" still occurring after this. The seventh trumpet will sound and immediately we will all be changed (1 Cor 15:50-54) and the kingdom of world will become the kingdom of the Father and His Messiah.

If you read from kjv, Revelation 11:15 refers to the kingdoms plural of this world, and "are become" indicating the final process of taking the kingdoms of this world out from under Satan and his angels control will begin, once that the 7th angel has sounded. A person has to consider Revelation 10:7 to get the insight of what verse 15 means.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Please look at my chart below. And it's sequence:


1. 1260 days of the two witnesses
2. then 3 1/2 days their bodies lie dead in the streets, until they come back to life and ascend to heaven
3. then the 7th angel blows his trumpet
4. signaling Michael to lead his angels in a war to cast Satan and his angels down to earth from the 2nd heaven.
5. then the time/times/half time that Satan will have left.
6. then Jesus returns, bringing the kingdom of heaven with Him to become the kingdom of God here on earth over all kingdoms (nations).

 

[Douggg]

Why do you limit it to that? Revelation 12 indicates that the woman's offspring include Jesus and those who believe in Him. That's it. And those who believe in Him include Gentile believers. So, there's no basis for limiting the woman's offspring like this.

The woman's children are the children of Israel, commonly known as the Jews.

When Satan gets kicked down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9, just after the two witnesses ascend to heaven, the abomination of desolation will have been set up on the temple mount.

The Jews in Judea begins to flee to the mountains when that statue image is placed on the temple mount. The beast will want to stop their fleeing, so the witnesses will send plagues upon his kingdom, as cover for the fleeing Jews.

The beast though ends up killing the two witnesses and fleeing will be more difficult.

In Revelation 12:14-16, the woman Israel flees (flys) into the wilderness. Which is the Jews fleeing to the mountains, albeit more difficult.

The remnant of her children in verse 17 are the Jews in Judea who are not able to escape, because they didn't act right away, which Jesus tells them not to delay when they see the abomination of desolation in the holy place, the temple mount.

The remnant to be persecuted by Satan, the beast, and the false prophet will be rescued in Zechariah 14 as Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives creating a valley for them to escape through.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

__________________________________________________

Revelation 12 is not about the church. Although I do agree with you that there will be a multitude of gentiles turning to Jesus during the great tribulation as indicated in Revelation 7, that John sees in heaven having come out the great tribulation, from all nations, peoples, tongues.

 

[Douggg]

Why would that be the case? Does He force them to believe in Him? No one there will have free will anymore at that point?

Paul had indicated that blindness in part has come up on the Jews, for our sake, that we may receive salvation and the kingdom of God - until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

The blindness they suffer from by rejecting Jesus, the scales will be removed from their eyes when their perceived messiah, the Antichrist, in the near future betrays them - by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.
.

 

[Douggg]

When did salvation and the kingdom of our God come? Long ago by way of the death and resurrection of Christ. The kingdom of God came with power on the day of Pentecost shortly after that. There is no basis whatsoever for applying this verse to the future.

Well certainly salvation came when Jesus died on the cross and resurrected on the third day. And the kingdom of God begun within Christians at that time.

Who still pray the Lord's prayer of "may your Kingdom come" to be the ruling kingdom here on earth as God's will will be done here on earth as it is in heaven. The thousand year reign of Jesus here on earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, in Revelation 10:7, it doesn't say shortest, nor longest length of a period of days.

When the seventh angel sound his voice there are a little less than 42 months left in the 7 years. Not a 7 day week.

You really think the days of the sounding is years? It would have said in the years of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Pretty sure a set of days is 7. And seven days is a week.

The 42 months is not the "other half". The 42 months is in the midst of the week of days. Certainly it is not in the middle of 7 years. That would make 10.5 years total.

Why not just stick with days, like Revelation 10 says? The last half of the week is the 3.5 days mentioned in Revelation 11.

 

[Douggg]

You really think the days of the sounding is years? It would have said in the years of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

"the days of"- is a figure of speech. And it is when the seventh angel begins to sound. i.e as soon as he blows his trumpet... "the day of" begin.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The verse is just saying when the seventh angel blows his trump - the prophecies of God, concerning the kingdom of God becoming the everlasting kingdom over all kingdoms (nations) here on earth - that mystery will be finished, in those days that follow the seventh angel blowing his trumpet.

I put it on my chart. It is in red, you can't miss it.

1. 1260 days of the two witnesses
2. then 3 1/2 days their bodies lie dead in the streets, until they come back to life and ascend to heaven
3. then the 7th angel blows his trumpet
4. signaling Michael to lead his angels in a war to cast Satan and his angels down to earth from the 2nd heaven.
5. then the time/times/half time that Satan will have left.
6. then Jesus returns, bringing the kingdom of heaven with Him to become the kingdom of God here on earth over all kingdoms (nations).

 

[Insureman23]

I appreciate the fact that you made an effort to put everything on a chart to organize end times events in relation to each other.

One of the issues I have with the mid-trib view is that it locks in the rapture timing to a very narrow ban.

Contrary to what I think Jesus said about not knowing what day our Lord comes, in three places in Matthew 24:

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

And in Luke 21:34-36 (which is where I adopted the term "anytime" to describe my rapture view. Anytime rapture view.)

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The great tribulation actually begins 75 days before the exact mid-point. When the abomination of desolation statue image will be set on the temple mount.

So a mid-trib rapture timing to miss the great tribulation would not work.

View attachment 320089

I believe I Thess 5:4 and Rev 10:7 (KJV) sheds some light on the narrow ban.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Here we go - replacement theology. Jerry, I don't buy into replacement theology.

Nor that the 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 are 1260 years.

I make charts which everything fits, using the timeframes given in the bible - without alteration. Including the worship of Satan and the worship of the beast during the 42 months (see my chart below).

Do you acknowledge that Satan and the beast person are going to be worshiped during the 42 months of Revelation 13:4-5?

4 And they worshipped the dragon w hich gave power unto the beast:and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


View attachment 320172

No, the idea that God did not foresee the Church is strictly a dispensationalist’s invention; that’s open theism. If it quacks like a duck…

I’m not going to let you sidestep Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; Hosea 2:14-23 or Matthew 12:48-50 that affirms the woman in Revelation 12 is the Church. Christ established the New Covenant with the elect of Israel, the apostles, and they were the Church.

The woman is seen in heaven at the time the man child, Christ, is caught up in heaven, which is a first advent phenomenon. Here we have the woman cared for in the wilderness just and prophesied in Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23. And the casting down of Satan is upheld as a first advent phenomenon in Luke 10:18, and the illustration of the woman in heaven is identified by Ephesian 2:6, and the Church depicted as a betrothed woman in 2 Corinthians 11:2. All of which affirms that Revelation 12 illustrates phenomena commencing with the first advent.

In the parable of The Wheat and the Tares, God sows the good seed in the world, which is clearly the members of the Church and fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; Hosea 2:14-23. The woman is done with the 1260 years in the wilderness. Protestantism took away the power of the Popes, which lasted 1260 years.

God did foresee the Church and prophesied about it in the aforementioned texts; that's Compatibilism, which destroys dispensationalism and your chart. The Church is the vehicle to restore both houses of Israel in the wilderness. Obviously, you don't know the meaning of Replacement theology.

 

[Timtofly]

I already explained this.

It's not a completely separate earth, though. It will be this earth made new.

Would that not be just another dispensation of life in this creation?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

That is one example where a prophecy was conditional. And it was made clear that it was conditional. That doesn't mean all prophecy is conditional. That is clearly not the case. If any prophecy is conditional then it will say so. Otherwise, the prophecy is certain to be fulfilled as written. Period.

Do you think the prophecies about the return of Christ are conditional? Of course they're not! There is nothing to indicate that. He is coming again. Period. Nothing can stop that from happening. It is written.

The example of Jonah can hardly be viewed in support of conditional prophecy, Spiritual Jew. What we have in Jonah is an example of God’s influence or power to change the carnal nature or bend it to his will as he did with Jonah. Such a display of power affirms that God’s Providence is not contingent upon man’s will. It affirms His power was instrumental in the outcome of the prophecy to Nineveh.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Romans 9:16)​

Scripture does not maintain conditional prophecy by which Covenantalism replaces Israel with the Church. The Church is the vehicle to restore both houses of Israel in the wilderness (Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; Hosea 2:14-23). Neither supersessionism nor dispensationalism can be upheld in scripture.

 

[Douggg]

No, the idea that God did not foresee the Church is strictly a dispensationalist’s invention; that’s open theism. If it quacks like a duck…

What ? God knows everything. So why would you say that some think God did not foresee the Church?

Jerry, I realize that you oppose dispensationalism (a system that I don't hold), but instead do you hold to "covenant theology" ?

I am trying to figure out why the obsession you have against dispensationalism.

 

[Douggg]

God did foresee the Church and prophesied about it in the aforementioned texts; that's Compatibilism, which destroys dispensationalism and your chart.

Jerry, my chart destroys historistism. Which so far, you have neither listed the events in sequence that precede Jesus's Second Coming. Nor copied and pasted any historist chart doing so - from other historists. Jerry, you are missing in action.

 

[WhoIsLikeGod?]

so, I'll just come out and say it at the beginning so everyone knows how i view this, I'm personally a premillennial, futurist, post-trib. i understand there are others who would disagree with me, and im perfectly fine with that, that's why i dont want to limit who can respond. i would like to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions based on what they have searched and studied

in my search and study of eschatology, i've come across an individual named Pastor Bill MacGregor. now he himself is a post trib, pre wrath, however he does have some peculiar beliefs:

~ he believes that we are in Daniel's 70th week. He equates this due to his belief that the signing of the Abraham Accords was the start of Daniel's 70th week. He also thinks the Jared Kushner is the Antichrist, because it was Kushner who instigated the Abraham Accords.

~ he believes that the vaccine is the Mark of the Beast. he takes this stance based on his belief that the use of luciferase in the vaccine is what will trigger the mark once the use 5G is implemented.

~ he believes that the third seal is currently being opened with Biden and his inflation, while the first seal was Kushner promoting peace with the Abraham Accords, and the second seal being the vaccine.

~ because of his beliefs regarding Daniel's 70th week and the Antichrist, he has recently stated that he has been able to calculate when the rapture would take place: roughly 13 months from, IIRC, September of 2023. He has stated the exact date in some of his sermons, which are found exclusively on bit chute

~ in addition to the above, he has also stated that New York is the harlot of Babylon, New York will be destroyed due to a tsunami created by a nuclear explosion, there are 144,000 frozen Jews in Antarctica and will be unfrozen soon to spread the Gospel (i kid you not)

i would love to hear everyone's thought and opinions based on scriptures as to why this pastor may be right or wrong

Breaking the Beast

“The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name (Rev. 13:1).”

Beast = kingdom (Dan. 7:23)
Heads = kings (Rev. 17:10)

The Holy Roman Empire (Daniel 7’s fourth beast) was once comprised of Italy and Germany. Dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire: 1806.

Beast-kingdom from the Sea (Rev. 13:1): the Neo-Roman Empire

Seven Italian Head-kings
1. Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia (1802–1821)
2. Carlo Felice Giuseppe Maria di Savoia (1821–1831)
3. Carlo Alberto Emanuele Vittorio Maria Clemente Saverio di Savoia (1831–1849)
4. Vittorio Emanuele Maria Alberto Eugenio Ferdinando Tommaso (1849–1878)
5. Umberto Ranieri Carlo Emanuele Giovanni Maria Ferdinando Eugenio di Savoia (1878–1900)
6. Vittorio Emanuele Ferdinando Maria Gennaro di Savoia-Carignano (1900–1946)*
7. Umberto Nicola Tommaso Giovanni Maria di Savoia (1946)**

* Wounded by an Austrian grenade and healed (Rev. 13:3)
** Reigned only 34 days, "a little while" (Rev. 17:10)

The blasphemous names: Emanuele, Giuseppe, Giovanni

Emanuele: “God Is With Us”
Giuseppe: “God Will Add, Increase”
Giovanni: “God Is Gracious”

Horns = kings (Rev. 17:12)

Ten German Horn-kings
1. Frederick William III (1797–1840)
2. Frederick William IV (1840–1861)
3. William I (1861–1888)
4. Frederick III (1888)
5. Wilhelm II (1888–1918)
6. Friedrich Ebert (1918–1925)
7. Hans Luther (1925)
8. Walter Simons (1925)
9. Paul von Hindenburg (1925–1934)
10. Adolf Hitler (1934–1945)*

*Whose holocaust lasted 42 months: 25 Nov. 1941–8 May 1945 (Rev. 13:5)

Revealing the "Antichrist"

“The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth [head] and is one of the seven [heads], and he goes to destruction (Rev. 17:11).”

“When [the two witnesses] have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them (Rev. 11:7).”

“Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who live on it worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed (Rev. 13:11-12).”

Beast-kingdom from the Earth (Rev. 13:11): the United Kingdom

Two UK Horn-kings (Rev. 13:11)
1. George VI (1936–1952)
2. Elizabeth II (1952–present)

Name of the Beast

The 6th letter of the Hebrew alphabet is “waw.” It has a numerical value of 6, like the Roman numeral “V” has a numerical value of 5 (Waw (letter) - Wikipedia). So 666 is literally “WWW.” This is the number of the beast-kingdom we are living in today, and it is also the name of the beast-kingdom (the World Wide Web/Information Age). It is the number of a man. One man from London invented the World Wide Web in 1989: his name is Tim Berners-Lee. He is not the antichrist. The antichrist will kill the two witnesses (Rev. 11:7).

“Number of the beast (Rev. 13:18)”
666 = WWW (Waw (letter) - Wikipedia)

“Mark of the beast (Rev. 13:16)” = smartphones
Mark = thing carved, sculpture, or graven work (G5480 - charagma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv))

“Image of the beast (Rev. 13:14)” = Sophia the Robot (

)
Image = a likeness, i.e. (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance:—image (G1504 - eikōn - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv))

1946: Mobile Telephone Service
1948: Manchester Baby
1949: Manchester Mark 1
1950: Diners’ Club
1951: Ferranti Mark 1
1958: Visa
1966: Mastercard
1974: Internet
1975: Microsoft
1976: Apple
1984: Apple Macintosh
1985: Discover Card
1989: WORLD WIDE WEB (WWW) = NAME OF THE BEAST FROM THE EARTH (Rev. 13:17)
1990: Nexus
1991: SIM card
1992: Treaty on Open Skies
1993: World Wide Web put into the public domain by the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN)
1994: Amazon
1995: eBay
1996: SMARTPHONES = MARK OF THE BEAST FROM THE EARTH (Rev. 13:16)
1997: Mobile commerce
1998: Google
1999: PayPal
2000: LimeWire
2001: Patriot Act
2002: Friendster
2003: LinkedIn
2004: Facebook
2006: Twitter
2007: Apple iPhone
2009: Bitcoin
2010: Instagram
2011: Apple Siri
2012: Huawei P1
2013: Google Pixel
2014: Amazon Alexa
2016: SOPHIA THE ROBOT = IMAGE OF THE BEAST FROM THE EARTH (Rev. 13:14)
2017: Sep. 23 Sign of the Son of Man (

) (Rev. 12:1–2)

“And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name (Rev. 13:16-17).”

High-speed broadband to be legal right for UK homes and businesses (High-speed broadband to be legal right for UK homes and businesses)

“Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, ‘If anyone [1.] worships the beast [the World Wide Web/Information Age] AND [2.] his image [social, humanoid robots], AND [3.] receives a mark [smartphone] on his forehead [figuratively, as a god] OR on his hand [literally, as an assistant], he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus (Rev. 14:9-12).’”

 

[Super Kal]

well, that's the first time i've ever seen someone claim the mark of the beast is the smartphone...

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, my chart destroys historistism. Which so far, you have neither listed the events in sequence that precede Jesus's Second Coming. Nor copied and pasted any historist chart doing so - from other historists. Jerry, you are missing in action.

Doug, all of your arguments stem from dispensationalism so why are you surprised that my arguments are about exposing dispensationalism? If your doctrines were preterists my arguments would be against preterism.

Now the prophesies that God would sow both houses in the wilderness and redeem them there before they are gathered in Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; Hosea 2:14-23 establishes that the Church was ordained as the vehicle of their redemption. Matthew 13:24-30 affirms this. But you hold the dispensationalist view that God had not ordained the Church and that “Jews currently don't believe in Jesus, but will turn to Jesus in the middle part of the seven years,” which insinuates that Christ has not been mediating for the Jews since the first advent. It insinuates that God has a separate time for mediation for Jews, 3 1/2 years prior to the age to come. That's two separate mediations just like dispensationalism. If it quacks like a duck…

As to your chart, you still haven’t surmounted that the woman in Revelation 12 is seen in heaven at the time the man child, Christ, is caught up to heaven, which is a first advent phenomenon. Here we have the woman cared for in the wilderness just and prophesied in Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23. And the casting down of Satan is upheld as a first advent phenomenon in Luke 10:18, and the illustration of the woman in heaven is identified by Ephesian 2:6, and the Church depicted as a betrothed woman in 2 Corinthians 11:2. All of which affirms that Revelation 12 illustrates phenomena commencing with the first advent.

As to the woman of Revelation 12, Christ interpreted the woman for us:

Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Matthew 12:48-50)​

The true Israel that bore Christ, figuratively, could not be the Jews appointed to reject him, but the elect of Israel, and they were the Church, inasmuch as Christ, and those who followed him and spread the Gospel, were Israelites. So, it was the Church that mothered Christ, in the Biblical sense.

All of this makes your chart pretty useless in determining the events of Christ’s return advent, Doug.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, all of your arguments stem from dispensationalism so why are you surprised that my arguments are about exposing dispensationalism? If your doctrines were preterists my arguments would be against preterism.

Now the prophesies that God would sow both houses in the wilderness and redeem them there before they are gathered in Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; Hosea 2:14-23 establishes that the Church was ordained as the vehicle of their redemption. Matthew 13:24-30 affirms this. But you hold the dispensationalist view that God had not ordained the Church and that “Jews currently don't believe in Jesus, but will turn to Jesus in the middle part of the seven years,” which insinuates that Christ has not been mediating for the Jews since the first advent. It insinuates that God has a separate time for mediation for Jews, 3 1/2 years prior to the age to come. That's two separate mediations just like dispensationalism. If it quacks like a duck…

As to your chart, you still haven’t surmounted that the woman in Revelation 12 is seen in heaven at the time the man child, Christ, is caught up to heaven, which is a first advent phenomenon. Here we have the woman cared for in the wilderness just and prophesied in Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23. And the casting down of Satan is upheld as a first advent phenomenon in Luke 10:18, and the illustration of the woman in heaven is identified by Ephesian 2:6, and the Church depicted as a betrothed woman in 2 Corinthians 11:2. All of which affirms that Revelation 12 illustrates phenomena commencing with the first advent.

As to the woman of Revelation 12, Christ interpreted the woman for us:

Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Matthew 12:48-50)​

The true Israel that bore Christ, figuratively, could not be the Jews appointed to reject him, but the elect of Israel, and they were the Church, inasmuch as Christ, and those who followed him and spread the Gospel, were Israelites. So, it was the Church that mothered Christ, in the Biblical sense.

All of this makes your chart pretty useless in determining the events of Christ’s return advent, Doug.

Jerry, what do you do with these two verses... It seems to me that these two verses make my view of Revelation 12 that the woman is Israel, correct and your's that the woman is the church, incorrect.

The Jews, Israel, turn to Jesus for salvation in the middle of the 7 years, after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Jerry, the fullness of the Gentiles come in - is when the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 has taken place. As a historist, you don't believe that event has already happened do you?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, what do you do with these two verses... It seems to me that these two verses make my view of Revelation 12 that the woman is Israel, correct and your's that the woman is the church, incorrect.

The Jews, Israel, turn to Jesus for salvation in the middle of the 7 years, after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Jerry, the fullness of the Gentiles come in - is when the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 has taken place. As a historist, you don't believe that event has already happened do you?

Doug, you continue to make dispensationalist’s proof text arguments. And you wonder why I perceive you as a dispensationalist.

First of all, the text says “blindness in part is happened to Israel.” That was ordained.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. (Psalms 118:22-23)​

If you were really reading the scriptures I posted you might have a clue here. The part that was blinded were the shepherds and their devotees, those destined to be lost (Romans 9:6), which is what Ezekiel wrote about below. (That is why they can’t represent the woman in Revelation 12.)

And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? (Ezekiel 34:1-2)​

Ezekiel 34 is a first advent phenomenon. The part that wasn’t blinded was sown in the world and redeemed through the ordained Church, which is affirmed in the scriptures already provided. In Romans 11:25, Paul cites Genesis 48.

And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn. And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head. And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (Genesis 48:14-19)​

Ephriam must become a multitude of nations when sown in the world before Christ returns; they already have. Such evidence discredits your dispensationalist doctrines. The fulness of the Gentiles has already been accomplished so when Christ returns all of Israel is saved in the sense probation closes, not in the sense dispensationalism views it whatsoever.

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. (Matthew 25:1-12)​

That's probation closing.

 

[Douggg]

Ephriam must become a multitude of nations when sown in the world before Christ returns; they already have. Such evidence discredits your dispensationalist doctrines. The fulness of the Gentiles has already been accomplished so when Christ returns all of Israel is saved in the sense probation closes, not in the sense dispensationalism views it whatsoever.

Jerry, the context of Romans 11 is that the fullness of the Gentiles come in - is speaking about the Gentiles in relationship with Jesus. Not the number of nations.

The event that completes the mission of the church, the collective body of Christ, mostly Gentiles because Israel rejected Jesus, is the rapture/resurrection.

Then after the rapture/resurrection event, with the church gone from the world, the Jews, Israel, will be saved during the time of the great tribulation - embracing Jesus as the messiah and their savior, saved by grace from their sins *.

Currently only about 4% of Israel embrace Jesus as the messiah and savior from their sins.

So all Israel has definitely not been saved yet.
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*which contradicts the dispensationalist view that the church age, the age of grace, ends with the rapture of the church. The rapture of the church doesn't change that the everlasting gospel of salvation - is by grace, not by works.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, the context of Romans 11 is that the fullness of the Gentiles come in - is speaking about the Gentiles in relationship with Jesus. Not the number of nations.

The event that completes the mission of the church, the collective body of Christ, mostly Gentiles because Israel rejected Jesus, is the rapture/resurrection.

Then after the rapture/resurrection event, with the church gone from the world, the Jews, Israel, will be saved during the time of the great tribulation - embracing Jesus as the messiah and their savior, saved by grace from their sins *.

Currently only about 4% of Israel embrace Jesus as the messiah and savior from their sins.

So all Israel has definitely not been saved yet.
______________________________________________________

*which contradicts the dispensationalist view that the church age, the age of grace, ends with the rapture of the church. The rapture of the church doesn't change that the everlasting gospel of salvation - is by grace, not by works.

Doug, there is little continuity between your dispensationalist’s views and the OT, not unlike preterism. Your dispensationalist’s views can’t surmount the prophecies that all the major prophets and some minor wrote about the sowing of both houses in the world and their redemption before they are gathered (Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23.) Furthermore, Christ affirms this in Matthew 13:24-30. These prophecies establish the Church as the vehicle to restore both houses of Israel under Christ’s mediation commencing with the first advent, and that their salvation is not delayed as your dispensationalist doctrines assert. If their salvation is not delayed then your dispensationalist doctrines on Romans 11 are relegated to the fire of 2 Corinthians 3:15.

Your refusal to answer to the prophecies, such as Ephriam becoming a multitude of nations, and your failure to recognize that Paul isn’t merely pulling the phrase “the fulness of the Gentiles," out of the air relegates your charts to oblivion.

As for Roman 11:26, Christ’s return ends probation for the Church, which includes Gentiles that are joined to Israel. The number of the elect of Israel is complete at the end of probation and that is the significance of Paul’s witness that all of Israel will be saved. As previously cited, the Gentiles who are saved are joined to Israel as adopted sons and daughters according to Isaiah 14, which in itself discredits your dispensationalist doctrine that the Church and Israel are two separate mediations.

For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors. (Isaiah 14:1-2)​

As for your percentile of Israelites that embrace Christ, surely you jest, right? Have you not read Hosea?

Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned. (Hosea 7:8)​

Again, this alone discredits your dispensationalist doctrines. God has been saving the descendants of Jacob for 2000 years even as the world looked upon them as Gentiles. There is simply no way of discerning who is a descendant of Jacob today for the most part, even as God knows. As Jacob prophesied, Ephriam would become a multitude of nations, considered Gentile nations by the world in the time of the end. As descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, to them belong the prophecies of being gathered and returned to “their” land at Christ’s appearing. That’s how he saves Israel and fulfills that Abraham becomes the father of many nations.

As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. (Genesis 17:4)​

All in all, your dispensationalist doctrines are wanting when it comes to continuity with the OT.