Scriptural Christianity

[Clare73]

Why should those who love well in accordance with what God has commanded be considered to have rejected Jesus, who is the embodiment of that love? Did God lead those Jews astray?

Do you not know that Orthodox Jews of today reject Jesus Christ as Messiah and do not believe in and trust on his atoning sacrifice for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:1-11), and therefore, according to Jesus, are condemned already (John 3:18) and remain under God's wrath (John 3:36)?

Unless you maintain that Jesus got it wrong when he stated such.

 

[Soyeong]

Do you not know that Orthodox Jews of today reject Jesus Christ as Messiah and do not believe in and trust on his atoning sacrifice for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:1-11), and therefore, according to Jesus, are condemned already (John 3:18) and remain under God's wrath (John 3:36)?

Unless you maintain that Jesus got it wrong when he stated such.

The Son is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through living in obedience to the Torah, so if an Orthodox Jew believes in expressing the nature of God through their obedience to the Torah, then why should we consider the way that they live to not be expressing belief in the Son?

 

[timothyu]

We can reject the Messiah but not the Holy Spirit which is the spirit proclaimed in Jesus' 2nd commandment, one of loving neighbour (all as self). Those who reject that attitude have no place in the Kingdom as they are rejecting the Father's kingdom/governance.

 

[Clare73]

The Son is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through living in obedience to the Torah, so if an Orthodox Jew believes in expressing the nature of God through their obedience to the Torah, then why should we consider the way that they live to not be expressing belief in the Son?

They reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin. That is not belief in Jesus Christ, and they die in their sin.

And then. . .you maintain that rejecting Jesus Christ is belief in Jesus Christ,
that Jesus got it wrong in John 3:18.
You have boot-strpped yourself into more self-evident absurdity and contradiction than I care to engage.

 

[Soyeong]

Yep. . .you maintain that rejecting Jesus Christ is belief in Jesus Christ,
that Jesus got it wrong in John 3:18.

That's more absurdity and self-evident contradiction than I care to be involved with.

I said nothing about Jesus getting it wrong in John 3:18 or about rejecting Jesus Christ being belief in him. In John 3:18, whoever believes in the Son will not be condemned, yet you condemn those who live in a way that expresses belief in the Son through expressing His nature, so you are accusing me of what you are guilty of doing.

 

[Clare73]

I said nothing about Jesus getting it wrong in John 3:18 or about rejecting Jesus Christ being belief in him. In John 3:18, whoever believes in the Son will not be condemned, yet you condemn those who live in a way that expresses belief in the Son through expressing His nature, so as usual you accuse me of what you are guilty of doing.

And belief in and trust on his sacrifice for the remission of their sin and salvation from God's judgment?

More contra-NT absurdity. . .too ridiculous to take seriously.

 

[Soyeong]

And belief in and trust on his sacrifice for the remission of their sin and salvation from God's judgment?

Indeed, if someone is living in a way that expresses this belief, then why do you not consider them to be believing it?

 

[Clare73]

Indeed, if someone is living in a way that expresses this belief, then why do you not consider them to be believing it?

You have boot-strapped rejecting Christ into faith in Christ and his atoning sacrifice.

Too contra-NT and ridiculous to take seriously. . .

 

[Soyeong]

You have boot-strapped rejecting Christ into faith in Christ and his atoning sacrifice.

Too contra-NT and ridiculous to take seriously. . .

You continue to accuse me of what you are guilty of doing.

Another way of looking at it is, to you grant that Abraham had faith in Christ? If so, then why you think that those who are children of Abraham who do the same works as him and are of the same faith as him do not have faith in Christ?

 

[St_Worm2]

We can reject the Messiah but not the Holy Spirit which is the spirit proclaimed in Jesus' 2nd commandment, one of loving neighbour (all as self). Those who reject that attitude have no place in the Kingdom as they are rejecting the Father's kingdom/governance.

Hello Timothy, you said, "we can reject the Messiah, but not the Holy Spirit". Please tell us what you mean.

Question, how can someone who rejects the Savior be indwelt by the Holy Spirit

Also, what do you mean, exactly, when you say that the God the Holy Spirit is the "spirit" behind the OT/NT command to love neighbor as self?

Finally, the Bible tells us plainly that those who reject the Messiah (as Savior and Lord) cannot even see the Kingdom of God, much less enter into it .. John 3:3, 5, but you say otherwise, that the inability of those who cannot enter into the Kingdom of God is due to their rejection of a certain "attitude".

Please elaborate.

Thank you!

--David

 

[fhansen]

And those who have loved well and reject Jesus (as in Orthodox Jews) will find that love of no avail to them.

Well, if they love as He does that could only mean that they haven't rejected Him-as He's the source of agape. Otherwise their love is not so "well", not of Him, just the same as the pagans (Matt 5:47).

 

[timothyu]

Thank you!

To be in the Kingdom you need to be of the Kingdom. We were plainly told to put the will of God before our own, thus loving all as self. That is not the way of the flesh but of the spirit. That is life in the Kingdom.

Matthew 12:31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

 

[Clare73]

Well, if they love as He does that could only mean that they haven't rejected Him-as He's the source of agape. Otherwise
their love is not so "well", not of Him, just the same as the pagans (Matt 5:47).

Agreed. . .and they die in their sin.

 

[Clare73]

You have boot-strapped rejecting Christ into faith in Christ and his atoning sacrifice.

Too contra-NT and ridiculous to take seriously. . .

You continue to accuse me of what you are guilty of doing.

Another way of looking at it is, to you grant that Abraham had faith in Christ? If so, then
why you think that those who are children of Abraham who do the same works as him and are of the same faith as him do not have faith in Christ?

What matters is the NT way of looking at it; i.e., John 3:18, John 3:36; Luke 10:16.

 

[Soyeong]

What matters is the NT way of looking at it; i.e., John 3:18, John 3:36; Luke 10:16.

You excel at being able to quote verses that support believing in the Son, but you still continue to avoid explaining how it makes sense to you to think that those who live in a way that expresses belief in the Son do not believe in the Son. The Son is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through living in sinless obedience to the Torah, and so the way that we live expresses what we be believe to be true about God's nature, so for example, when we do what is righteous in obedience to the Torah, we are expressing the belief that God is righteous, or in other words we are believing in him, which is why there are many verses in the Bible that connect our belief in God with our obedience to His commandments. In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, and in John 14:6, the Son is the truth made flesh, so why do you not consider someone who is believing in the truth by obeying the Torah to not be believing in the Son?

 

[fhansen]

Agreed. . .and they die in their sin.

and unless a Christian loves well, well enough to overcome the kinds of grievous sins that scripture tell us will prevent us from entering heaven, then they will die in their sins too.

 

[Clare73]

You have boot-strapped rejecting Christ into faith in Christ and his atoning sacrifice.

Too contra-NT and ridiculous to take seriously. . .

You excel at being able to quote verses that support believing in the Son, but
you still continue to avoid explaining how it makes sense to you

That the NT teaches believing in the Son is necessary for salvation is all I need to know to then believe it.
'Tis not mine to "make sense" of the NT, 'tis mine to take it at his word, receive it and believe it.

The NT could not be any more clear in Luke 10:16; John 3:18, John 3:36.
You argue against them, I take them at their word, receive them and believe them.

It's not complicated.
"he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)
Orthodox Jews reject Jesus as Messiah, and do not trust on his atoning sacrifice for the remission of their sin.

Gee, I wonder what Jesus meant when he stated Luke 10:16. . .hmmm. . .let's see now. . .it certainly can't mean what it states, because that disagrees with my theology. . .it must mean what my theology means. . .yeah, that's it!. . .rejecting Jesus is Biblical talk for faith in Jesus. . .Wow! the Holy Spirit has shown me the "mystery of Christ!"

 

[Clare73]

and unless a Christian loves well, well enough to overcome the kinds of grievous sins that scripture tell us will prevent us from entering heaven, then they will die in their sins too.

The NT couldn't be any more clear that the eternal destiny of the born again (Christian) is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14).

Your job is to believe it.

 

[Soyeong]

'Tis not mine to "make sense" of the NT, 'tis mine to take it at his word, receive it and believe it.

The NT could not be any more clear in Luke 10:16; John 3:18, John 3:36.
You argue against them, I take them at their word, receive them and believe them.

It's not complicated.
"he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)

Gee, I wonder what Jesus meant when he stated such. . .hmmm. . .let's see now. . .it certainly can't mean what it states, because that disagrees with my theology. . .it must mean what my theology means. . .yeah, that's it!. . .rejecting Jesus is Biblical talk for faith in Jesus. . .Wow! the Holy Spirit has shown me the "mystery of Christ!"

You continue to accuse me of what you are guilty of doing.

Unlike you, I completely agree Luke 10:16, John 3:18, and John 3:36. They say that those who believe in the Son will not perish, but will have eternal life, yet you are full of condemnation for those who believe in the Son, so there is no sense in you arguing against the verses that you are citing. Yes, Jesus stated that those who believe in Him will not perish and he meant that, so you should not disagree with him just because he disagreed with your theology, but rather you should allow what he said to inform your theology. Rejecting Jesus is not biblical talk for faith in Jesus and the Holy Spirit has not shown you any such mystery of Christ.

 

[fhansen]

The NT couldn't be any more clear that the eternal destiny of the born again (Christian) is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14).

Your job is to believe it.

My job is to love God with my whole heart soul mind and strength and my neighbor as myself. God's job is to help me do just that as I turn to him in faith. Knowledge and love of God is salvation.