What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Mark Quayle]

Sometimes when I read the Bible I stop and ask a few questions that I look for answer to. Like what is it that author is trying to explain? And exacly what is it that he says and what is it that he doesn't say? It's a good way to investigate Scripture. I know we can't read the Bible like we haven't been influenced by anything, but there is a difference between trying to read the Bible free of preconceived ideas and trying to fit things in like total depravity and limited atonement.

You have a point.

 

[QvQ]

I don't know. If there are people out there we are not to pray for. How do I know who they are?

"Thy will be done." That is the prayer

Christ asked for the cup to pass from Him. Sometimes I add a few words of like import but mostly, Thy will be done.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, it's not. It's both God's will and our libertarian (I hope I use that word correct) free will.

Thank you. And does that include when we disobey?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The problem? When I meet Mr. B, he may have a message to me from God. Then it's I by free will who decides if I will listen or not. Sure God could control the situation, making me accept the message, but He doesn't. So God may lead me to Mr. B, then it's up to my libertarian free will what I'll do with the message. So it's both God's will and our libertarian free will.

No doubt. Yet every choice we make, which I agree we make by our libertarian free will, we make according to our inclinations, and all other influences, which don't come to us "in a vacuum".

We choose what we want to choose, if only for that moment. And God has caused all things. (All means all there, haha).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Heresy? That's quite a strong word.

It does not deny omnipotence, but your version of omnipotence. As far as I understand the word anyhow.

I didn't call it heresy, but said it admits something that to me is heresy. And I meant you no insult. I just don't understand a reasoning that says uncaused decisions are possible in a creature. There are too many Biblical definitions of God (and other things) that to my thinking are pretty obviously being denied there.

 

[zoidar]

Thank you. And does that include when we disobey?

No, that's only our will. God always want us to obey.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No that's only our will. God always want us to obey.

So you have God only doing the things like making good out of bad, but the bad things happening outside of his will. I'm pretty sure you heard Joseph's interpretation of events, no? "You indeed intended it for evil, but God intended it for good."

 

[John Mullally]

I give up. . .how?

Obviously pray for all men without exception for the reasons given In 1 Timothy 2:1-6.

 

[zoidar]

So you have God only doing the things like making good out of bad, but the bad things happening outside of his will. I'm pretty sure you heard Joseph's interpretation of events, no? "You indeed intended it for evil, but God intended it for good."

"You planned evil against me, God planned it for good." In other words, God planned for a good outcome of the evil they had planned. It's not like God planned for them to do evil, that was their libetarian free will. That is how I see it.

 

[John Mullally]

So you have God only doing the things like making good out of bad, but the bad things happening outside of his will. I'm pretty sure you heard Joseph's interpretation of events, no? "You indeed intended it for evil, but God intended it for good."

Adams sin opened the door for Satan to influence men to the point where Jesus called him the god of this world. God had to do more than control initial circumstances (I.e. first cause) - otherwise no one would be saved. Yet God’s influence is limited by man’s free will. The thousands of directives in the Bible are not there for show, they are indicative of the importance of man’s free will. God will not do for man what He commands men to do anymore than a good teacher would do for their students.

 

[Mark Quayle]

"You planned evil against me, God planned it for good." In other words, God planned for a good outcome of the evil they had planned. It's not like God planned for them to do evil, that was their libetarian free will. That is how I see it.

That's not what it says. You should read it like any other passage, no? Not unintelligently, but without doctrinal preconceptions like total depravity and limited atonement and free will?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Adams sin opened the door for Satan to influence men to the point where Jesus called him the god of this world. God had to do more than control initial circumstances (I.e. first cause) - otherwise no one would be saved. Yet God’s influence is limited by man’s free will. The thousands of directives in the Bible are not there for show, they are indicative of the importance of man’s free will. God will not do for man what He commands men to do anymore than a good teacher would do for their students.

As you may have noticed, I don't hold to the notion that God only controlled initial circumstances. I use the fact that he did, to show what logically follows shows he intended all that follows. But yes, he also continues to actively work. Further, for him to begin all things, including time, means he who is outside time doesn't see an initial act to begin time and all that is 'within' it as any different from upholding time and all that is 'within' it.

So, also, growing in the Lord. I don't think the initial act we refer to as Salvation is a different work from the continued growth of the believer. We are saved by grace and grow in grace. God having created and caused all things, does not deny real choice; Monergism, and I mean, monergism for both Salvation and growth, which are both God's work in us, does not deny obedience and willful deeds.

Synergism claims our cooperation adds to, increases, God's work. What you are saying gives the impression that when we are as grown as we are going to be, we have some real substance in and of ourselves, that adds to God. But I see Scripture, life and reasoning all teaching us that we are of no value apart from God. One with Christ is not like something with velcro or a magnet stuck to the fridge. There is no such thing as God does his part and we do ours. God does the whole business, and so we are driven to walk with him. And again, we choose to do so, because of who we have become in Christ.

 

[zoidar]

That's not what it says. You should read it like any other passage, no? Not unintelligently, but without doctrinal preconceptions like total depravity and limited atonement and free will?

Yes, it should be read just like any other passage. What Bible do you use? Some Bibles use like you say: "intended" where other Bibles use other words. It's a bit of a translation issue. Here is from the Pulpit commentary:

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good (literally, and ye were thinking or meditating evil against me; Elohim was thinking or meditating for good, i.e. that what you did should be for good), to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive (vide Genesis 45:5 (NAS).​

That is the theme of the Bible that God uses our evil to accomplish what is good, His purposes. Ok, let's be intelligent about it. Does it say anything about that Joseph's brother chose by libertarian free will do plan evil against Joseph? Of course not! Does it say God planned for the brothers to do evil against Joseph? No, it does not say. What does it say then?

It says that the brothers were thinking/meditating an evil plan against Joseph. God on the other hand was thinking it/meditating it (their evil plan) for a good cause. So it doesn't say that God planned their act of evil. Neither does it say He didn't. It is not answering that question.

 

[John Mullally]

Synergism claims our cooperation adds to, increases, God's work.

Your words.

What you are saying gives the impression that when we are as grown as we are going to be, we have some real substance in and of ourselves, that adds to God.

Again your assessment If a man grabs a life preserver tossed to him he has nothing to glory in.

But I see Scripture, life and reasoning all teaching us that we are of no value apart from God. One with Christ is not like something with velcro or a magnet stuck to the fridge

No disagreement.

There is no such thing as God does his part and we do ours. God does the whole business, and so we are driven to walk with him. And again, we choose to do so, because of who we have become in Christ.

Jesus said that a man must be willing to give up his life for Christs sake and the Gospel to gain eternal life. God will not make that decision- you have to count the cost. You are not in Christ until you make that decision to give your life.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your words.

So give me your words, that don't mean the same thing.

Again your assessment If a man grabs a life preserver tossed to him he has nothing to glory in.

What are you saying, there? Did you misspeak?

Whatever, a dead man can't reach for a life preserver.

No disagreement.

Yet you do promote the notion that what we do adds to what God does, to cause and effect. I claim God does the effect, what we do is a result, and is IN what he does. We have no [truly] spontaneous ability, separate from God's causation.

Jesus said that a man must be willing to give up his life for Christs sake and the Gospel to gain eternal life. God will not make that decision- you have to count the cost. You are not in Christ until you make that decision to give your life.

God has already set you on the course to make that decision. God chose you and made you for that course. It will happen, or it won't happen. When we choose (and yes, again, we DO choose) we can only choose him if God changes our spiritual death to life, or we are unable (dead) to choose Christ.

 

[zoidar]

Whatever, a dead man can't reach for a life preserver.

The Bible says everywhere we are to repent. If a "dead man" couldn't repent, I see no meaning to tell him to repent. We are not talking about a corpse here...

Are we to believe he must first be alive to be able to repent, so he will be ... even more alive? An alive man is already saved, and doesn't need to repent to be saved

Again W. Lane Craig. 6 minutes.

"The idea that we are dead in trespasses and sins means we our under condemnation and the wrath of God. We are destined for hell. We are not saved..."

 

[QvQ]

God is as obvious as gravity. How can any person state that a person has "free will" when speaking of gravity or breathing air?
A person is dead before he believes. Salvation is becoming aware of the existence of God. That doesn't mean that God only exists or the laws of God only apply when a person likes God, or accepts God or repents. God does not come into existence when a person believes or accepts God. God and gravity do not requires a person's approval, acceptance, love or even that person's existence.
Falling off a roof and breaking a leg, a person will repent of their sins against the laws of gravity whether a person is "dead or alive" to presence and laws of Gravity.
So a person discovers gravity or air. How is that an act of Free will. And a person, once aware of gravity, cannot claim that gravity does not exist.
This thread is convincing me of 5 point Calvinism. I didn't know exactly what it meant until I came to this thread, trying to discover what denomination I am besides Puritan. Great thread!

 

[zoidar]

God is as obvious as gravity. How can any person state that a person has "free will" when speaking of gravity or breathing air?
A person is dead before he believes. Salvation is becoming aware of the existence of God. That doesn't mean that God only exists or the laws of God only apply when a person likes God, or accepts God or repents. God does not come into existence when a person believes or accepts God. God and gravity do not requires a person's approval, acceptance, love or even that person's existence.
Falling off a roof and breaking a leg, a person will repent of their sins against the laws of gravity whether a person is "dead or alive" to presence and laws of Gravity.
So a person discovers gravity or air. How is that an act of Free will. And a person, once aware of gravity, cannot claim that gravity does not exist.
This thread is convincing me of 5 point Calvinism. I didn't know exactly what it meant until I came to this thread, trying to discover what denomination I am besides Puritan. Great thread!

To compare repentance to gravity is quite something, but I'm happy you enjoy the thread.

 

[QvQ]

To compare repentance to gravity is quite something, but I'm happy you enjoy the thread.

Repentance, a man can confess, denounce, regret, feel remorse for his sins, however, unless a man changes, he is just blowing smoke.
Repentance requires a change.
Repentance is analogous to Newton, who became aware of gravity. It was an insight, not an act of will Newton was always subject to the laws of gravity but that insight caused him to see "gravity" in an entirely new light. Newton was compelled to investigate this "force" whereby Newton gained knowledge, not only the existence of gravity, but the laws of gravity. The apple hitting Newton on the head, Newton "saw the light."
God and man is a relationship. That relationship exists whether man is aware of it or not.
A man who becomes aware of God, as Newton became aware of gravity, is compelled to discover the laws of that Being.
The Bible is the Book whereby God speaks to man.
Repenting ignorance of gravity, through Newton's insight and recording the laws of gravity, man can fly.
Repenting of ignorance of God and becoming aware of, through the Bible, the laws of God, man can gain a relationship with God and eternal life. A man can understand his past errors (repent).
Understanding God, being aware or not aware of God is not an act of man's will.
Man is a conscious being. He is either aware or not aware. What he is aware of or can do about what he is aware of is very limited. Man has imagination, what worlds he would create. He mostly imagines himself as having free will when the very least attempt to exercise his free will would speedily convince him otherwise.
Free will is a fantasy without corresponding reality.

 

[zoidar]

Repentance, a man can confess, denounce, regret, feel remorse for his sins, however, unless a man changes, he is just blowing smoke.
Repentance requires a change.
Repentance is analogous to Newton, who became aware of gravity. It was an insight, not an act of will Newton was always subject to the laws of gravity but that insight caused him to see "gravity" in an entirely new light. Newton was compelled to investigate this "force" whereby Newton gained knowledge, not only the existence of gravity, but the laws of gravity.
God and man is a relationship. That relationship exists whether man is aware of it or not.
A man who becomes aware of God, as Newton became aware of gravity, is compelled to discover the laws of that Being.
The Bible is the Book whereby God speaks to man.
Repenting ignorance of gravity, through Newton's insight and recording the laws of gravity, man can fly.
Repenting of ignorance of God and becoming aware of, through the Bible, the laws of God, man can gain a relationship with God and eternal life. A man can change.

A man needs to understand he needs God to repent, yes! That happens through "prevenient grace". But even he understands he needs God, he is still dead in sins. First as he repents God saves him, and he is made alive through receiving the Holy Spirit.