What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Mark Quayle]

It's rather ironic in this you complain about my characterization of your position, while making a charge that I haven't intimated in any way.

What, exactly, are you attempting to accuse me of by saying I "assume a primacy to human thought?" When have I said anything to imply such a thing, and primacy in comparison to what exactly?

Just from what I have heard from you, I can assume (admittedly I can be mistaken) that you think human language is capable of fully describing a concept, and that human concepts are fully descriptive of reality (or very nearly so). Your point of view, your worldview, includes the assumption that humans have some real value apart from God's use and assessment of them.

The fact that you suppose humans to be capable of real, uncaused, choice is perhaps the most obvious in explaining what I mean. You raise humanity to the level of God, who is the ONLY one who has uncaused choice. You may protest that it is 'limited' uncaused choice, or some other substitute for the same notion, but it is still the same thing —a little uncaused is a lot uncaused— the position descends from hubris; it is a declaration of humanocentric self-determination, not to mention that it is self-contradictory and unBiblical.

 

[John Mullally]

No. Apparently I haven't told you, or you haven't been listening. Human will is one of many tools God uses to accomplish his will. God works through means. Human choice is real, with real, even eternal, consequences.

My turn: Can chance determine anything? Yes or no.

God can use human will and still retain the position of possessing the only effective will in the univers as all can be scripted by God. I have been listening to you and this is why I asked.

I have used random number generators (I.e.chance) in programming to arrive at solutions to problems. I believe God tests us with from our perspective appears as random circumstances.

Long ago when disciplining my children whom I love I did not accept lame circumstantial excuses because I was teaching responsibility. I don’t believe God scripts my kids or my responses to Him or each other. There are too many directives in the Bible to have everything scripted. Maybe this does not answer your question to your satisfaction.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I found this book "On Temptation and the Mortification of Sin in Believers" by John Owens.
I had time to read a bit of it. My first impression is temptation, Psalm 23: 4, the walk through the valley. but when I read further my understanding might change

Thanks for looking it up. I'm not sure it is the same book I meant, but if it is John Owen, it will build.

You say, "John Owens". Is that a typo, or the real author's name? Maybe a different book?

 

[QvQ]

You say, "John Owens". Is that a typo, or the real author's name? Maybe a different book?

John Owen (1616 – 24 August 1683)
I am further into the book now. It is good but slow reading. One of those that I read some and ponder some.
The book is about Temptation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Of course it's a problem to disobey God even for those that are already in enmity with God, but not anymore than it is a problem for us to sin in our lives. The Bible says Adam's sin was something else than our sins, it was the root sin, that brought sin into the world.

If Adam was already in enmity with God before the fall, it means he had a sinful nature before the fall. So in that case what would be the unique problem with Adam's sin? Even if he never disobeyed, we would still inherit sinfulness, and the world would look the same way it does today. So in that case I don't see the unique problem with Adam's sin.

The problem I see with Adam's sin is that it brought actual sinfulness into the world. Not that we were imputed Adam's guilt, a doctrine I doubt even to be true.

My question had to do only with the statement that it was not a problem.

But as to your further comments, I see no reason at all, anywhere in Scripture to guess that Adam was at enmity with God before the temptation, and many reasons to believe to the contrary. To me it is a bogus consideration.

"If Adam had not sinned" —do you mean to imply that if some descendent of him had sinned, then that part of humanity would have been 'infected' and the rest wouldn't, until one of them sinned, or something? Not sure what you are getting at there.

As for 'imputation', do you agree that Christ's righteousness is imputed to the regenerated?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hm, but the devil is evil. The fallen angels are evil, not because they transgress God's law. They are by nature evil. Through the fall evil became part of our nature. That is the reason we sin.

Not to disagree, but I think you will have a hard time showing a difference between their nature and their transgression. They only ever transgress, being ever at enmity with God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

John Owen (1616 – 24 August 1683)
I am further into the book now. It is good but slow reading. One of those that I read some and ponder some.
The book is about Temptation.

Yes, it is not easy reading, to understand what he is saying, often.

 

[Fervent]

Just from what I have heard from you, I can assume (admittedly I can be mistaken) that you think human language is capable of fully describing a concept, and that human concepts are fully descriptive of reality (or very nearly so). Your point of view, your worldview, includes the assumption that humans have some real value apart from God's use and assessment of them.

That is a massive assumption.

The fact that you suppose humans to be capable of real, uncaused, choice is perhaps the most obvious in explaining what I mean. You raise humanity to the level of God, who is the ONLY one who has uncaused choice. You may protest that it is 'limited' uncaused choice, or some other substitute for the same notion, but it is still the same thing —a little uncaused is a lot uncaused— the position descends from hubris; it is a declaration of humanocentric self-determination, not to mention that it is self-contradictory and unBiblical.

And here you are, as always, simply assuming the consequent. God is capable of providing humans with the opportunity for uncaused choice, you simply limit Him unnecessarily.

 

[QvQ]

Yes, it is not easy reading, to understand what he is saying, often.

The book reminded me that a while ago, I decided that instead of focusing on sin, I would focus closely on the virtues, which I listed as faith love hope charity chastity humility and patience.
To sin was the opposite, such as pride instead of humility. (if I had any humility, I would be proud of it, so had a bit of trouble with that one)
Staying in touch with God, Owen believes that is the goal.
Temptation, that is intriguing, the way Owen states it. That gives cause to ponder.

 

[John Mullally]

God desires all to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4.

 

[setst777]

However, none of the following alters the fact that God works in the believer both to will and to do. (Philippians 2:13)

God reveals to us in His Word, that He leads and guides us, to work out his will in us, but only as the believer is faithful to live by and walk in the Spirit by which God dwells in us, for many Christians will grieve, quench, insult, and resist the Spirit in them, which can lead to condemnation (Hebrews 10:26-30). That is why Christians, who are straddling the fence, should fear in tremble.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit

That is why we must fear and tremble.

Likewise, it does not alter the fact that until the rebirth and faith, one is condemned (Romans 5:18), and the rebirth depends on nothing but the pleasure and will of the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8).

According to God's Word, what gives us the rebirth (Spiritual Life) is the Spirit of Christ living in us.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

The pleasure of the Spirit is to give life to those who believe demonstrated in obedience, but this is only for the New Covenant. The OT believers did not have benefit of the pouring out of the Spirit on those who believe.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! (continuous) 38 He who believes (continuous) in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

The Holy Spirit only indwells and gives eternal life to those who believe, and only in the New Covenant in Christ Jesus, just as Lord Jesus explained to Nicodemus in response to his question, “How can these things be?”

Lord Jesus explanation to Nicodemus is in John 3:13-18. So you want to read what Jesus taught Nicodemus in response to his question. Then you will see how the Spirit indwells us to give us life.

John 4:13-14 (WEB)
13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks (continuous) of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

God's people are the redeemed, whose salvation is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5, Ephesians 1:4).

The Passages you listed teach us that the guarantee and promise is only for those who believe (a continuous believing) demonstrated in obedience. That is the Promise and Guarantee.

Hebrews 5:9 (NIV) 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Since the Promise is by Faith, then it is up to each individual to remain faithful to inherit the Promise of entering God’s eternal kingdom.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

However, he showed favoritism to Abraham by revealing himself to him and no one else at the time, and giving magnificent personal promises to him and his seed given to no one else at the time.

Then he did not treat Israel the same as all mankind.

God chose Abraham, just as he chose Israel, and just as he chose all of us, to carry out a special purpose, and NOT to make Abraham, or anyone else, believe.

God searches the hearts of all men and chooses someone (the faithful, and the wicked alike) to carry out special purposes according to God’s foreknowledge of that person.

Revelation 2:23 (WEB) Lord Jesus speaking 23 I will kill her children with Death, and all the assemblies will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

2 Chronicles 16:9 (NIV) 9 For the eyes of the Lord range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war.”

Psalm 33:18-19 (WEB) 18 Behold, Yahweh’s eye is on those who fear him, on those who hope in his loving kindness

Regarding "Romans 9:19-21," God forms for wrath or salvation based on how we respond to His grace offered. See: Romans 2:2-9; Jeremiah 18:1-10. Regarding Salvation, God shows no favoritism or partiality, but judges each person by how they respond to His grace:

See: Deuteronomy 10:17; 2 Chronicles 19:7; Jeremiah 18:1-10; Acts 10:34-35; Romans 2:5-11; Romans 10:10-13; Romans 11:30-32; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 3:23-25; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 1 Peter 1:17-19; 2 Peter 3:9; James 2:9).

Formation is at birth, before any response is made to anything (Romans 9:21).

That is not how “formed” is used in Romans 9:21. See: Jeremiah 18:1-10 and Romans 2:2-9. God forms or prepares for wrath those vessels who respond in disobedience to His grace, while those who respond in repentance and faith God forms or prepares for salvation. This pertains to both nations and individual persons. That is God's Word.

In "Romans 9:8-13," God chose not formed someone from birth to carry out His covenant through Isaac and Jacob, before they did anything good or bad. God, in His foreknowledge, already knew that Jacob would be faithful - their works of obedience to God being the fruit or evidence of their faith - that God foresaw before they were ever born.

Jeremiah 1:5-6 (WEB) 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew (Hebrew: yada, to know) you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Faith was a key factor in God continuing His covenant through whom the Messiah would come.

God worked His covenant through these persons within the seed of Abraham because God foresaw their faith, that they would remain in Him by faith. And God accredited righteousness to their account in anticipation of the redemption that was to come in Christ Jesus by the NT Gospel.

No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him. (John 6:65)
(Does he enable all?)

The Word and the conviction of the Spirit is how God invites, enables, and draws us to receive the salvation He offers.

Many will resist and refuse the drawing and illuminating of the Word and Spirit, or will fall away at a future time, just as the Scriptures teach throughout.

Matthew 22:3 (WEB) 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they refused to come.

Acts 7:51-52 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit!

John 3:18 (WEB) 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (WEB) 10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Romans 10:21 (WEB) 21 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary (obstinate) people.” [Isaiah 65:2]

All that the Father gives me will come to me. (John 6:37)
(None of them fail to come.)

The will of the Father is the give to the Son those who believe in the Son. That is the Gospel (John 3:16; John 6:40).

John 6:40 (WEB) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me. (John 6:39)
(Do all men come?)

Those who believe in the Son will come to the Son. Those who do not believe in the Son will not come to the Son to have life.

Those who believe (continuous) in Him will not be turned away. That is God’s promise (John 3:16; John 6:37-40).

God is not bifurcated, he is one. . .his will and his pleasure (intent) are one and the same.
He saves all whom he wills to save; i.e., all whom he gives to Jesus, which is not all men.

In God’s Word, we learn that God’s desire and good pleasure is that all people be saved, but God’s will is to save only those who will believe.

Scripture teaches us that the choice is still each persons' to resist the Spirit and refuse the invitation, call, or drawing, by the Spirit and the Word, to be saved.

Many people desire to live in darkness, and do not want their darkness to be exposed. But those who repent of the darkness and seek the light of God salvation will come to Lord Jesus because of the Gospel so they may be saved.

Romans 11:32 (WEB) 32 For God has bound all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

John 6:40 (WEB) This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:40 (WEB) This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

• The ransom was paid for all, not some (1 Timothy 2:6),
• God desires all to be saved, not some (1 Timothy 2:3-4),
• God’s intention is to have mercy on all, not some (Romans 11:32).
• God’s will is to save those who believe in His Son (John 3:16; John 6:40)
• We appropriate that gracious gift of salvation to ourselves by faith (John 3:16)
• Many will resist the Spirit and Word and be lost (Matthew 22:8-9; Acts 7:51-52)

Of those who do believe, many will fall away (Matthew 24:10; 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:12)

The Promise is for those who believe and remain faithful to the end.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God can use human will and still retain the position of possessing the only effective will in the univers as all can be scripted by God. I have been listening and this is why I asked.

I have used random number generators in programming to arrive at solutions to problems. I believe God tests us with from our perspective appears as random circumstances.

Long ago when disciplining my children whom I love I did not accept lame circumstantial excuses. Maybe this does not answer your question to your satisfaction.

Is this your claim? Or are you claiming it is one of Calvinism's claims? Or what?

If human choice is real, it is effective, whether or not it also fits perfectly God's choice. Humans always choose what they do according to their will —just as God planned. Where is the problem then?

(I expect you have heard that 'random number generators' do not truly produce random numbers. 'Chaos theory' is fascinating, by the way.) I agree that what God does will appear different to us from how it looks to him. I keep hearing, from Christian and Unbeliever alike, that possibility is actual, that when there is choice it HAS to be between actual possibles. To me that is ridiculous. Logic says there has only ever been one possibility. The fact we keep choosing it proves it! (Ok, that last was a bit facetious). We only need to see the one possible alternative, and at least one apparent alternative, to choose between them. History has never demonstrated otherwise.

Mark Quayle said: ↑
My turn: Can chance determine anything? Yes or no. —Is this the question you mean to answer with your last statement about disciplining your children? (I like what you said there, by the way.) I don't see how that answers the question.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That is a massive assumption.

Yes it is, and I hope I am wrong in it.

And here you are, as always, simply assuming the consequent. God is capable of providing humans with the opportunity for uncaused choice, you simply limit Him unnecessarily.

Then, I certainly hope you aren't one who claims that God is limited by the logically self-contradictory.

 

[John Mullally]

Is this your claim? Or are you claiming it is one of Calvinism's claims? Or what?

If human choice is real, it is effective, whether or not it also fits perfectly God's choice. Humans always choose what they do according to their will —just as God planned. Where is the problem then?

(I expect you have heard that 'random number generators' do not truly produce random numbers. 'Chaos theory' is fascinating, by the way.) I agree that what God does will appear different to us from how it looks to him. I keep hearing, from Christian and Unbeliever alike, that possibility is actual, that when there is choice it HAS to be between actual possibles. To me that is ridiculous. Logic says there has only ever been one possibility. The fact we keep choosing it proves it! (Ok, that last was a bit facetious). We only need to see the one possible alternative, and at least one apparent alternative, to choose between them. History has never demonstrated otherwise.

Mark Quayle said: ↑
My turn: Can chance determine anything? Yes or no. —Is this the question you mean to answer with your last statement about disciplining your children? (I like what you said there, by the way.) I don't see how that answers the question.

I only have my iPhone right now so I cannot give a detailed answer especially with scripture.

We agree that human responses matter. I believe God influences men as we influence our children and this is reflected in the many biblical directives. Typically calvinists believe God scripts man’s every action which opens a big can of worms.

 

[Fervent]

Yes it is, and I hope I am wrong in it.

It's pretty far off.

Then, I certainly hope you aren't one who claims that God is limited by the logically self-contradictory.

Other way around, logical limits exist because of God. He's not limited by them, per se, but the internally self-contradictory is impossible. After all, God cannot deny Himself and neither can He lie.

 

[QvQ]

Typically calvinists believe God scripts man’s every action which opens a big can of worms.

Calvinist believe man has free will. Man can have all the free will his proud nature demands. He just doesn't have the power to enforce his will or the judgement to choose rightly. Man's will is puny, if you consider the thing.

Look what happened to Lucifer when he demanded his will be done. "Better to reigned in hell, than serve in heaven?" and as far as I know, it wasn't reigning or freedom he received. It was incarceration although God lets him out once in a while when God has a job for him. A person's notion of free will is what gets people locked up in this world and bunking with Lucifer in the next.

A can of worms is the idea that a rational and loving God would turn the devil and man loose with free will. Consider that!
God is in charge or God help us all.

 

[zoidar]

My question had to do only with the statement that it was not a problem.

But as to your further comments, I see no reason at all, anywhere in Scripture to guess that Adam was at enmity with God before the temptation, and many reasons to believe to the contrary. To me it is a bogus consideration.

Yeah, I agree with that.

"If Adam had not sinned" —do you mean to imply that if some descendent of him had sinned, then that part of humanity would have been 'infected' and the rest wouldn't, until one of them sinned, or something? Not sure what you are getting at there.

I didn't think that far. The point was just that Adam's fall would make no difference to the world if we already had a sinful nature before the fall.

As for 'imputation', do you agree that Christ's righteousness is imputed to the regenerated?

It's a good question...

I tend to think that it's not Christ's righteousness imputed to us, but Christ's righteousness given us through the Holy Spirit, so we no longer live in sin, but live a new transformed and righteous life through and in Christ.

 

[zoidar]

Not to disagree, but I think you will have a hard time showing a difference between their nature and their transgression. They only ever transgress, being ever at enmity with God.

If they didn't have an evil nature, they could stop "transgressing" and flip side.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I only have my iPhone right now so I cannot give a detailed answer especially with scripture.

We agree that human responses matter. I believe God influences men as we influence our children and this is reflected in the many biblical directives. Typically calvinists believe God scripts man’s every action which opens a big can of worms.

While it is true that God spoke all fact into being, it is equally true that he is active in every detail of the progression of fact. In my opinion, at least, both of these are one-and-the-same, to him. To do one, is to do the other.

The claim, "Typically calvinists believe God scripts man’s every action", is a bit misleading. Calvinists may believe God CAUSES every detail of all things, to include man's every action, but to say "scripts man's every action" brings concepts to mind that are not quite true. It promotes a concept of God having written a detailed outline full of code that man, idiot-like, must follow unwittingly. There is truth to that, but it ignores the fullness of God's causation. It is not by programming that God causes man to do what he does, but by causation of all things. This is no machine that runs independently according to its design.

Deism is only one description of Theism.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

God can use human will and still retain the position of possessing the only effective will in the univers as all can be scripted by God. I have been listening to you and this is why I asked.

I have used random number generators (I.e.chance) in programming to arrive at solutions to problems. I believe God tests us with from our perspective appears as random circumstances.

Long ago when disciplining my children whom I love I did not accept lame circumstantial excuses because I was teaching responsibility. I don’t believe God scripts my kids or my responses to Him or each other. There are too many directives in the Bible to have everything scripted. Maybe this does not answer your question to your satisfaction.

good insight