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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

QvQ

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1) Through Adam, all men were banished to East of Eden. All men inherited the capacity to sin and the sinful nature.
2) Christ died on the Cross for the atonement of sin. However, all men are not back in Eden.
3) The Christians are still in East of Eden but not of East of Eden. (Psalm 23 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death)

All men did inherit the nature of Adam.
All men after Christ did not inherit the Christian nature.
Does that mean limited atonement?
 
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Clare73

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1) Through Adam, all men were banished to East of Eden. All men inherited the capacity to sin and the sinful nature.
2) Christ died on the Cross for the atonement of sin. However, all men are not back in Eden.
3) The Christians are still in East of Eden but not of East of Eden. (Psalm 23 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death)
All men did inherit the nature of Adam.
All men after Christ did not inherit the Christian nature.
Does that mean limited atonement?
Looks like it. . .

And not only that, it's a matter of justice, of God requiring payment twice for the same sin, once by Jesus and then again by the condemned.
 
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QvQ

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And not only that, it's a matter of justice, of God requiring payment twice for the same sin, once by Jesus and then again by the condemned.
I don't understand. Jesus redeemed (paid) for the sin of Adam and for the individual sin of the redeemed (Christian)
However not all men are saved so Christ did not pay for their redemption (Adam) nor did He pay for the forgiveness of their sins. (individual)
The rest of the people remained under the judgement and consequences of Adam and their own sins.
 
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zoidar

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No, the nature does not at birth, but the imputation of Adam's sin/guilt (which is the pattern for the imputation of Christ's righteousness, Romans 5:14) does make us guilty of sin at birth.

No, we do not inherit sin and guilt (Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20).
It is imputed by God (Romans 5:12-18).
Which does not make us guilty of it, anymore than the rattlesnake is guilty for being born a rattlesnake.
He is guilty, however, of poisoning when he does so. . .and if he wants to live in my backyard, he must be "cleansed" of that ability to poison.

Thanks for your thoughts! I don't have that much to say about it. But concerning imputation of Adam's guilt, what will then happen with unborn babies, since that means they are guilty?
 
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zoidar

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1) Through Adam, all men were banished to East of Eden. All men inherited the capacity to sin and the sinful nature.
2) Christ died on the Cross for the atonement of sin. However, all men are not back in Eden.
3) The Christians are still in East of Eden but not of East of Eden. (Psalm 23 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death)

All men did inherit the nature of Adam.
All men after Christ did not inherit the Christianot nature.
Does that mean limited atonement?

Looks like it. . .

And not only that, it's a matter of justice, of God requiring payment twice for the same sin, once by Jesus and then again by the condemned.

We are first reconciled when we come to faith, first then have our sins been atoned. But Christ died as the atoning sacrifice for every single man, woman and child, the whole world if you will.

John 3:16-17

It seems like "the world" in John 3:17 includes those who never receives Christ, so I find it natural that those are also included in John 3:16.

For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:17

If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:47


#3222
 
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Clare73

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Thanks for your thoughts! I don't have that much to say about it. But concerning imputation of Adam's guilt,
what will then happen with unborn babies, since that means they are guilty?
I am quite comfortable with entrusting that to God.

There is no Biblical reason his election would not apply in their case also (Romans 8:29-30).
 
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Clare73

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We are first reconciled when we come to faith, first then have our sins been atoned. But
Christ died as the atoning sacrifice for every single man, woman and child, the whole world if you will.
Did he?
John 3:16-17 - It seems like "the world" in John 3:17 includes those who never receives Christ, so I find it natural that those are also included in John 3:16.
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but
that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:17

If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:47
Yes, Christ's first coming was not to judge the world, but to save the world.
However, his second coming is to judge the world.

Is "world" all without exception (every man), or all without distinction (Gentile as well as Jew)?

Does the just God require payment twice for the same sin, once by Christ and then a second time by the condemned?
 
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zoidar

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I am quite comfortable with entrusting that to God.

There is no Biblical reason his election would not apply in their case also (Romans 8:29-30).

Hm, you believe God gives spontaneous faith to unborn children? Interesting! Or you don't think they need faith?
 
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zoidar

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Of course, sis!

Yes, Christ's first coming was not to judge the world, but to save the world.
However, his second coming is to judge the world.

Yes... But what has that to do with my argument?

Is "world" all without exception (every man), or all without distinction (Gentile as well as Jew)?

My old post which I reposted shows "the world" in John 3:16 is all without exception.

Does the just God require payment twice for the same sin, once by Christ and then a second time by the condemned?

Discuss that someone who believes God requires payment twice.
 
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Clare73

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Hm, you believe God gives spontaneous faith to unborn children? Interesting! Or
you don't think they need faith?
I entrust it to God. . .don't need to figure it out.
 
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Clare73

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My old post which I reposted shows "the world" in John 3:16 is all without exception.
"Whosoever believes" is not "all without exception."
Discuss that someone who believes God requires payment twice.
So Christ didn't actually pay for everyone's sin, his atonement was only for the elect.

The condemned pay their own penalty for their sin.
 
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Clare73

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Of course, sis!



Yes... But what has that to do with my argument?



My old post which I reposted shows "the world" in John 3:16 is all without exception.



Discuss that someone who believes God requires payment twice.
Sometimes we need to do that. But
it is not consistent with Adam's sin being imputed to all men.
Indeed, it is.

God is sovereign.
 
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zoidar

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Indeed, it is.

God is sovereign.

It's very hard for you to admit when your theology brings a problem. Why is that? Why not just say: "I know it's a problem, but I believe God covers it somehow." It's not like it is going to debunk your whole theology.
 
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Clare73

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It's very hard for you to admit when your theology brings a problem. Why is that? Why not just say: "I know it's a problem, but I believe God covers it somehow." It's not like it is going to debunk your whole theology.
That question causes me to realize that I don't see things of the word of God as a problem.

As a matter of fact, I find it odd that anyone thinks God has to satisfy their "curiosity" (unbelief).
 
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zoidar

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"Whosoever believes" is not "all without exception.

John 12:47 together with John 3:17 explains who the "whoever" are: Those who deny him and those who receive him.
 
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setst777

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Agreed. . .God saves no one who does not believe in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e, "not guilty," declared righteous (sin removed) by the righteousness (obedience) of Jesus Christ (on the cross).

We are declared righteous, with remission of sin (cleansed from all sin) as we believe, and remain in the faith evidenced by walking in the Spirit, which is walking in the light, or following Lord Jesus. All the terms represent the mind of the Spirit in salvation - the New Life by which we are in Christ.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if WE (believers) walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

John 8:12 (WEB) “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let US not be weary in doing good, for WE will reap in due season, IF WE do not give up.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.13 For IF YOU live according to the flesh, you will die; but IF by the Spirit YOU put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

1 Timothy 6:18-21 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them Eternal Life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Hebrews 5:9 (WEB) Having been made perfect, he became to all of those who obey him the author of Eternal Salvation

Matthew 10:38
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

IF you are not a disciple of Lord Jesus, you are not a Christian, and you do not belong to Christ. Non-Christians not saved.

Acts 11:26
The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

Who are the disciples (Christians) who belong to Christ?

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit

So, what does faith mean by which God saves us? That is the question. To have faith in God is to love God. IF you love God, then you will follow Lord Jesus.

In the New Testament Gospel, a true faith in God is to believe in (to listen to and follow) His Son.

Faith includes repentance, which is demonstrated by a complete change of mind and purpose for living.

Acts 26:19-20 (ESV)
19 “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

Romans 1:5 (NIV) 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

The true believer denies the old life of selfish ambitions, and now commits to become a slave of God, holy (being separate or sanctified) onto God for the purpose of obeying Him, living a righteous life of Love.

These are the ones who are in The Faith, and receive remission of sins. This is what Paul taught throughout all his letters. For instance, see:

Romans 6; Romans 13:11-14; Romans 12:1-2; 1 Corinthians 9:22-27; 1 Corinthians 10:1-12; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Galatians 5:13-25; Galatians 6:7-9; Ephesians 5:1-20; Philippians 2:14-16; Philippians 3:7-12; Colossians 3:1-17; 1 Timothy 4:16; 1 Timothy 5:11; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:6; Hebrews 3:12-15; Hebrews 3:14; Hebrews 12:14-17

and so many more Passages of instruction all through Paul’s letters.
 
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Der Alte

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Looks like it. . .
And not only that, it's a matter of justice, of God requiring payment twice for the same sin, once by Jesus and then again by the condemned
.
If sinful people reject the sacrifice of Jesus then and only then will the sinful person have to pay the penalty him/herself.
An analogy I once heard. A man wanted to go on a sea cruise, he scrimped and saved until he had enough for the cheapest ticket. On the day of the cruise he carried as much food as he could. He ate small portions but it was not enough he ran out of food but the cruise was not over. He held off as long as he could but finally went to the galley and begged the head chef to let him have some food that he would even work for it. The chef asked to see his ticket. After looking at the ticket he told the man "This ticket entitles you to eat meals in the dining area."
 
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Mark Quayle

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In Calvinism: Is only God’s will effective? Yes or no.
No. Apparently I haven't told you, or you haven't been listening. Human will is one of many tools God uses to accomplish his will. God works through means. Human choice is real, with real, even eternal, consequences.

My turn: Can chance determine anything? Yes or no.
 
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