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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Fervent

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The multiple references to “both Jews and gentiles” in those chapters and throughout Romans contradicts that view.

Romans 9:23-24 [NASB95]
And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
No, they don't. Certainly, the audience for Romans is mixed but given the predominance of references to Jewish history it is clear the question Paul is answering centers on God's faithfulness to the Jews. Your quote amplifies what I said about "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy," because it highlights that the covenant with the Jews was done so that God could fulfill the prmise to bless all men through Abraham. It goes hand in hand with all being cast into disobedience so God could show mercy to all. To turn it into a claim of exclusivity on God's mercy is the opposite of what is written,
 
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atpollard

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Your absurdity is noted, but it does not alter the central point. Calvinism presents no explanation for evil except that it is part of God's moral character. It makes God the author of evil, and no amount of word games can change that fact and neither do absurd attempts such as what you've presented here.
What is darkness?
What is the scientific unit for measuring the quantity of darkness?

In physics, darkness does not exist, except as a concept to describe the absence of light. Light is something that exists and can be measured. Darkness does not exist and cannot be measured.

It is no accident that God is described as “Light” and evil is described as both “darkness” and “that which opposes God” (misses the mark).
 
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Fervent

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What is darkness?
What is the scientific unit for measuring the quantity of darkness?

In physics, darkness does not exist, except as a concept to describe the absence of light. Light is something that exists and can be measured. Darkness does not exist and cannot be measured.

It is no accident that God is described as “Light” and evil is described as both “darkness” and “that which opposes God” (misses the mark).
Evil as the absence of good does not give a full account of it, its a clever misdirection and a prime bit of sophistry and little else. This especially doesn't track under a view in which everything that exists is by the decree of God, as if such were the case then your definition of evil would be an impossibility. So your attempt at rescue fails on two accounts.
 
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QvQ

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It is no accident that God is described as “Light” and evil is described as both “darkness” and “that which opposes God” (misses the mark).
Then, man would not have to have " free will," or any will at all, to be bad because there isn't any good to choose. So unregenerate man wanders around, living, surviving, doing what comes naturally and all of it is not good, just varying in degrees of evil. Just a man wandering around in darkness not needing a will, free or otherwise, to choose because there isn't any light to choose. Just surviving in darkness
Interesting, if I understand correctly.
 
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JimD
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"just as the result of one trespass (the fruit) was condemnation for all men,
Trespass/fruit means work are you saying Adam's work of sin was imputed? We know it cannot be inherited, Ezekiel 18.
if yes, does that mean the unborn, children, mentally handicapped etc., are condemned to hell if they die before being reborn?
 
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atpollard

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Evil as the absence of good does not give a full account of it
The claim was that evil could not exist unless God actively created both good and evil.

What is the unit of measure for darkness?

Darkness exists BECAUSE light exists, but nothing creates darkness. Therefore, as a point of logic, evil can exist because good exists without the need for anything to create evil (just like the relationship between darkness and light).
 
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atpollard

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Then, man would not have to have " free will," or any will at all, to be bad because there isn't any good to choose. So unregenerate man wanders around, living, surviving, doing what comes naturally and all of it is not good, just varying in degrees of evil. Just a man wandering around in darkness not needing a will, free or otherwise, to choose because there isn't any light to choose. Just surviving in darkness
Interesting, if I understand correctly.
As the sun is the source of light shining on the earth, so is God the source of all GOOD. In Adam, God breathed life into man making him a living being “in the image of God” (possessing light). However, just as the light of the moon is the reflected light of the sun and not an innate light from the moon, the good in men is from God and not innately generated from men. Hence Mark 10:18.
 
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Mark Quayle

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This is nothing but philosophical garbage, as is typical of your posts. You begin with the assumption that God is some kind of puppet master, but as I said earlier such a view is simply not worthy of consideration because if it is true there is nothing in our power to change. It's an untenable position because arguing for it refutes it by implying the effectiveness of the will of the one you're arguing with.

Thank you again for your kind words. While you misrepresent what I believe, I can see how you might think it is philosophical refuse. After all, you assume a primacy to human thought, to go along with the independence of his will. I do not assume God is some kind of puppet master. In fact, I insist that man does have real will, and that his choices are real, having real, even eternal, consequences.

If I was to call your notions illogical emotional humanist garbage, and to claim that you assume that God watches from afar, and must wait to see what chance —er, freewill— causes, like the designs resulting from the burrowing of ants behind the glass in an ant farm, before deciding what to do next with his universe, you would accuse me of misrepresentation too. "We are not ants, to God. We are his CHILDREN!"

Our conversation would be broken down completely. But maybe you can try to prove your points, proving mine wrong without deprecating them to such a degree.

I would say it is not obvious, either Biblically or practically. After all, God is not a respecter of persons and does not show favortism.

So, as has been shown before, you reject the many examples in Scripture of him giving to one but not another, dealing with one but not with another, loving one particularly above another, and even the outright statements that he does these.


My discarding of the Calvinist construct of the elect is not simply because the phrase is contextually dependent, but because the Calvinist notion of "the elect" is a product of Reformation philosophy(which itself is a product of Augustinian original sin). Catholic theology only minorly struggled with Calvinist election with Jansenism, and there is no predecessor before Luther and Calvin as the debate between Thomism and Mollinism is distinctly different since Thomist predestination necessarily involves the cooperation of the human will. Where Augustine's influence is minimal there has been no such theological struggle, nothing resembling Calvinism ever took root in the East and certainly makes no appearance in the pre-Augustinian church fathers.

Spoken almost as if you were quoting a Catholic. Sorry, but the early church was not Roman Catholic.

But, as I have said before, the Bible has many references to what Calvin taught concerning election. Calvin himself is nothing.

Those are escape hypotheses, nothing in the context of the text or in ordinary usage suggests such a thing. It's simply a desperate attempt by Calvinists to invent a subversion of explicit Biblical texts that contradict their doctrine which is built on philosophical presuppositions being read into verses that have been removed from their literary and historic context. The fact that such a view did not arise until the 16th century demonstrates that it is not naturally in the text, but is instead a product of 16th century philosophy.

Interesting how the same has been said of Arminianism: "Those are escape hypotheses, nothing in the context of the text or in ordinary usage suggests such a thing. It's simply a desperate attempt by Calvinists to invent a subversion of explicit Biblical texts that contradict their doctrine which is built on philosophical presuppositions being read into verses that have been removed from their literary and historic context." And, as I have shown in prior engagements with you and others, the Bible itself demonstrates what you claim did not arise until the 16th century.

Dyothelitism does not demonstrate a division within God, it is only if Jesus is understood monothelitically that your reference presents a problem. Certainly, I would say that Calvinist theology reduces Jesus to being monothelitic, but that's an entirely different discussion.

It would also be a mistake to claim it. I see no division within God, in anything I said there.

The division Calvinism introduces is not between Christ's humanity and His divinity, but in the Godhead itself. It turns God into a schizophrenic willing two opposing things at once. It's bad theology, even if it weren't morally odious and contradictory to the full witness of Scrripture.
Wishing, (as said from a human pov), and planning (willing, decreeing), are two different things. Just as an example: If you think sin doesn't hurt God, so that he feels pain, disgust and anger, yet you also reject the notion that he planned for it, you are depending on your philosophical (and emotional) presuppositions.

The notion that omnipotent God, who saw before creating what would happen, yet created anyway, and even facilitated his own impotence by "endowing humans with uncaused freewill, so that their choices could not be caused by God" presents not only a schizophrenic god, but an incohesive doctrine.
 
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Mark Quayle

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It's sounds to me that you are saying you need to get this right with imputation of righteousness through Christ's obedience to be saved. Maybe you mean something else? I'm not fully sure what you mean with "if they DO know it".
Typo. I don't remember what I intended to say there, except perhaps, "even if they DO know it.", but that doesn't quite add up to what I intended to point out there. Sorry.
 
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Mark Quayle

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It's sounds to me that you are saying you need to get this right with imputation of righteousness through Christ's obedience to be saved. Maybe you mean something else? I'm not fully sure what you mean with "if they DO know it".

Just two things are needed to be saved, repentance and faith in Christ's death for our sins and his resurrection from the dead. That is what saved me 21th of June 2010.

I see that you were struggling with questions around salvation. Many do! And you found peace through the Reformed faith. I don't know what to say about that. It's good to find where one belongs, even I would wish your found your belonging in another denomination. That's my honest answer.

I only mis-spoke. My point was intended that, or would have worked out to that, one need not know much of anything in order to be saved. I think you are probably familiar with one of my favorite conjectures, that God can save even a clinical idiot who doesn't even have concepts in the usual sense —which conjecture, I think, brings us to a better understanding of the bare minimums of the Gospel, and what it is to understand or "know" them. God makes one aware of the great difference between himself and God, and makes that one to desire and eagerly submit to God's own remedy for that distance, not even knowing in concepts what that remedy entailed, but that it overcame the distance. For lack of complications that accompany intelligence and amounts of knowledge, such a gospel seems, to me at least, more pure, more accurate, and far more concise.

Most of our definitions, discussions and arguments, both Christian and Secular, I think could be better described as corrective than instructive. It is usually easier to present what a thing is not, than what it is.

What saved you is not what you are necessarily immediately aware of. You cannot repent nor have faith, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. God saved you, by grace, through faith, and that not of yourself.
 
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JimD
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I only mis-spoke. My point was intended that, or would have worked out to that, one need not know much of anything in order to be saved. I think you are probably familiar with one of my favorite conjectures, that God can save even a clinical idiot who doesn't even have concepts in the usual sense —which conjecture, I think, brings us to a better understanding of the bare minimums of the Gospel, and what it is to understand or "know" them. God makes one aware of the great difference between himself and God, and makes that one to desire and eagerly submit to God's own remedy for that distance, not even knowing in concepts what that remedy entailed, but that it overcame the distance. For lack of complications that accompany intelligence and amounts of knowledge, such a gospel seems, to me at least, more pure, more accurate, and far more concise.

Most of our definitions, discussions and arguments, both Christian and Secular, I think could be better described as corrective than instructive. It is usually easier to present what a thing is not, than what it is.

What saved you is not what you are necessarily immediately aware of. You cannot repent nor have faith, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. God saved you, by grace, through faith, and that not of yourself.
So The Holy Spirit/God/Christ does reach out to the unsaved and he cannot resist or reject because He has chosen him and If God has not chosen him He will not reach out to him.
Man not having any part in his condemnation or salvation is not the picture we get from the scripture. The picture you paint seems to be philosophic rather than scripture. Not saying you are wrong, just don't be surprised when folks don't buy it. It's like I was trying to share with you about Cain and you did not buy it. I would have liked to share a lot more that I am very sure The Holy Spirit has shown me but I am confident you nor anyone else will buy it. I was surprised you saw what I shared about Christ preparing a place for us or were U just trying to be nice?
 
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Mark Quayle

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So The Holy Spirit/God/Christ does reach out to the unsaved and he cannot resist or reject because He has chosen him and If God has not chosen him He will not reach out to him.
Man not having any part in his condemnation or salvation is not the picture we get from the scripture. The picture you paint seems to be philosophic rather than scripture. Not saying you are wrong, just don't be surprised when folks don't buy it. It's like I was trying to share with you about Cain and you did not buy it. I would have liked to share a lot more that I am very sure The Holy Spirit has shown me but I am confident you nor anyone else will buy it. I was surprised you saw what I shared about Christ preparing a place for us or were U just trying to be nice?

Huh? Where do you get these half-statements from to combine them?

Who said man has no part in his condemnation? Quote, please, with source reference.

I don't recall your reference to Christ preparing a place for us. I'm not sure if I agreed or what, exactly. There are times I agree with something one writes, but not with what THEY mean by it or by what they might take it to imply.
 
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JimD
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Huh? Where do you get these half-statements from to combine them?

Who said man has no part in his condemnation? Quote, please, with source reference.

I don't recall your reference to Christ preparing a place for us. I'm not sure if I agreed or what, exactly. There are times I agree with something one writes, but not with what THEY mean by it or by what they might take it to imply.
Never mind, sorry I rattled your cage : )
 
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Fervent

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The claim was that evil could not exist unless God actively created both good and evil.

What is the unit of measure for darkness?

Darkness exists BECAUSE light exists, but nothing creates darkness. Therefore, as a point of logic, evil can exist because good exists without the need for anything to create evil (just like the relationship between darkness and light).
Once again, the comparison doesn't match up. Darkness is a passive property, it's simply the default. Evil, on the other hand, requires active intent it is not simply a passive property. So it fails on the grounds that the analogy doesn't work.

Then there is the issue of claiming everything is God's decree, if such is the case then there is nothing that is absent the will of God. Which would be as if there truly existed no darkness. So it fails as an account for evil because it simply makes evil a fictional entity, which also does not match either the Bible or practical experience.

So the analogy fails both on its face and as an accounting measure.
 
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Clare73

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The Scriptures are clear throughout, of which quotes I provided, that God shows no favoritism are partiality.
Regarding Salvation, God shows no favoritism or partiality, but judges each person by how they respond to His grace.
See: Deuteronomy 10:17; 2 Chronicles 19:7; Jeremiah 18:1-10; Acts 10:34-35; Romans 2:5-11; Romans 10:10-13; Romans 11:30-32; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 3:23-25; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 1 Peter 1:17-19; 2 Peter 3:9; James 2:9
You can write "CONTRAIRE," but God has the first and the last word.
Indeed! . . .and much of which you seem to be unaware.
God may choose a person or nation to fulfill his plans, but
God chooses according to a person's faith or sinful dispositions.
Are you sure about that?

"I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you a great nation." (Exodus 32:9-10)

"The LORD said to Moses, 'How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them? I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they.' " (Numbers 14:11-12)

"It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land. . .Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people. (Deuteronomy 9:5-6)

They were the worst and most ill-humored of all the peoples.
God does not make anyone evil or faithful. Not in Scripture.
So you know his word in Scripture well enough to make such statements?

"It is God who works in you both to will and to do. (Philippians 2:13).
Regarding our salvation or damnation, God shows no favoritism or partiality. That is God's Word.
That is his word regarding his justice, not his mercy and love.

As previously explained:
He showed favoritism to Israel out of all the nations, which they did not earn nor deserve.

God shows no favoritism in his justice, which he owes to everyone--to give them their due, what they have earned.
We all know what we are due as enemies of God--wrath (Romans 5:9-10).
God owes no one love, and is free to dispense it as he pleases.

And among much, much more, you also have not reckoned with Romans 9:19-21.
 
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zoidar

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The claim was that evil could not exist unless God actively created both good and evil.

What is the unit of measure for darkness?

Darkness exists BECAUSE light exists, but nothing creates darkness. Therefore, as a point of logic, evil can exist because good exists without the need for anything to create evil (just like the relationship between darkness and light).

I don't follow how darkness is evil. Do you mean like before God created the universe only evil/darkness existed? But then it could be said that from the beginning God and evil coexisted. I don't see that make sense.
 
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Clare73

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Imputed Christ's righteous obedience through faith. Here it is like
you through faith have done Christ's actions and is thereby counted as righteous.
Or
Faith in Christ's obedience is imputed to me as righteousness. Here it is not like
you have done Christ's actions but you believing in Christ's actions makes you counted as righteous.
"Imputed" and "reckoned" are the same Greek word.
1. I haven't seen it in the Early Church writings. (Works as commentators to the Bible)
Have you seen it in apostolic writings?
2. The Bible seems full of verses that contradict "faith alone", at least the way the reformers had it. Just look at the Sermon of the mount.
I note you mention nothing of the NT revelation given to Paul by Jesus himself (Galatians 1:11-12).
3. If it is true why doesn't the Bible clearly state it?
Why did Jesus speak in parables?
"Just believe in the promise and you will be saved" - kind of.
(You will likely say it does clearly state it and I disagree)
Gads!

Who made the rule that what was written 2,000 years ago must be in the formulation which suits you?

You place a (blinding) bar in your own door. . .and our ground for discussion is fast becoming less and less. . .
Of course the Bible is authoritative in all teachings.
Making it necessary to deny them.
 
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QvQ

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Evil, on the other hand, requires active intent it is not simply a passive property.
I am considering this light / dark analogy
Evil does not require intent. A person can be actively involved in evil without intending or recognizing the evil. Very few people set out to do evil and even then, with intent, they feel justified. (white lies for instance)
Also the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Then there is the issue of claiming everything is God's decree, if such is the case then there is nothing that is absent the will of God. Which would be as if there truly existed no darkness.
The analogy is "absence of Light" as describing the absence of a relationship with God. Cain experienced the absence of Light /God so it is not fiction. Yet it was God's decree that Cain continued to live, even in the absence of Light /God. Cain was outside the law, outlawd, which is a state of existence where Cain was unacceptable to God.
So yes, if God is analogous to Light then what Cain experienced was absence of God. Cain lived in spiritual darkness. It was by God's decree and it was passive, in the sense, if Cain had to steal or beg to live, then he was subject to passive forces (circumstances) influencing his choices.
I am still thinking about this, but these are my thoughts so far.
 
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atpollard

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Then there is the issue of claiming everything is God's decree, if such is the case then there is nothing that is absent the will of God.
I would never claim that evil was “absent the will of God”. Evil is most definitely not an “accident” that just happened or a “mistake” that God never wanted to happen. [Genesis 50:20]
 
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