What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

It is a logical argument. In SAT terms …

Darkness is to Light, as Evil is to Good.

• Darkness is the absence of light, so evil is the absence of good.
• Light and Good both exist as a reality
• Darkness and Evil do not have an innate existence … they are only measured by the lack of their opposite.
  
• Darkness is defined by how close to ZERO (0) light something/place is. Evil can be defined by how close to ZERO (0) good (God) something/one is.

But in the beginning there was no absence of good.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
— John 1:1

I don't think you can grade evil. Either it is evil or it is not.

 

[Mark Quayle]

SAT = Scholastic Aptitude Test required for entry in to college etc.

Yeah, I know what Scholastic Aptitude Test is. I just don't see it particularly applicable in that context, and supposed you meant something else by it.

 

[Der Alte]

Yeah, I know what Scholastic Aptitude Test is. I just don't see it particularly applicable in that context, and supposed you meant something else by it.

I didn't use the term. Just trying to help out.

 

[QvQ]

I don't think you can grade evil. Either it is evil or it is not.

It may be that "evil" doesn't have reality. It may be a term that covers a multitude of sins. So sin is whatever transgresses God's law. Any and all sin would therefore be categorically evil by definition.

 

[QvQ]

Been there, done that. . .

There are three of us, Zoider, Clare and myself. Interesting we should agree and discuss with each other. And be recognized as Calvinist. I am just posting what I learned through "homeschooling" The homeschoolers seem to be a class of reformed recognized as a group.
I wonder if any of the other posters were actually churched and schooled in the tradition?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Me too. I kept it to myself until one day I wondered if my conclusions were mainstream or not. So I took a quizz for denomination. The result was Puritan. And Puritans were Calvinist so I wandered over here to see if I could find out a bit more about Puritans and Calvinist.

Did you ever read any John Owen? It's like eating food.

 

[zoidar]

It may be that "evil" doesn't have reality. It may be a term that covers a multitude of sins. So sin is whatever transgresses God's law. Any and all sin would therefore be categorically evil by definition.

Hm, but the devil is evil. The fallen angels are evil, not because they transgress God's law. They are by nature evil. Through the fall evil became part of our nature. That is the reason we sin.

 

[QvQ]

Did you ever read any John Owen

I found "The Glory of Christ" John Owen (1616 – 24 August 1683)
I will read that.
Thanks, I am always looking for interesting books to read.

 

[QvQ]

Hm, but the devil is evil. The fallen angels are evil, not because they transgress God's law. They are by nature evil. Through the fall evil became part of our nature. That is the reason we sin.

Evil is a list of sins. Evil is the category, sin is the list. Any sin or list of sins means that entity is evil.
It is also a inherent aspect of character, the capacity to sin.
A man is evil without stating the sins that make him so is generic. "That man is evil (generic) only if a person can testify to specific sins he committed to make him so.

 

[atpollard]

What is, "SAT" terms?

SAT = Scholastic Aptitude Test
SAT terms = terms used in the SAT

The SAT has a section of the test where you fill in the blanks …

Up is to Hat as Down is to _______ . (a. shoe, b. football, c. groundhog)

… and determine the relationship between the pairs of words.

 

[misput]

The NT teaches that Adam's sin/guilt is imputed (Romans 5:12-18) to all those (born) of Adam, and is
the pattern (Romans 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being imputed (Romans 4:1-11) to all those (born) of Christ (Romans 5:18-19),
just as by faith God's righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:24-25) was imputed to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

According to the word of God, all are born condemned by the sin/guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18),
which condemnation remains on them unless they believe in the Son (John 3:18).

Thanks.

 

[atpollard]

But in the beginning there was no absence of good.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
— John 1:1

I don't think you can grade evil. Either it is evil or it is not.

• When God made Adam, before the fall, everything was “very good”. (A simple biblical statement of fact from Genesis 1).
• Could Adam choose to disobey God and eat the fruit? (rhetorical question, since he did).
• “Very good” is not “perfect” (conclusion drawn from Genesis 1-3)
• Only God is perfect … EVERYTHING ELSE is a shade of imperfect (defining imperfect as less than God perfection).
• Since it would be handy for people to have a word (abstract construct) to describe the degree of “less than perfect” EVERYTHING is, let’s call that word … “evil”.

 

[zoidar]

• When God made Adam, before the fall, everything was “very good”. (A simple biblical statement of fact from Genesis 1).
• Could Adam choose to disobey God and eat the fruit? (rhetorical question, since he did).
• “Very good” is not “perfect” (conclusion drawn from Genesis 1-3)
• Only God is perfect … EVERYTHING ELSE is a shade of imperfect (defining imperfect as less than God perfection).
• Since it would be handy for people to have a word (abstract construct) to describe the degree of “less than perfect” EVERYTHING is, let’s call that word … “evil”.

I wouldn't agree with that. That a thing isn't perfect doesn't make it evil. We can call imperfect things "evil" but my definition of evil is enmity with God. I think that is the biblical definition.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It may be that "evil" doesn't have reality. It may be a term that covers a multitude of sins. So sin is whatever transgresses God's law. Any and all sin would therefore be categorically evil by definition.

Hm, but the devil is evil. The fallen angels are evil, not because they transgress God's law. They are by nature evil. Through the fall evil became part of our nature. That is the reason we sin.

Agreed. I like what QvQ said; that is, I think he has a point in that evil is not of itself a thing, or that if it is, it is a parasite.

One of the carefully chosen words common to Reformed thinking (and probably others besides Reformed) is to say that Evil is the 'privation' of Good, to avoid accusations from using phrases like 'the antithesis of Good' (to which some would object, "Dualism!"), or 'the negation of Good" (to which some would object, "You claim evil has power over good???"), and the like.

But Zoidar and I have discussed this before, and I have mentioned that there are places in Scripture where Evil (or variously, Sin) is given a sort of 'absolute value' (in mathematical terms), almost a personality, in places such as, "Behold, Sin crouches at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it." Our Lord is even said to have 'become sin' for us. Many questions, many unfilled thoughts here! And strangely enough, I think the answers are probably right in front of us.

 

[atpollard]

I wouldn't agree with that. That a thing isn't perfect doesn't make it evil. We can call imperfect things "evil" but my definition of evil is enmity with God. I think that is the biblical definition.

Lucifer … foremost of the Archangels.
Adam … pinnacle of creation.

Both were as close to perfect as any created being that was not God … Both were fully capable of evil.

So what is less “evil” than Lucifer and Adam before their fall?

Mark 10:18
Luke 18:19

 

[Leaviathan]

It may be that "evil" doesn't have reality. It may be a term that covers a multitude of sins. So sin is whatever transgresses God's law. Any and all sin would therefore be categorically evil by definition.

But Christians sin all the time, they fall out of the lane then return through dedication. But I don't think they're Evil, Evil is a state of mind in my opinion.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I found "The Glory of Christ" John Owen (1616 – 24 August 1683)
I will read that.
Thanks, I am always looking for interesting books to read.

Two of my favorites are The Mortification of Sin, (which to my mind should remove all doubts in those who claim Calvinism is unscripturally focused), and The Death of Death in the Death of Christ. From neither of these will you find a better treatment of the subjects they deal with. Both make me weep with anguish. And just telling you about them makes me want to read them again.

 

[zoidar]

Lucifer … foremost of the Archangels.
Adam … pinnacle of creation.

Both were as close to perfect as any created being that was not God … Both were fully capable of evil.

So what is less “evil” than Lucifer and Adam before their fall?

Mark 10:18
Luke 18:19

Being capable of evil doesn't make one evil, or else God created Adam and Eve evil from the beginning. And if that is the case, what was the problem with eating the fruit? Since they were already condemnd from the start if they were evil.

 

[Mark Quayle]

• When God made Adam, before the fall, everything was “very good”. (A simple biblical statement of fact from Genesis 1).
• Could Adam choose to disobey God and eat the fruit? (rhetorical question, since he did).
• “Very good” is not “perfect” (conclusion drawn from Genesis 1-3)
• Only God is perfect … EVERYTHING ELSE is a shade of imperfect (defining imperfect as less than God perfection).
• Since it would be handy for people to have a word (abstract construct) to describe the degree of “less than perfect” EVERYTHING is, let’s call that word … “evil”.

I wouldn't agree with that. That a thing isn't perfect doesn't make it evil. We can call imperfect things "evil" but my definition of evil is enmity with God. I think that is the biblical definition.

I agree with your definition of evil, in most Scriptural instances. But to say, "That a thing isn't perfect doesn't make it evil." requires a definition of what you mean by perfect. In Scripture it can mean, "complete", or it can mean "sinless", or it can mean "faultless" (as in, 'of good report' or 'of good conscience'). Jesus says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." What does he mean there?

 

[atpollard]

Being capable of evil doesn't make one evil, or else God created Adam and Eve evil from the beginning. And if that is the case, what was the problem with eating the fruit? They were already condemnd if they were evil.

Being created makes one imperfect (only God is perfect and He is uncreated).
Only God is good (Mark 10:18) … all else is less than “good”.
Beyond that lies an argument in semantics.