What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[misput]

In the first eight chapters or Romans, the apostle Paul makes man’s need and God’s gracious provision through Christ abundantly clear. Paul ends chapter 8 on a high note in reflection of the endless, inseparable love God has for those who are in an abiding, relationship with Him (Romans 8:9-28).

In chapters 9-11 of Romans, Paul shifts focus to his anguish over Israel.

I invite you now to the summary commentary of Romans 9 by Leighton Flowers - drum roll please
Line by Line through Romans 9

Thank you, this is extremely helpful!

 

[GenemZ]

Strawman. . .which alters nothing regarding the spiritual impotence of unregenerate man.

You do not understand how grace works in bringing people to salvation.

My problem is... you are determined to resist. Where is the grace?

 

[RickReads]

And reading books differs from reading pamphlets, talking to preachers and believers, how? . . .except that preachers and believers are not a printed page?

Pamphlets were short and to the point and easily accessible. Back then most churches had printouts freely available.

I wasn't actually after the doctrines I was chasing the Holy Spirit.

 

[GenemZ]

. .
Feel free to exegete:
Romans 9:18-19,

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”​

What that says in one aspect. Stop telling God what to do concerning other people's lives. Only He knows all things involved. If God wants Joe Biden to live and stay in office, its for God's purpose.


And, there is the - "Why does God blame us?" crowd?

They were thinking like hyper Calvinists! Sovereignty is everything to them, and God can not be resisted. Paul was against such thinking.

 

[Clare73]

You do not understand how grace works in bringing people to salvation.

Assertion without demonstration is assertion without merit.

 

[Clare73]

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”​

What that says in one aspect. Stop telling God what to do concerning other people's lives. Only He knows all things involved.

And in its primary aspect, what does it say?

And, there is the - "Why does God blame us?" (Romans 9:19) crowd?

They were thinking like Calvinists!

Sovereignty is everything to them

Poor Paul. . .thinking like a Calvinist in Romans 9:19. . .tsk, tsk, tsk.
I rest my case.
Q.E.D.

and God can not be resisted. Paul was against such thinking.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I never believed in irresistible grace. I would say I had a semi-irristable grace view. I believed the elect will always choose Christ and I had concluded limited atonement based on what the bible says about the elect. I also was uncomfortably aware that the scripture appeared to teach OSAS if you were of the elect which raises issues about sinning.

At the time I was coming out of a works for salvation Pentecostal mindset that I had failed at. I became a confused combination of several different denominational theologies. I even have Catholocism in my background.

I didn't learn theology by going to school and reading books. I learned it by visiting churches, reading pamphlets, talking to preachers, talking to believers, and worshipping God with them.

Thanks for elaborating brother !

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Wrong. . .one understands the plain word of God, only to discover they are not the only one who understands it that way. . .Calvin, et al, also do.

Wrong Calvin was a student of Augustine and quoted him 100’s of times in his works . You appear to be a revisionist .

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

Wrong. . .one understands the plain word of God, only to discover they are not the only one who understands it that way. . .Calvin, et al, also do.

Wrong Calvin was a student of Augustine and quoted him 100’s of times in his works . You appear to be a revisionist .

"Calvin, et all" includes Augustine.

 

[misput]

Here is a humble and wise young man who I agree with on this podcast - especially his view of predestination and simple free will (i.e. not a free will definition that requires advanced training to understand {which should itself be a red flag}). I find this podcast especially refreshing. It is on topic because he addresses problems in Calvinism, but does not condemn Calvinists. I find it constructive. For those throwing darts, think twice by keeping in mind that Jesus's warning in Matthew 7:2 applies to you!

Be blessed!

Balance in The Holy Spirit! This is what we need. Great information. Thank you!

 

[misput]

I'm not seeking answers. . .

I'm examining the Scriptures, demonstrating what they actually present.

I appreciate your opinions about the scripture but as for what they actually present I will rely on The Holy Spirit.

 

[GenemZ]

And in its primary aspect, what does it say?

Poor Paul. . .thinking like a Calvinist in Romans 9:19. . .tsk, tsk, tsk.
I rest my case.
Q.E.D.

You do not know what grace is. Irresistible grace is a false doctrine.

Show us using Scripture how grace is irresistible.

 

[misput]

You do not understand how grace works in bringing people to salvation.

My problem is... you are determined to resist. Where is the grace?

Try not to let her problem become your problem : )

 

[GenemZ]

Try not to let her problem become your problem : )

By the grace of God it will not happen, if I am walking in grace.

Grace is God's enabling of a person who is too weak naturally to be able to consider doing what is the right thing to do.

Grace in enabling action can surprise us.

 

[Clare73]

I appreciate your opinions about the scripture but as
for what they actually present I will rely on The Holy Spirit.

However, God does not provide only the Holy Spirit for his church.
He also provides teachers (1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11), because they likewise are needed.

 

[Clare73]

You do not know what grace is. Irresistible grace is a false doctrine.

Show us using Scripture how grace is irresistible.

Show where I have said grace is irresistible.

 

[GenemZ]

And in its primary aspect, what does it say?

Poor Paul. . .thinking like a Calvinist in Romans 9:19. . .tsk, tsk, tsk.
I rest my case.
Q.E.D.

Paul was simply quoting their thinking. Not agreeing with it.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?​

They were trying to say they were not to blame because no one can resist God's will. That was a lie.

They were "formed" (character formation) by God through God bringing in outside influences on their lives that forced decision making. It forced those who were negative towards God to have their negativity exposed.

God did not cause their negativity! He only made them to fess up their negativity! ... just like Pharaoh did.

 

[Clare73]

Paul was simply quoting their thinking. Not agreeing with it.

You say it is "Calvinists" who reject the sovereignty of God stated in Romans 9:18?

You're confused about the "Calvinists."

One of you will say to me:
“Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

They were trying to say they were not to blame because no one can resist God's will. That was a lie.

Where's the lie?. . .Paul doesn't call it a lie, rather he defends it, accusing them of talking back to God.

 

[misput]

By the grace of God it will not happen, if I am walking in grace.

Grace is God's enabling of a person who is too weak naturally to be able to consider doing what is the right thing to do.

Grace in enabling action can surprise us.

Yes it is an avenue God provides to everyone who is willing, otherwise there would be no point to evangelism or loving others. Everything would be a farce.

 

[GenemZ]

I appreciate your opinions about the scripture but as for what they actually present I will rely on The Holy Spirit.

When it says... we have no need for another to teach us?"

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you,
and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing
teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not
counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him." 1 Jn 2:27​

Keep in mind.. John had to teach them that! They had to be taught that by a man!

John was saying...

You are to be your own decider of what you are to believe when listening to the Word being taught. In other words? You are not in need for someone to grab you after the message to make sure you see it their way. Its like what the fake news media has been trying to do to us for some time now!

If being taught a Bible lesson? If you be in the Spirit? You are to decide for yourself in the Spirit what is truth and what is to be rejected.

But? If you be in the pride of the flesh while listening?

You will reap what you sow.
If we be in the Spirit?
We will reap what God sows on our behalf.

We will begin to understand truth that we will know deep down inside we would never have understood if left to our own natural ability to reason. The anointing (filing of the Spirit) enables! That is GRACE!

That is why some will get it (if what was taught is truth). While others will seek out to find teachings to satisfy their own way of feeling comfortable about a matter.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 1 Tim 4:3​

Before salvation some who are among us took pride in their feelings of intellectual superiority over others around them. It had been the foundation for their self esteem.

Those like them who refused to be humbled after salvation, will seek to reestablish that sense of comfort in their pride once more... Doing so, in wanting and accepting false teaching that will lend itself to being brought back to the position (of the delusion) of being the superior thinker among us. Once again, to be basing their self esteem in a manner that they were once naturally comfortable with before their salvation.

It can also work for those who grew up establishing their self esteem based upon their feeling of being 'emotionally' superior to others. For there are various false teachings designed to accommodate this type as well. Emotion-driven believers is quite common to see these days. Irrationality reigns in their camp, just as much as it does in the opposite pole.

God sovereignly allowed me to say that.

grace and peace