What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Doesn't ring a bell by the name, so probably not. I must have missed it, unless it was very long, and I decided not to spend my limited data. Can you link it again?

26 minutes.

 

[zoidar]

I have seen people who are right, come across as irritatingly proud or condescending, when all they think they are is right. They don't think they are perfect, and being human they react to people who become antagonistic toward them. Some of them have gotten in the habit of being pre-emptively antagonistic. But I think you would agree, when you know something for sure, it gives a certain air of confidence. It can be taken as pride or arrogance. True faith in God doesn't have to be understood to give one confidence, but when what one believes seems to them to be backed up by scripture, and by reason, and experience, in many different ways/ references/ logical sequences/ events and assessments, yeah, it can make them very confident.

But I guess I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

A good lesson I learned in the past was that I KNEW some things to be true. Then it turned out I was wrong. I have to say: "thank God" in that particular case. "Knowing something" is a sense of knowing inside, but it really means to be "very certain of something". I think that can help us stay humble. The only thing we can know with 100% certainty is what we experience. We can know we experience what we experience. That is not really "knowing" but fact.

In discussions with other Christians I think we need to take a step back from our "knowing to be fact" and enter discussions with "I'm very certain of" instead. I think you know what I mean.

True faith in God doesn't have to be understood to give one confidence, but when what one believes seems to them to be backed up by scripture, and by reason, and experience, in many different ways/ references/ logical sequences/ events and assessments, yeah, it can make them very confident.

I know, that's very true!

 

[zoidar]

.

 

[zoidar]

And the distinction between "Calvin" and "Calvinism" is a new one to me.
I know some Calvin, which evidently is not "Calvinism."
Nor do I do "ism's", I do Scripture.

Did you learn your theology from reading the Bible alone or did you pick up your theology from different Biblical scholars?

 

[Mark Quayle]

But deadly accurate.
I see your unable to defend him.
He did a lot of writing. Seems he misplaced God altogether.

Your summary of accusation seems to lack a body of evidence.

Mere assertion. Like I just did here. Means nothing. If that's all you've got, forget it. Got better things to do.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Did you learn your theology from reading the Bible alone or did you pick up your theology from different Biblical scholars?

no one becomes a calvinist without reading their dogma.

 

[RickReads]

no one becomes a calvinist without reading their dogma.

I did. I didn't know what Calvinism as a term means until 2002. I began believing in a Calvinist-like theology in the late 80s.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I did. I didn't know what Calvinism as a term means until 2002. I began believing in a Calvinist-like theology in the late 80s.

you believed God created most of mankind with no chance or opportunity to be saved( created them for hell) and that you had no choice/decision in your salvation ?

 

[GenemZ]

Yes. . .one more time:

John 6:65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Why was Jesus saying that at that time?

Because many Jews were following him to learn the latest "work" one must do to inherit eternal life. The pharisees had the entire nation brainwashed into salvation by works.

What Jesus was doing was turning that kind of legalism on its head.

Jesus was saying that you do not do works for salvation. God must draw you and you must respond in faith.

That is why Jesus hit them with "you must eat my flesh and drink my blood." For, Jesus was speaking spiritual realities, but, the works crowd (dumb as they are) were taking him literally. Jesus finally gave them a "work" that they could not handle, nor understand. It repulsed them.

Many left at that point and followed him no more (Jn 6:66). Jesus was weeding out the dead wood people. These had rejected the drawing of God. Instead of God doing the work to save us, they wanted to do works to draw God to them!

Yes... one can reject the drawing of God. Romans 1:18-23 is one example of men being drawn and then rejecting.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and
wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what
may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal
power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what
has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks
to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory
of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and
birds and animals and reptiles.

​

Learn grace! Its enabling power. Not benign tyranny.

 

[RickReads]

you believed God created most of mankind with no chance or opportunity to be saved( created them for hell) and that you had no choice/decision in your salvation ?

I never believed in irresistible grace. I would say I had a semi-irristable grace view. I believed the elect will always choose Christ and I had concluded limited atonement based on what the bible says about the elect. I also was uncomfortably aware that the scripture appeared to teach OSAS if you were of the elect which raises issues about sinning.

At the time I was coming out of a works for salvation Pentecostal mindset that I had failed at. I became a confused combination of several different denominational theologies. I even have Catholocism in my background.

I didn't learn theology by going to school and reading books. I learned it by visiting churches, reading pamphlets, talking to preachers, talking to believers, and worshipping God with them.

 

[Clare73]

In the first eight chapters or Romans, the apostle Paul makes man’s need and God’s gracious provision through Christ abundantly clear. Paul ends chapter 8 on a high note in reflection of the endless, inseparable love God has for those who are in an abiding, relationship with Him (Romans 8:9-28). In chapters 9-11 of Romans, Paul shifts focus to his anguish over Israel.
I invite you now to the summary commentary of Romans 9 by Leighton Flowers - drum roll please
Line by Line through Romans 9

Thanks, but no, thanks.

I am corresponding with you, not with Leighton Flowers, who cannot address my responses.

Feel free to present your understanding of it, to which I will respond.

 

[Clare73]

I provided his writings.

I linked to Calvins writings on Love specifically. I demonstrated that
Calvin did not know God. Then I provide 700 pages text for demonstration.

Previously addressed. . .see post #3215.

 

[John Mullally]

How about Biblical demonstration of your assertion, without which it has no Biblical merit?

Feel free to exegete:
Romans 9:18-19,
Romans 9:20-21,
Romans 9:22-23,
being true to their words, their context and the whole counsel of God.

Found in Romans 9:22-23.
Are you saying his statement above is contrary to Romans 9:23?

Please exegete Romans 9:22-23, being true to its words and context.

Thanks, but no, thanks.
I am corresponding with you, not with Leighton Flowers, who cannot address my responses.

Feel free to present your understanding of it, to which I will respond.

How about stop wasting my time with questions you are not seeking an answer to.

 

[Clare73]

no one becomes a calvinist without reading their dogma.

Wrong. . .one understands the plain word of God, only to discover they are not the only one who understands it that way. . .Calvin, et al, also do.

 

[Clare73]

How about stop wasting people's time with questions you are not seeking an answer to.

I'm not seeking answers. . .

I'm examining the Scriptures, demonstrating what they actually present.

 

[Clare73]

Did you learn your theology from reading the Bible alone or
did you pick up your theology from different Biblical scholars?

I've read other material. . .the best book written outside the Bible being, Knowing God by J. I. Packer.
It's a classic.

 

[Clare73]

Yes. . .I can demonstrate that John 3:17 means "all without distinction."
John 6:65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
John 6:37 - "All that the Father gives me will come to me."
John 6:39 - "I shall lose none of all that he has given me."
Do "all without exception" come?. . .you do the math.

John 6:65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
Why was Jesus saying that at that time?

Because many Jews were following him to learn the latest "work" one must do to inherit eternal life. The pharisees had the entire nation brainwashed into salvation by works.

Strawman. . .which alters nothing regarding the spiritual impotence of unregenerate man.

 

[Clare73]

I never believed in irresistible grace. I would say I had a semi-irristable grace view. I believed the elect will always choose Christ and I had concluded limited atonement based on what the bible says about the elect. I also was uncomfortably aware that the scripture appeared to teach OSAS if you were of the elect which raises issues about sinning.
At the time I was coming out of a works for salvation Pentecostal mindset that I had failed at. I became a confused combination of several different denominational theologies. I even have Catholocism in my background.

I didn't learn theology by going to school and reading books. I learned it by visiting churches, reading pamphlets, talking to preachers, talking to believers, and worshipping God with them.

And reading books differs from reading pamphlets, talking to preachers and believers, how? . . .except that preachers and believers are not a printed page?

 

[John Mullally]

How about stop wasting my time with questions you are not seeking an answer to.

I'm not seeking answers. . .

Yes, that’s what I said.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, that’s what I said.

Good to know you agree. . .

Back to the point:

How about Biblical demonstration of your assertion that God is being misrepresented, without which demonstration your assertion has no Biblical merit?
So feel free to exegete:
Romans 9:18-19,
Romans 9:20-21,
Romans 9:22-23,
being true to their words, their context and the whole counsel of God.

You have not presented a demonstration of your assertion in light of the above Scriptures.