Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Hmm]

The concept of heaven and hell are unambiguously stated in scripture. Claims of ambiguity depend on one's level of understanding.

I would have thought it would be the other way around, that the greater your knowledge and understanding, the more aware you are of the underlying ambiguities, perhaps deliberately present in scripture. How else do you explain why equally informed and qualified theologians disagree on these big questions?

But if you can be specific with a concern about heaven and earth, it will give me more bone to focus on..

My main concern is why there is ambiguity around hell and whether it is everlasting. If it's everlasting, it must by definition be purely punitive (because a corrective or educative purpose would have an end point), so that's really a derivative question.

 

[ozso]

I know how thee education system works. Your pitifully, poor excuse is irrelevant. You made a claim about books but you have shown that you don't know what you are talking about.

I said schools use books to educate because you asked me how it works.

But you did quote and respond to a post addressed to Hmm with an irrelevant comment about Jesus using harsh language.

It wasn't irrelevant, you just didn't understand it.

 

[Jamdoc]

What do you think about verse 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire"? I'm not promoting it as a UR verse, I just wonder what you think about it.

I just said I don't think you can connect it with the previous verses about going to hell. But Mark is the only one that uses that, the parallel passages in the other synoptic Gospels don't say everyone experiences fire.

Because the parallel passages don't refer to anything like that and it's not a consistent message in the bible that even disciples of Jesus will be "purified by being burned by fire" which is the message of something like purgatory, I don't think in this case Jesus is saying something like that, maybe imagery like Paul used in 1 Corinthians 3.
The key being, imagery. Salt preserves, fire refines.
Maybe something connected to the imagery John the Baptist uses to describe Jesus as someone who baptizes in fire and the holy spirit.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * It wasn't irrelevant, you just didn't understand it.

It was not relevant to the post which you quoted.
Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

 

[Fervent]

Perhaps the problems you're incurring have to do with trying to use a fragment of a parable about charity to support the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

It seems to me the simplest explanation for what Jesus meant when he said "these go to eternal punishment" is "these go to eternal punishment."

 

[Der Alte]

I was answering your questions about how the education system operates as you didn't seem to know how it works. Jewish history isn't my main field of interest. That's your thing in an armchair fashion to make a ham-handed attempt at explaining what Jesus meant when he talked about Gehenna.

Your failure to comprehend my posts is not evidence that I don't know how the education system works. "Armchair fashion" and "ham-handed attempt at explaining what Jesus meant when He talked about Gehenna." Shows you haven't even read my posts. I posted archaeological studies which conclusively show that there never was a burning trash dump in Gehenna valley. There was evidence of a trash dump near Jerusalem, it was the next valley over, Kidron valley." Too bad scientific facts blows up the UR pet argument, that when Jesus mentioned Gehenna He was supposedly talking about the continually burning trash dump in Gehenna. In addition to the Talmud I also posted evidence from two Jewish Encyclopedias. I appear to be the only one providing credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical etc. evidence.

 

[wendykvw]

Given the context, and the severity of what Jesus says to do to avoid going to hell, I do not think that He's talking about the same thing as the salt that preserves against corruption in the world.

If you're connecting the two, then you'd be saying that Jesus warned about hell, using great lengths to avoid it even amputating limbs or gouging out your eye, but then said such a thing is good and used encouragement.
This would be a incongruent message.

"Cut your hand off to avoid going to this place.. but if you go there, it's good, everyone goes there anyway"
Doesn't fit together at all.

Have you noticed that those Jesus is warning about an eternal fire are those who confessed Him as Lord?
They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ And they will go away into the eternal fire. Matthew 25:44-46

 

[Hmm]

It seems to me the simplest explanation for what Jesus meant when he said "these go to eternal punishment" is "these go to eternal punishment."

The simplest explanation is not necessarily the correct one. Jesus didn't speak English so he didn't say "these go to eternal punishment". He said "kolasis aionios" which means something very different, something more like "corrective punishment/pruning lasting for an age".

The true simplest explanation is that "eternal punishment" is a mistranlation.

 

[Hmm]

Too bad scientific facts blows up the UR pet argument, that when Jesus mentioned Gehenna He was supposedly talking about the continually burning trash dump in Gehenna.

So what was He referring to when He spoke about Gehenna then?

 

[Fervent]

The simplest explanation is not necessarily the correct one. Jesus didn't speak English so he didn't say "these go to eternal punishment". He said "kolasis aionios" which means something very different, something more like "corrective punishment/pruning lasting for an age".

The real simplest explanation is that "eternal punishment" is a mistranlation.

No, insisting its mistranslation is not a simple explanation. After all, it's been translated that way independently and consistently by multiple translators and the lexical entries support it. Your translation doesn't make sense unless aionios zoe is equally "life lasting for an age," so its possible to hold that age is not eternal but the parallel presentation implies a symmetry. If the punishment ends, so too does the life promised by Jesus.

 

[Der Alte]

The simplest explanation is not necessarily the correct one. Jesus didn't speak English so he didn't say "these go to eternal punishment". He said "kolasis aionios" which means something very different, something more like "corrective punishment/pruning lasting for an age".
The real simplest explanation is that "eternal punishment" is a mistranlation.

Total Rubbish!
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of; native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[1]​

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1. Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect.

 

[Der Alte]

So what was He referring to when He spoke about Gehenna then?

In a word a place of fiery eternal punishment for the wicked which the Jews before and during the time of Jesus called both Gehenna and Hades. I can't believe you haven't seen this post before this. I have posted it several times.
My ¢¢ Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, the 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his
angels:” Matthew 25:41

• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

 

[Hmm]

The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD]

He was 120? I think I may have refuted your irrefutable sources.

 

[Cockcrow]

Have you noticed that those Jesus is warning about an eternal fire are those who confessed Him as Lord?
They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ And they will go away into the eternal fire. Matthew 25:44-46

if Jesus was teaching that even some believers will go to Hell, even those who say Lord Lord, what do you think will happen to the unbelievers? they don't have a chance, without Jesus that's it. this "everybody is saved" universal doctrine while it sounds nice, is not accurate. the Bible isn't confusing on Hell at all, people make it confusing by twisting what it says. pulling verses out of context to appear like it is saying everyone will be saved when that's not the context.

the problem is most churches today don't talk about the reality of Hell, sin, or other unpopular teachings that Jesus clearly said, they don't want to offend anybody. so when people on here talk about eternal torment some will get mad at that and talk about universal salvation. Honestly the only way to know the truth about Gods word is to put aside our personal views and biases and just believe what the text says. If we bring our own beliefs into it then we end up twisting the scriptures into saying what we want it to say, and not what is the truth of God.

I believe with all my heart in what the text says about Hell, I wasn't a big eternal torment fan either at first, but when I read the NT it just jumped out at me and Jesus was clear about Hell, I am 100% convinced that Hell is a real place of torment and Lake of Fire is also eternal punishment. I don't want to go there when I die Jesus is clear about that place, and it isn't fun. we know everybody isn't saved there are countless verses that refute universal salvation.

Jesus told the Pharisees in John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Jesus clearly refutes Universal salvation in Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus says not even all who say Lord Lord will enter Heaven, that doesn't sound like universal salvation to me!

 

[Der Alte]

Anticipating the next opposing argument.
Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem

 

[Lukaris]

Total Rubbish!
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of; native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[1]​

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1. Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect.

Correct, while my linguistic ability is almost nil, we definitely believe in everlasting judgment to salvation or condemnation. Surely, we believe the Lord knows us all, do not assume our salvation over our neighbor, & that the Lord will examine the conscience of everyone based on the light they were given ( Romans 2).

see also:

Learn: Judgement (Meatfare) Sunday - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

 

[Der Alte]

Correct, while my linguistic ability is almost nil, we definitely believe in everlasting judgment to salvation or condemnation. Surely, we believe the Lord knows us all, do not assume our salvation over our neighbor, & that the Lord will examine the conscience of everyone based on the light they were given ( Romans 2).
see also:
Learn: Judgement (Meatfare) Sunday - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Refreshing to receive a response that agrees with me. I might have to call my cardiac specialist.

 

[ozso]

Correct, while my linguistic ability is almost nil, we definitely believe in everlasting judgment to salvation or condemnation. Surely, we believe the Lord knows us all, do not assume our salvation over our neighbor, & that the Lord will examine the conscience of everyone based on the light they were given ( Romans 2).

see also:

Learn: Judgement (Meatfare) Sunday - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

The hymns are unabashedly universalist. The hymnody leads the way and is primary theology: “Let Every Mortal Leap for Joy”: Apocatastatic Hymnody in Orthodox Worship

 

[ozso]

It seems to me the simplest explanation for what Jesus meant when he said "these go to eternal punishment" is "these go to eternal punishment."

If you want to take it to that level, then the many UR verses are going to overrule the few ET verses.

 

[Fervent]

If you want to take it to that level, then the many UR verses are going to overrule the few ET verses.

I have yet to see a verse that I would consider such direct and clear support. Here we have, from Christ's own mouth, the declaration that people go to eternal punishment. UR verses are , essentially universally, squishy out of context snippets that kind of sort of maybe support UR if you look at them from the right angle.