Is it okay to simply assume that God saves all?

[AVB 2]

Ah yes, Universalism. Did Jesus give His life as a ransom for all, or just many? Matthew 20:28 “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”

Did Christ shed His blood for all? Mark 14:24 “And he said unto them, This is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many.”

Is the promise of eternal life given to all? Acts 2:39 “For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” (God does not call all men.)

Was all mankind ordained to eternal life? Acts 13:48 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

Did Christ bear the sins all mankind? Hebrews 9:28 “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

Will all the children of Israel turn to the Lord their God? Luke 1:16 "“And He will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God."

Will all enter heaven the only way Jesus provided, through the narrow gate? Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

John 17:2 “You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him." Jesus has authority over all flesh but eternal life will only be given to as many as God has given to Jesus.

If Christ gave His life a ransom for "all", if Christ shed His blood for "all", if the promise of eternal life is given to "all", if "all" mankind is ordained to eternal life, and if Christ bore the sins of "all" then "all" has had the ransom paid, all had Christ's blood shed for them, eternal life will be given to "all", and Christ bore the sins of "all" then "all" will go to heaven. Agnostics, God haters, unbelievers, Buddhists, Satan worshipers, atheists, will have no problem gaining entrance to heaven if you believe in universalism. Never mind that Jesus said that the goats in Matthew 25:41 will not make it! "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, (the goats) ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Only those who say that God's supreme attribute is love believe in the lie of universalism. God is love but He is also just. To allow "all" into heaven is not just.

 

[Saint Steven]

Ah yes, Universalism.

Stick around and you might learn something. (horrors)
Or perhaps you just stopped by to unload a few clips on us and will be on your way to the next topic? Lock and load.

I call it drive-by posting.

 

[AVB 2]

I'll stic

Stick around and you might learn something. (horrors)
Or perhaps you just stopped by to unload a few clips on us and will be on your way to the next topic? Lock and load.

I call it drive-by posting.

I will stick around. Maybe you can learn something from me.

 

[Clare73]

Stick around and you might learn something. (horrors)
Or perhaps you just stopped by to unload a few clips on us and will be on your way to the next topic? Lock and load.

I call it drive-by posting.

And I call not addressing it "an avoiding of being accountable for one's argument."

 

[Saint Steven]

I'll stic

I will stick around. Maybe you can learn something from me.

Just so you know, I'm a recovering Evangelical.

But I will listen to what you have to say.
Will you afford me the same respect?

 

[Tolworth John]

None of which changes God's legislation regarding it in Leviticus 25:39-54.

Read the article again.
There was no government handouts in those days, the rich were suposed to be generous to the poor, leaving ' gleanings etc ' in there fields but if one struck hard times it was starve or become a ' bond ' servent for p to 7 years.

Lifetime slavery was for those captured in war, for those born into it or those who chose it.

Unlike anywere else in the world Israel had rules concerning the treatment of slaves.

 

[disciple Clint]

It's the same meaning in both: ownership of a person by another person, as their personal property.

lots of difference beyond that read the history of biblical times and of the time period of the N.T.

 

[Hmm]

And I call not addressing it an avoiding of being accountable for one's argument.

Well, when someone's first contribution to the discussion is to say that you believe in a lie, it's difficult to be bothered to respond. But for you Clare...

The poster was being highly selective. If he is going to rely on the "the many" to say that not all will be saved, he must also say whether he believes that same phrase in verses such as this means that not everyone is sinful:

"But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many."
Romans 5:15

"The many" simply means people in the plural so I don't understand the point being made.

He may also like to consider verses where "all" is used instead such as this one:

"For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” 1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:22‬ ‭

 

[Hmm]

No! Christ did not come to make a heaven on earth.

But wasn't Jesus coming to earth the start of God's project to make a new heaven and a new earth? Heaven and earth perfectly met in Jesus and we ourselves are transformed into Jesus' likeness so we can help build up God's kingdom here on earth. Only God builds His kingdom but He partly uses what we do in doing this.

You can fulfill your earthly objective as a slave, so there is no reason to go after eliminating slavery on this earth, but we are to help others choose to accept God's gifts. Jesus did not spend time and energy trying to do away with slavery, since it does not prevent us in becoming Christians.

I'm not sure you can administer to someone's soul without also dealing with the social and economic factors that strangle it. To me, Jesus was not concerned about a rarified spiritual real but with the very real issues that people experience such as poverty and social exclusion and how God can meet us in these things and can transform our lives if we cooperate with Him.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * He may also like to consider verses where "all" is used instead such as this one:

"For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” 1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:22‬ ‭

This vs. is often quoted out-of-context as proof positive that all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what.
But, all mankind are "in Adam" because they are physical descendants of Adam but all men are not inherently "in Christ" that requires a personal choice from every person. Here is what Paul said about "in Christ."

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

Not in Christ, no redemption.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

Not in Christ and walk after the flesh, still condemnation

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.​

Not in Christ, the veil is not taken away, they remain blind.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

Not in Christ, not a new creature, old things are not passed away.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:​

Not in Christ, not gathered together.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

Not “now in Christ,” still afar off, not nigh.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

Not in Christ, do not obtain salvation or eternal glory.

Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

Not “in Jesus Christ” not justified by faith

1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.​

[/INDENT]
Those who are not in Jesus, God does not bring with Him.

 

[AVB 2]

Just so you know, I'm a recovering Evangelical.

But I will listen to what you have to say.
Will you afford me the same respect?

Yes I will listen. Agreement is another thing.

 

[bling]

Not quite. . .

For starters, Paul is
1) quoting several Greek poets there--Epimenides, Aratus and Cleanthes,
2) not giving divine truth, and
3) quoting them in the context of demonstrating that as we are not, so God is not, like gold, silver or stone (idols), images made by man's design and skill.
It's not about all mankind being "children" of God. All mankind are creatures of God until they are born again of the Holy Spirit and become children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

First off I am just quoting scripture.
You are trying to make a huge distinction between being "God's offspring" and being "being a child of God". Paul is using the idea of us being "descendants" of God and since we a living beings, God must be a living being and not stone or gold.
Since we are off-springs of God how much importance would God place on us (are humans of no importance to God?

Not according to NT apostolic teaching:
"The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men." (Romans 5:18)

Look at the context of Ro. 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

This is not say: all people inherit Adam’s one sin, and verse 19 explains verse 18 by telling us it is not everyone but “many” and it is many made righteous (not all) and many made sinners (not all). We might agree on the many made righteous, but who is not included in the many made sinners? I would say all those who have not reached the age of accountability and thus have not sinned yet, but who would you say?

We are all born condemned (Romans 5:18), and must be reborn (John 3:3-7) to become a son of God. (John 1:12; Matthew 5:9, 44-45; Romans 8:14, 19; Galatians 3:26, 4:5; Ephesians 1:5)

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

Here we have the classic error of taking: all, everyone, whosoever, the world, any person, any one, and so on, and always assume it is talking about everyone ever conceived, when it can be referring to just mature adults, some subset of people, the masses, Christians and so on. In this particular verse Jesus is talking to one mature scholarly Jew, Nicodemus who really knows what Jesus is talking about. A unborn child cannot be born again as an example.

Matt 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. OK, so people will poetically call them “children of God”.

Matt. 5: 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous

Ro. 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. …19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

There are a ton of behavioral characteristics of a child of God including not sinning, but do these behaviors make a person a child of God or can their be disobedient children of God?

We do want to be family representatives of God, but if we are poor representatives of God our Father, are we still a child of God like the prodigal son was a child of his father while in the foreign land being a big-time sinner?

In what ways was the prodigal son a child of his father and in what ways was the prodigal son not a child of his father while in the foreign land sinning?

Gal. 3: 26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal. 4:5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[c] Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

This is addressed to Christians.

Eph. 1: 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

God chose Christians before the creation of the world (which the Ephesians are here) to be all these things, but that does not have to mean individuals by name.

You have given lots of scripture which is totally off subject, since you are trying to address if children are innocent because they have not sinned. All these scripture references are showing mature behaviors of representatives of God’s children. If we become representatives of satan we are acting as his children at that time.

How do you feel God feels about those people who go to hell?

 

[Hmm]

But, all mankind are "in Adam" because they are physical descendants of Adam but all men are not inherently "in Christ" that requires a personal choice from every person.

Notice the "For as"...

 

[AVB 2]

This vs. is often quoted out-of-context as proof positive that all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what.
But, all mankind are "in Adam" because they are physical descendants of Adam but all men are not inherently "in Christ" that requires a personal choice from every person. Here is what Paul said about "in Christ."

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

Not in Christ, no redemption.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

Not in Christ and walk after the flesh, still condemnation

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.​

Not in Christ, the veil is not taken away, they remain blind.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

Not in Christ, not a new creature, old things are not passed away.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:​

Not in Christ, not gathered together.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

Not “now in Christ,” still afar off, not nigh.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

Not in Christ, do not obtain salvation or eternal glory.

Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

Not “in Jesus Christ” not justified by faith

1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.​

[/INDENT]
Those who are not in Jesus, God does not bring with Him.

Speaking of "in Christ" we must not forget that passage that some Christians absolutely hate and try some pretty phenomenal acrobatics to change the meaning of, and that is Ephesians 1:4 "just as He [God] chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame..." The actual meaning? Before God created the world He chose certain individuals in Christ that they should be holy and without blame. We didn't choose God nor did we choose Christ, they chose us before the foundation of the world. In other words before we even had a chance to do anything at all. We had not sinned, we had not done any good works, we had not chosen to do righteousness rather than sin, (actually we could not choose righteousness over sin until we received Christ) so it was a win win situation. God was guaranteed that Christ's sacrifice could not be ignored by the God hating enemies that we are, and we get the blessings! Praise His holy name.

 

[bling]

But wasn't Jesus coming to earth the start of God's project to make a new heaven and a new earth? Heaven and earth perfectly met in Jesus and we ourselves are transformed into Jesus' likeness so we can help build up God's kingdom here on earth. Only God builds His kingdom but He partly uses what we do in doing this..

No! Christ came to earth to show us, God Himself, train those to carry on the mission and to go to the cross.

This world is still severely messed up and will not get better, but it is also the very best place to help willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. We are here for a short time to fulfill our objective, help others in fulfilling their earthly objective and then go on to heaven.

I'm not sure you can administer to someone's soul without also dealing with the social and economic factors that strangle it. To me, Jesus was not concerned about a rarified spiritual real but with the very real issues that people experience such as poverty and social exclusion and how God can meet us in these things and can transform our lives if we cooperate with Him.

The fact there are lots of hurting people in this world provides tons of opportunities for Christians to show, experience, receive, extend, and grow Godly type Love, being more like Christ and God which is Love. People experiencing Godly type Love allows them the choice to desire that Love for themselves and to obtain that type of Love or to refuse that Love.

 

[Hmm]

No! Christ came to earth to show us, God Himself, train those to carry on the mission and to go to the cross.

This world is still severely messed up and will not get better, but it is also the very best place to help willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. We are here for a short time to fulfill our objective, help others in fulfilling their earthly objective and then go on to heaven.

Much as I hate to disagree with you, I can't agree with your categorical "No!". And this is the mainstream Christian view, as I understand it. It's not the case that heaven is a spiritual place up there somewhere that we end up going to. Rather, heaven will come down to earth, as it did with the incarnation, and God will have created His new heaven and a new earth. The incarnation was a harbinger of things to come.

Christianity has always warned about the dangers of splitting ourselves up into a spiritual and a physical side, and consequently neglecting other's physical needs as being of no importance. This is why Jesus told us to feed the hungry, house the homeless and heal the sick.

What we do on this earth really does matter. God will use every act of kindness we do in building His new kingdom.

The fact there are lots of hurting people in this world provides tons of opportunities for Christians to show, experience, receive, extend, and grow Godly type Love, being more like Christ and God which is Love.

Okay but He also wishes us to bring these things to an end. He has commanded us to comfort the hurting people of the world so that they no longer hurt and to lift the world's poor out of poverty so that these things are no more. This is all part of the kingdom building task we are charged with.

As I say, AFAIK this is the mainstream view, not a wacky invention of my own making.

 

[Clare73]

Read the article again.
There was no government handouts in those days, the rich were suposed to be generous to the poor, leaving ' gleanings etc ' in there fields but if one struck hard times it was starve or become a ' bond ' servent for p to 7 years.

Lifetime slavery was for those captured in war, for those born into it or those who chose it.

Unlike anywere else in the world Israel had rules concerning the treatment of slaves.

All of which still does not change God's legislation of slavery in Leviticus 25:39-54.

 

[Clare73]

lots of difference beyond that read the history of biblical times and of the time period of the N.T.

Did the definition of slavery change?

 

[BPPLEE]

In the past, many self-identified Christians used the Bible to justify slavery quoting passages such as Ephesians 6:5-8: “Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ”.

I can imagine them saying that's clearly "what the Bible says", and on plain reading it seems to be, but we don't interpret it that way now and we don't feel the need to defend our interpretation with passages that oppose slavery. We just feel that it's right to assume that slavery is wrong.

This suggests that our sense of right and wrong and of what's reasonable are valid ways to think about God. Which means that, when thinking about Chrisitan universalism, it's okay to ask which view just makes more sense. In general, it's okay to ask "Would the God perfectly portrayed by Jesus in the Gospels really send anyone to an eternal hell of torture/torment?. If He's omnipotent, can He not find a way to draw all people to Himself freely?"

So our starting point when thinking about universalism doesn't have to be "How does this fit into the Bible?" It could instead be "How could God possibly allow any one of His children to be be lost/annihilated/tortured forever".

It's infernalists who try to put the burden of scriptual proof on you. But rather than entering into "sophisticated" exegetical arguments it's okay to start with the assumption that if God exists, He's a God who will one day restore all His creation.

Will this include people like Hitler, Stalin, serial killers, child molesters, rapists and Devil worshippers?

 

[Hmm]

Will this include people like Hitler, Stalin, serial killers, child molesters, rapists and Devil worshippers?

Me and others have given the universalist answer to this earlier in the thread. Happy to respond to any comments you may have on that.