Compiling a list of potentially heterodox churches and denominational outliers

[The Liturgist]

There are other duties as well, but they have shifted a bit over time and I'm not sure exactly what they are now. I think (I may be mistaken) that technically royal assent must be given for the appointment of a bishop. It's generally a formality, but it's still a thing. (That is, in England. Peculiarly, in Scotland, where the Established church is Presbyterian, so is Her Majesty. And outside the UK and churches governed directly from the UK, she has no formal role at all).

Indeed so. In practice, the role of the Queen in appointing bishops has largely been taken over by HM Government insofar as the Queen acts on the advice of the Prime Minister. Interestingly, the Church of Scotland, despite nominally being a state church, enjoys much more autonomy compared to the C of E.

Now I was amused, although not surprised, to learn, that they were not only concurrently Anglican and Presbyterian, but also Lutheran, and Head of the Church of Hannover, prior to Queen Victoria, when Great Britain and later the United Kingdom was in a personal union with the Electorate, later the Kingdom, of Hannover (which of course Queen Victoria could not inherit due to Salic Law, the ancient German law prohibiting women from ascending to the throne of a large swathe of central European monarchies, and which is also responsible for the existence of Luxembourg, which was at one time under Salic Law, and thus became independent of the Netherlands with which it was in a personal union when Queen Wilhelmina ascended to the throne of the Netherlands).

By the way I was also interested to note that from the reign of King Henry VIII through that of Queen Mary I the British monarchs did use the title Supreme Head rather than Supreme Governor, which started under Queen Elizabeth, and indeed the title Supreme Governor strikes me as having a flavor of the Elizabethan Settlement.

 

[Andrewn]

Her? Who is this her?

La terre / η γη.

Gen 1:1 Au commencement, Dieu créa les cieux et la terre.

Gen 1:1 In the beginningGod created the heavens and the earth.

 

[The Liturgist]

La terre / η γη.

Gen 1:1 Au commencement, Dieu créa les cieux et la terre.

Gen 1:1 In the beginningGod created the heavens and the earth.

Just out of curiosity my friend are you Quebecois or Metis or other Francophone Canadian, or one of the large number of bilingual Anglophone Canadians? I did once have a Quebecois girlfriend, in college. Then later one of my best friends was a Cajun from Louisiana who spoke fluent French, and the Cajuns are descendants of the original Francophone inhabitants of Nova Scotia, back when it was the French colony of Acadia, a large number of whom moved to Louisiana after the English conquest of Acadia and Quebec (Lower Canada, as Quebec was then called; Ontario was originally part of Upper Canada).

Oh another strange fact: New Jersey was originally a Swedish colony, but whereas there is a pervasive Dutch cultural influence in parts of New York, I am not aware of any clear parallel in Joisey. The most Swedish parts of the US tend to be in the Upper Midwest.

 

[PloverWing]

Oh another strange fact: New Jersey was originally a Swedish colony, but whereas there is a pervasive Dutch cultural influence in parts of New York, I am not aware of any clear parallel in Joisey.

The Dutch influence shows up in some of our place names: Amsterdam, Cresskill, Voorhees, Sandy Hook (from "Sant Hoek"), the Schuylkill River next door in Philly, and so on.

 

[Andrewn]

Just out of curiosity my friend are you Quebecois or Metis or other Francophone Canadian, or one of the large number of bilingual Anglophone Canadians? I did once have a Quebecois girlfriend, in college.

I just studied French back in high school. The point is that anyone who was even minimally exposed to a foreign language realizes that objects and concepts are assigned a gender. For example, the word for "soul" is feminine in both Hebrew and Greek, even if we are talking about a man's soul.

Then later one of my best friends was a Cajun from Louisiana who spoke fluent French, and the Cajuns are descendants of the original Francophone inhabitants of Nova Scotia, back when it was the French colony of Acadia, a large number of whom moved to Louisiana after the English conquest of Acadia and Quebec (Lower Canada, as Quebec was then called; Ontario was originally part of Upper Canada).

Perhaps you mean New Brunswick. Nova Scotia, as the name indicates, was a Scottish colony.

 

[Mark Quayle]

La terre / η γη.

Gen 1:1 Au commencement, Dieu créa les cieux et la terre.

Gen 1:1 In the beginningGod created the heavens and the earth.

So, not "Mother Earth". Not a live being, like us or the angels.

 

[Andrewn]

So, not "Mother Earth". Not a live being, like us or the angels.

I could have given you a scientific answer, but you are a sola scriptura literalist. Does a dead object worship and praise God?

Psa 69:34 Let heaven and earth praise him, the seas and everything that moves in them,

Psa 66:4 “The whole earth will worship you and sing praise to you. They will sing praise to your name.”Selah

Isa 62:7 Do not give him rest until he establishes and makes Jerusalem the praise of the earth.

Jer 51:41 How Sheshach has been captured, the praise of the whole earth seized. What a horror Babylon has become among the nations!

 

[The Liturgist]

Perhaps you mean New Brunswick. Nova Scotia, as the name indicates, was a Scottish colony.

Only briefly, before the French conquered it and annexed it along with most of the rest of what are now the Maritime Provinces (sans Newfoundland, which as you are doubtless aware was a separate colony and could, in a strange alternate reality, have been an independent country after WWII), and these western French colonies were collectively known as Acadia. The history of Acadia is interesting and does also contain a tragic element with the mass resettlement of Acadiens to Louisiana, where they became known as Cajuns, and to Quebec. Wikipedia provides a good general overview: History of Nova Scotia - Wikipedia

 

[The Liturgist]

Speaking of things Canadian, after some discussion with my friend @MarkRohfrietsch I did add another United Church of Canada parish to this list, but I positively refuse to discuss the reasons why as it is simply too terrible to discuss, and another thread on the subject of that parish on this forum became locked. I know of one Lutheran Church of Canada parish which actually pronounced an anathema against this UCC parish.

It has also occurred to me that this list should not be confined to the continent of North America; as I mentioned previously, if I were authoring this list before H.G. Bishop Abanoub took over the Coptic Orthodox church in Muqattam, the impoverished suburb of Cairo where the cruel wealthy Muslim elites force a large number of impoverished Copts to survive as swineheards, living on the meat of pigs who feed in the adjacent garbage dumps (this, in the typical style of that religion, is intended to be doubly degrading, in that the Muslims regard Christians as unclean and also regard pork as unclean, so to them there is an extra element of degradation in forcing Christians to live this way, I would have included what is now the cathedral in Muqattam as it had been taken over by heterodox influences, but fortunately Bishop Abanoub, a noble and formidable hierarch, has rectified the problem.

However, if anyone is aware of any parishes, chapels, cathedrals or local churches outside of the Americas which should be on this list, I definitely want to know about them. The Remonstrant churches, which have become Trinitarian-optional and which I fear will soon become Christian-optional, which is tragic given the important contribution Arminius made to Christian thought, would be hypothetically a good choice, except the problem seems to span all six of them and is thus a denominational problem rather than a local church problem. Still, very depressing, because that denomination did accomplish so much in the 17th and 18th centuries.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I just studied French back in high school. The point is that anyone who was even minimally exposed to a foreign language realizes that objects and concepts are assigned a gender. For example, the word for "soul" is feminine in both Hebrew and Greek, even if we are talking about a man's soul.


Perhaps you mean New Brunswick. Nova Scotia, as the name indicates, was a Scottish colony.

Lots of French in New Brunswick; big annual Acadian festival there every year in St. John.

 

[The Liturgist]

Lots of French in New Brunswick; big annual Acadian festival there every year in St. John.

I just love those people. If you spend time among American Cajuns you will note they have preserved a large number of Acadian traditions, and their culture is dramatically different from the equally lovely indigenous Franco-Hispanic Creole culture of urban New Orleans (Cajuns inhabit the city and the region around it). So the classic Creole dishes like Gumbo, Jambalaya et cetera are obviously not on the Cajun menu; Cajun food rather tends to be much heartier and more reminiscent of extremely traditional French cuisine. Actually the best Duck a’la Orange I had in my life was at a Cajun restaurant. I don’t believe they eat Poutine, I think that’s either a Quebecois thing or it postdates the forced emigration from Acadia to Louisiana.

 

[Andrewn]

I don’t believe they eat Poutine, I think that’s either a Quebecois thing or it postdates the forced emigration from Acadia to Louisiana.

Both .

"Poutine is a dish of french fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy. It emerged in Quebec, in the late 1950s in the Centre-du-Québec region,"

Poutine - Wikipedia

Talking about Acadians, it has not been mentioned that the region of Acadia extends beyond New Brunswick to northern Maine, where the beautiful Acadia National Park is located.

 

[The Liturgist]

Both .

"Poutine is a dish of french fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy. It emerged in Quebec, in the late 1950s in the Centre-du-Québec region,"

Poutine - Wikipedia

Talking about Acadians, it has not been mentioned that the region of Acadia extends beyond New Brunswick to northern Maine, where the beautiful Acadia National Park is located.

Indeed, we got a slice of that territory, but sadly, as far as I am aware, there is not a significant ethnically Acadian population in Maine, or indeed anywhere in the US outside of certain parishes of Louisiana.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I could have given you a scientific answer, but you are a sola scriptura literalist. Does a dead object worship and praise God?

Psa 69:34 Let heaven and earth praise him, the seas and everything that moves in them,

Psa 66:4 “The whole earth will worship you and sing praise to you. They will sing praise to your name.”Selah

Isa 62:7 Do not give him rest until he establishes and makes Jerusalem the praise of the earth.

Jer 51:41 How Sheshach has been captured, the praise of the whole earth seized. What a horror Babylon has become among the nations!

So, you, a scientific being, claim earth is also a living being?

As for this "Sola Scriptura Literalist" that you claim I am —whatever you mean by it— it doesn't mean "stupid or superstitious slavish bug-eyed one word at a time literal, regardless of how languages work or how poetry or historical narrative or other literary forms work". It seems it may surprise you to know what a Sola Scriptura Literalist thinks.

Regardless, though, I think the verses you use in your post, and many more like them, demonstrate how dead we are, who are intrinsically but dust, apart from Christ. It is not to elevate your "Mother Earth", nor animals and plants, that I say we are not so much higher than what we consider other living things.

 

[Andrewn]

As for this "Sola Scriptura Literalist" that you claim I am —whatever you mean by it— it doesn't mean "stupid or superstitious slavish bug-eyed one word at a time literal, regardless of how languages work or how poetry or historical narrative or other literary forms work".

Most certainly, I was neither kidding nor being sarcastic. It is not only that earth is alive, but physicists describe how each atom in the universe has free will to choose entirely on their own. Atoms call on each other and fall in love.

Opinion | The Earth Is Just as Alive as You Are (Published 2019)

Love, quantum physics and 'entanglement'

Quantum Love Principles for Attracting the Relationship You Really Want

 

[The Liturgist]

Most certainly, I was neither kidding nor being sarcastic. It is not only that earth is alive, but physicists describe how each atom in the universe has free will to choose entirely on their own. Atoms call on each other and fall in love.

Opinion | The Earth Is Just as Alive as You Are (Published 2019)

We’re drifting a bit off topic here, but I do feel compelled to point out that what you state about atoms is not by any means an established principle of quantum mechanics. To be more precise, there is no evidence at all that molecules, atoms or subatomic particles have free will, and the electroweak force and quantum entanglement / superposition have nothing to do with the human construct of love. In general I have found it a good idea to not even attempt to apply quantum mechanical concepts to theology because the results inevitably wind up coming across like Deepak Chopra.

To put it another way, quantum mechanics is very useful if you are interested in constructing a nuclear reactor or exploring materials science or developing new technologies for semiconductor production, but with regards to theology, it is simply one aspect of God’s creation, an aspect that is particularly challenging for the untrained to comprehend. To quote Richard Feynman, “If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don’t understand quantum mechanics. No one understands quantum mechanics!”

 

[Andrewn]

To be more precise, there is no evidence at all that molecules, atoms or subatomic particles have free will, and the electroweak force and quantum entanglement / superposition have nothing to do with the human construct of love.

You're in disagreement w/ renowned Princeton Institute for Advanced Study physicist Freeman Dyson, Santa Fe Institute's arch complexity theorist Stuart Kauffman, master mathematician John Conway, and others.

To quote Richard Feynman, “If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don’t understand quantum mechanics. No one understands quantum mechanics!”

This is true. I'm sure other respected physicists disagree with those cited above.

In general I have found it a good idea to not even attempt to apply quantum mechanical concepts to theology because the results inevitably wind up coming across like Deepak Chopra.

I'm not familiar with Chopra's view of God. I'm going to google information about him. But, IMO, the realization that everything in God's creation is alive gives Him the glory.

Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

 

[Andrewn]

It is not to elevate your "Mother Earth", nor animals and plants, that I say we are not so much higher than what we consider other living things.

Calvin had the view that the angels basically controlled the motion of the whole world and that everything that happened around us somehow touched on the spiritual dimension of the universe.

Calvin says, “All creatures are animated by angelic motion: not that there is a conversion of the angel into an ox or a man, but because God exerts and diffuses his energy in a secret manner, so that no creature is content with his own peculiar vigor, but is animated by angels themselves."

In this, Calvin is reflecting a medieval and patristic view that goes back all the way to ancient Israel.

animated by angels themselves

John Calvin: Commentary on Ezekiel - Volume 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Mark Quayle]

Calvin had the view that the angels basically controlled the motion of the whole world and that everything that happened around us somehow touched on the spiritual dimension of the universe.

Calvin says, “All creatures are animated by angelic motion: not that there is a conversion of the angel into an ox or a man, but because God exerts and diffuses his energy in a secret manner, so that no creature is content with his own peculiar vigor, but is animated by angels themselves."

In this, Calvin is reflecting a medieval and patristic view that goes back all the way to ancient Israel.

animated by angels themselves

John Calvin: Commentary on Ezekiel - Volume 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Would be interesting to know how Calvin came up with that. He had a point in that, though I don't think it is the angels, yet they may minister somewhat in that matter.

Anything we do affects everything else. Calvin may not have known what is the smallest particle or unit of matter or force, but I bet he would have liked my notion that that smallest particle or unit is made of a very physical thing: God's love. (That notion, if it has any merit, would help explain God's intimate interest in all things and control of all things.)

Nevertheless, there is what WE humans consider inanimate, and God doesn't deal with it the same way he does with humans. But what is more, there is no use in claiming something to be doctrinally true that the Bible does not. There is no "Mother Earth".

 

[The Liturgist]

So this is very interesting, but we are a bit offtopic - do any of you have any interesting examples of specific parishes, local churches or cathedrals that have departed from the normative beliefs and praxis of their denomination / faith tradition and crossed over into the ecclesiastical equivalent of the Twilight Zone?

I did just recently add an entry to the main list but it seriously was not funny in the slightest, unlike some of the examples I have posted, which is why I did not comment on it. I considered not even adding it to the list at all it was so egregious.