Compiling a list of potentially heterodox churches and denominational outliers

[GreekOrthodox]

Do you consider this 'trance' divinely induced?

Read this story of St. Seraphim of Sarov and his disciple Nicholas Motovilov:
Saint Seraphim of Sarov: On the Acquisition of the Holy Spirit. Conversation with Motovilov

This is the climax of the conversation

"Nevertheless," I replied, "I do not understand how I can be certain that I am in the Spirit of God. How can I discern for myself His true manifestation in me?"

Father Seraphim replied: "I have already told you, your Godliness, that it is very simple and I have related in detail how people come to be in the Spirit of God and how we can recognize His presence in us. So what do you want, my son?"

"I want to understand it well," I said.

Then Father Seraphim took me very firmly by the shoulders and said: "We are both in the Spirit of God now, my son. Why don't you look at me?"

I replied: "I cannot look, Father, because your eyes are flashing like lightning. Your face has become brighter than the sun, and my eyes ache with pain."

Father Seraphim said: "Don't be alarmed, your Godliness! Now you yourself have become as bright as I am. You are now in the fullness of the Spirit of God yourself; otherwise you would not be able to see me as I am."

Then, bending his head towards me, he whispered softly in my ear: "Thank the Lord God for His unutterable mercy to us! You saw that I did not even cross myself; and only in my heart I prayed mentally to the Lord God and said within myself: 'Lord, grant him to see clearly with his bodily eyes that descent of Thy Spirit which Thou grantest to Thy servants when Thou art pleased to appear in the light of Thy magnificent glory.' And you see, my son, the Lord instantly fulfilled the humble prayer of poor Seraphim. How then shall we not thank Him for this unspeakable gift to us both? Even to the greatest hermits, my son, the Lord God does not always show His mercy in this way. This grace of God, like a loving mother, has been pleased to comfort your contrite heart at the intercession of the Mother of God herself. But why, my son, do you not look me in the eyes? Just look, and don't be afraid! The Lord is with us!"

 

[The Liturgist]

Side question: What in E Orthodoxy induces a trance and is it intentional?

I don’t think Hesychasts enter a trance; the monastic literature I have read is that the whole point of verbalizing the prayer early on, and thinking of tne words later, is to avoid a trance. One EO writer, it may have been Fr. Andrew S. Damick, likened a trance to putting your brain in neutral, and it is viewed as extremely dangerous because it makes us vulnerable to suggestion, whether from demons directly, or, because demons prefer we do their work for them, more commonly at heretical and non Christian religions. Christian Science is doing that, and also, so are services of the J/Ws, which function in the same manner.

 

[The Liturgist]

Do you consider this 'trance' divinely induced?

Its not a trance, but if a hesychast sees the uncreated light of Tabor, it is the result of years of faithful obedience and synergy between their faculties and the Holy Spirit.

Also, Fr. Seraphim Rose warned of the dangers of trances.

 

[The Liturgist]

Read this story of St. Seraphim of Sarov and his disciple Nicholas Motovilov:
Saint Seraphim of Sarov: On the Acquisition of the Holy Spirit. Conversation with Motovilov

This is the climax of the conversation

"Nevertheless," I replied, "I do not understand how I can be certain that I am in the Spirit of God. How can I discern for myself His true manifestation in me?"

Father Seraphim replied: "I have already told you, your Godliness, that it is very simple and I have related in detail how people come to be in the Spirit of God and how we can recognize His presence in us. So what do you want, my son?"

"I want to understand it well," I said.

Then Father Seraphim took me very firmly by the shoulders and said: "We are both in the Spirit of God now, my son. Why don't you look at me?"

I replied: "I cannot look, Father, because your eyes are flashing like lightning. Your face has become brighter than the sun, and my eyes ache with pain."

Father Seraphim said: "Don't be alarmed, your Godliness! Now you yourself have become as bright as I am. You are now in the fullness of the Spirit of God yourself; otherwise you would not be able to see me as I am."

Then, bending his head towards me, he whispered softly in my ear: "Thank the Lord God for His unutterable mercy to us! You saw that I did not even cross myself; and only in my heart I prayed mentally to the Lord God and said within myself: 'Lord, grant him to see clearly with his bodily eyes that descent of Thy Spirit which Thou grantest to Thy servants when Thou art pleased to appear in the light of Thy magnificent glory.' And you see, my son, the Lord instantly fulfilled the humble prayer of poor Seraphim. How then shall we not thank Him for this unspeakable gift to us both? Even to the greatest hermits, my son, the Lord God does not always show His mercy in this way. This grace of God, like a loving mother, has been pleased to comfort your contrite heart at the intercession of the Mother of God herself. But why, my son, do you not look me in the eyes? Just look, and don't be afraid! The Lord is with us!"

I have an icon of Fr. Seraphim and venerate him more than any Western saint since St. Gregory Diologos, and in addition to my regular lestovkas, have one configured for his prayer rule.

However, I did not intend to imply that hesychasm was a trance. My point was that Orthodox monastics are aware of what can cause a trance, including inattention during prayer, and avoid it.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

That's good. I was a bit concerned. I was reading Fr. Seraphim's words as if a trance is being induced. I have heard Hasychasm described this way by nonpractioners (the light becomes self-induced by physical methods and by processes). The quote from Fr. Seraphim seemed to suggest as much.

Forgive me, I am recovering from a year+ of being inundated with mysticism, some of it Roman Catholic, some of it not. I felt like I was losing my mind and did somewhat in all the subjectivity. I therefore I have become very squeamish with the idea of visions, perceptions, ect. Like, for instance, I feel manipulated when told that while praying the rosary, I am to think (imagine) the various scenes of the lives of Christ and Mary. I use to write poetry, I no longer do so. I don't like employing my imagination at all anymore as it was abused by former friends. I just have a lot of baggage.
That's why I am enjoying my time in Lutheranism for however long I am there. Lutheranism is objective to a default. They condemn both pietism and mysticism/fanatism. You can find it everywhere, like in the revivalist movements of mainstream Christianity. So, I don't mean to speak ill of Catholicism, only to say, that this has been my experience. It must also be mentioned that my formers friends did not appreciate or become Catholic via the objectivity of Thomas Aquinas. I myself, really value scholasticism, while recognizing it's weakness to go too far and needing to be reigned in by Scripture.

I have an icon of Fr. Seraphim and venerate him more than any Western saint since St. Gregory Diologos, and in addition to my regular lestovkas, have one configured for his prayer rule.

However, I did not intend to imply that hesychasm was a trance. My point was that Orthodox monastics are aware of what can cause a trance, including inattention during prayer, and avoid it.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Also hesychism is practice under the guidance of a spiritual father. While Orthodox laity may pray the Jesus prayer it is not in a hesychist format.

 

[The Liturgist]

Also hesychism is practice under the guidance of a spiritual father. While Orthodox laity may pray the Jesus prayer it is not in a hesychist format.

Indeed, and this further protects monks who practice hesychasm from falling into states of spiritual delusion, like the trance state, which was historically avoided in Eastern Christianity, because aside from the monastic experience indicating it was misleading, there was also the historical case of Montanus, who claimed to be the Paraclete, and his three female followers, who would enter into trances, and as a group they and their disciples, unfortunately including Tertullian, are believed to have travelled to Asia Minor, which is of course right in the historic heartland of the Greek, Syrian and Armenian churches, before the Turks killed most of them in 1915 and the remaining Pontic Greeks were forced to emigrate to the Kingdom of Greece in the population exchange with Turkey following WWI.

 

[The Liturgist]

Added an entry on First Methodist Church in Seattle, Washington, West Hill, Toronto, Ontario, and edited the entry on the Cathedral of St. John the Divine to reflect new information.

If anyone knows of any churches doing anything questionable, whether that is abuse of parishioners, members or attendees, especially vulnerable people such as children, the elderly, the mentally and physically ill and the disabled, this is of the highest priority. Also, any churches using New Testament apocrypha, like the false or corrupted Gospels of Thomas, Mary, Philip, etc, in worship services, and any churches referring to God as “Mother, daughter, and holy ghost” or as “Creator, redeemer, sanctifier” and any churches using dubious and innovative creeds which appear to contradict the Nicene Creed, and any churches engaging in novel or disturbing practices, and any churches engaging in syncretism with non-Christian religions, are of primary interest. Lastly, any churches with clergy who are atheist or who actively promote views contrary to the Nicene Creed and the ChristianForums.com Statement of Faith.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

By the way, since we seem to be going more broad, maybe explanations as to why some denominations who are not considered Christian on CF.com are in fact not Christian, but are rather really seriously dangerous, most especially the J/Ws and Christian Science, which ban blood transfusions and discourage medical care altogether, respectively. Fortunately, Christian Science is dying off, but I consider them culpable in thousands of deaths, including that of beloved puppet artist Jim Henson, whose creative team not only gave us the Muppets and Sesame Street (I love the muppets, especially Waldorf and Statler), but in partnership with Lucasfilm, working with pupeteer Frank Oz, gave us Yoda. So Jim Henson was kind of like a competent and non evil version of the villain from Being John Malkovich, the unsuccessful puppeteer played by John Cusack. But he grew up in Christian Science, and as a result, even though he had resigned in 1975 (his memorial services were at the Cathedral Churches of St. John the Divine in NYC, and St. Paul’s in The City of London, so I would assume he became Episcopalian or Anglican or was somehow linked with them?), he did not feel the need to go to a doctor when he had a severe sore throat. He did not go to the hospital even when he started to cough up blood on the morning of his death, and told his wife he thought he was dying; two hours later he was persuaded to take a taxi to the hospital, where he had a respiratory arrest shortly after arrival and was put on a ventillator; it turned out his death was a massive strep throat infection that if treated earlier, would have likely have had no long term impacts on his health.

To me, this suggests that even former Christian Science adherents are at critical risk due to brainwashing; Christian Science church services do not jave a sermon, but instead consist of a member who reads the Bible and another member who reads a corresponding chapter of Mary Baked Eddy’s Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures. This pattern is hypnotic and can due to the repetition induce a trance, as any Eastern Orthodox or, for that matter, Anglican Benedictine monk can tell you (I am so sad the OHC Mount Calvary monastery in Santa Barbara closed...)

We also should not forget how huge Christian Science was as recently as the early 90s. I remember in my youth seeing Christian Science Reading Rooms in strip malls, and I can remember just 15 years ago The Christian Science Monitor was a well respected newspaper. But the stories kept breaking about Christian Science Practitioners, who you pay to pray, failing to procure emergency medical treatment for children and sick adults who later died, and one even wrote in her official Christian Science Practitioner’s Notebook “I think (the patient) is going to pass tonight.” Which happened, without her taking any action to stop it.

Samuel Clemens, also known by his riparian psuedonym Mark Twain, which is a call made on riverboats when in water of safe depth, without risk of running aground or worse, crashing on a snag (dead submerged trees killed more beautiful paddlewheelers than anything else on the Mississippi), wrote at length 120 years ago trying to warn people that Mary Baker Eddy was a dangerous fraud, and it seems we only got the message 100 years too late, and even now, there are still hundreds of Christian Science parishes and reading rooms in operation - they may be down, but they are not out, and I think the tragic death of Jim Henson raises the real specter of brainwashing.

The funnist thing about C.S. Churches is the wheel chair ramps.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

As a former C.S. in Jurnior high, I never went into a trance because I was checking context of the Bible text and comparing how there was no correspondance to the readings. One was on I Cor 15 and Resurection was redefined as the raising up of C.S.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The funnist thing about C.S. Churches is the wheel chair ramps.

It took me a few minutes to figure this comment out. Once I realized the abbreviation was "Christian Science" I instantly got it, because if I'm not mistaken they believe these kind of ailments are just in your head right? Well that is what I recall people saying about them. So yeah the wheel chair ramp should not be there instead people should be telling them to "snap out of it, get up and walk".

 

[The Liturgist]

As a former C.S. in Jurnior high, I never went into a trance because I was checking context of the Bible text and comparing how there was no correspondance to the readings. One was on I Cor 15 and Resurection was redefined as the raising up of C.S.

Could you explain this a bit more? Do Christian Science people routinely enter trance like states? I have read that their services consist of two lay readers reading selected passages from the Bible and Mary Baker Eddy’s stupid Science and Health: With Key to the Scriptures, which appropriate for a cult responsible for thousands of deaths, that is neither Christian nor Scientific, is a work that would more accurately be called Superstition and Illness: With Key to Charlatanism.

I am thankful you got out of it. My mother had a friend, a lovely lady, who was raised in this cult but escaped it. I hate calling it C.S. because to me that means either CS Lewis or Computer Science, two of the loves of my life.

 

[The Liturgist]

.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Could you explain this a bit more? Do Christian Science people routinely enter trance like states? I have read that their services consist of two lay readers reading selected passages from the Bible and Mary Baker Eddy’s stupid Science and Health: With Key to the Scriptures, which appropriate for a cult responsible for thousands of deaths, that is neither Christian nor Scientific, is a work that would more accurately be called Superstition and Illness: With Key to Charlatanism.

I am thankful you got out of it. My mother had a friend, a lovely lady, who was raised in this cult but escaped it. I hate calling it C.S. because to me that means either CS Lewis or Computer Science, two of the loves of my life.

There is a Reader like a Pastor. Two or more readers are used when he is on vacation.
Many of those in the congreation are seniors and are asleep most of the time. I never witnessed a trance state there. Just bordom.

 

[actionsub]

There is a Reader like a Pastor. Two or more readers are used when he is on vacation.
Many of those in the congreation are seniors and are asleep most of the time. I never witnessed a trance state there. Just bordom.

I visited a CS church once in connection with my job. The boredom from listening to the readers put me in as close to a trance as anything I've ever experienced!

 

[The Liturgist]

I visited a CS church once in connection with my job. The boredom from listening to the readers put me in as close to a trance as anything I've ever experienced!

So are you suggesting CS actually induces a trance like state through boredom and this is how it retains members, apart from or in addition to their bogus doctrines? Or rather were they seriously into it and you just got bored to tears, as they say?

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way, if any of you have experienced any wacky, cultish or problematic chapels, churches, cathedrals, et cetera, please tell me, privately if you wish. I saw some concerning posts on a Pentecostal group called The Church of All Nations. I am not however criticizing denominations but individual local churches that have serious problems.

 

[The Liturgist]

Surely there’s got to be some concern among clergy and laity… It’s hard to believe all Episcopalians are this incredibly liberal and confused.

They aren’t. There are I think two Episcopal churches on the list, and they are extreme outliers. When I was sick on Christmas Day I watched the service from the Congregation of Old North Church, a part of our American heritage, home of the famous lanterns (one if by land, two if by sea), which is Episcopalian and solidly traditional. And I had a great worship experience recently in their parish in St. George, Utah. And a good friend of mine is a conservative Episcopalian priest in Louisiana. And perhaps my favorite church to watch online is the Anglo Catholic Episcopalian parish of St. Thomas 5th Ave, which has a world-leading music program, the only one in the US that is competitive with the cathedrals in the Church of England (it has a full boys choir, and T. Tertius Noble was one of many British musicians who worked there; he later became organist at York Minster, the second highest ranking Anglican cathedral in the UK after Canterbury and ahead of St. Paul’s in London).

Frankly, I think every denomination has a parish which should be on this list. Until recently, when His Holiness Pope Kyrill appointed a lovable and firery bishop, H.G. Ananoub, to take over the diocese of Muqattam, an actual ghetto in the religious sense ( like what we used to do, to our eternal shame, to Jewish people living in Europe) in which Coptic Christians are forced to live off of subsistence swine hearding and pork meat due to religious discrimination, for the location is the main landfill of Cairo, and the pigs eat from that, and when swine flu was a major problem, shortly before he was overthrown, President Mubarak killed all their pigs, causing a famine - at any rate, until 2015 or 2016 when Bishop Abanoub was appointed, this cathedral did not even superficially resemble a Coptic church except for having a Coptic congregation. But there were no icons or cross or iconostasis, the cathedral was just an ugly auditorium with a stage that had a late 1980s aesthetic. This has been rectified, but my point is these parishes can happen in any denomination and my inclusion of a church on this list usually does not indicate a denominational problem, the exception being independent churches not affiliated with a denomination, like Westboro Baptist or Bethel Church.

 

[Mark Quayle]

By the way, if any of you have experienced any wacky, cultish or problematic chapels, churches, cathedrals, et cetera, please tell me, privately if you wish. I saw some concerning posts on a Pentecostal group called The Church of All Nations. I am not however criticizing denominations but individual local churches that have serious problems.

Somebody recently had a whole thread devoted to that. Can't remember what it was called, or where it was posted.

 

[The Liturgist]

Somebody recently had a whole thread devoted to that. Can't remember what it was called, or where it was posted.

It was in this forum but unless there is a specific local church in the denomination thats a particular problem I don’t want to cover it here. I am only interested in churches that are radically failing to meet the expectations either of their denomination, or of the prevailing opinion of the members of the Christian Church around the world, the mystical body of Christ.